1st time boat builder needs advice on design

[azcanoe52]

As the title says I will be a first time boat builder.
Since my wish list for this boat is long, I have decided to build two different boats
because the use will be so different and I can learn from the first.

So here is the first
I live in Arizona - not known for water or wooden boats
but there are several lakes that allow you to shore camp.
so
easy and inexpensive to build
can carry 4 adults and camping gear for a weekend
use a electric trolling motor - outboards not permitted
on some of the lakes
can be rowed in a pinch, if the batteries die
speed not an issue as there would not be a current to fight
or any particular hurry to get to the campsite
small chop if the wind picks up

I have been looking at the Garvey skiff 15' 9 as I like
the square bow for loading and unloading gear
and the flat bottom for beach landings
and am thinking of adding a canopy(correct word?)
that will serve as shade and perhaps hold a solar panel
like you would see on a launch
and for fun a small square sail in front for downwind
sailing only

if you think the Garvey fits the conditions then
i could also use whatever advice you can freely give
as who has the best detailed plans and can provide the
support a first time builder would need.

the second will be a boat that i can sail the Sea of Cortez
and Lake Powell in Southern Utah, thus the different uses
and why I'm thinking I will need two seperate boats

Thank you in advance for all your help
azcanoe52

[johnw]

If you build the 18' sharpie skiff in American Small Sailing Craft it will do both jobs. A Caledonia Yawl would also work, but you'd have to build a motor well into it, and it's not as easy a build.

[TerryLL]

Welcome to the forum.
Garveys are excellent beach campers, with their overhanging bows and wide forward decks, which make loading and unloading easy. They generally have more bearing forward, providing a more stable hull.

I particularly like the Ben Garveys of Doug Hylan. The smaller one at 15'9" X 5'7" would be the size you mentioned. It's a bit wide to row comfortably, and a bit heavy, but could be done. Four adults and a load of camping gear would certainly tax the capacity of most boats under 16'.

As for building, the plans for this boat are available from our host and are described as above average in detail and suited for a builder with basic skills, certainly a good design for your first build.

Here's a link to the designer's site:

http://www.dhylanboats.com/

[Thorne]

Azcanoe -- from what you've described, you really need is some sort of electric launch -- canopy and all.
http://elcoelectriclaunch.com/images/LEAF%20AND%20JIM%27S%20smcs%20rev.jpg

To meet the "simple build" element, consider some of the Glen-L, Michalak, and other stitch and glue/screw plans -
https://www.glen-l.com/designs/special/special-images/dsn-lovb.jpg
http://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=480

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/dani_jay/index.htm
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/rdgrs.jpg
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm


You did a great job on the specs! What we don't know is the range and distance you need the craft to travel, and how quickly you need the batteries to recharge.

As serious problem is that if you spend the night at a place without electric power, you may not be able to get the battery banks fully recharged overnight.

Solar panels can recharge batteries during use up to a point, but you quickly reach the limitations of current (no pun intended) technology where the weight of the panels limits the ability of the motor to move them -- and the boat, passengers, etc.

The garvey shape may be perfect, but you may also have to design the boat to carry the batteries as ballast. Many garvey-like hulls are designed to carry their main ballast as passengers -- up high, not in the bilge.

Wooden Boat mag in the Fall of 05 had an article on an electric launch designed for use on Australian rivers -- worth a look. The batteries are built into a box keel, and the solar panels are on the roof of the cabin.

[Chip-skiff]

Get the 2009 issue of Small Boats (from Wooden Boat mag) and look at Hylan's Hird Island Skiff on p. 36— it has a nifty, hidden electric motor that can be lifted for rowing or sailing, is said to row well, and can be sailed as well.

It looks a bit small for four adults and gear, but it might be scaled up. Or some features could be adapted to a larger Hylan design.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Here's what you are up against.
If you want a boat that will row well you need a hull with specific characteristics. Long and narrow with plenty of rocker and a transom that sits above the water at normal loads. If you try to get by with an inappropriate hull carrying max weight you will know what you did wrong before you have rowed the first mile.
To get 4 people plus camping gear into a proper rowing hull with enough room for comfort means you would need a fairly long hull. Also there needs to be room for the rower to function comfortably. Since you might need two rowers to move such a hull you would need even more room.
Next, electric power has distinct limits. The faster you go or the more weight you try to move the faster the battery will go down. If you are using a marine battery you are not supposed to drain it beyond a certain percentage of it's capacity. You can go to multiple batteries but it's more costly, adds a lot of weight and takes up more space.
If you want to include a sail option that's another problem. You need enough room at the stern so the tiller is not impeded and you will have to dedicate space amidship for a centerboard or daggerboard case and a mast partner to hold up the mast.
One more thing. "4 adults is" a rather imprecise measure. Especially in America. The weight of the passengers adds to the burden of the boat and should be considered when choosing a hull.
To get an idea of how much room is available in the boat of your choice chalk out a full-sized top view of the hull on the garage floor.

[azcanoe52]

Thank you all for your time and advice in answering my post.
All are good ideas and considerations that I will follow up on

Here is a summary of my thoughts now and any additional
comments will be appreciated.

The range of my travels would be 10 miles roundtrip max
If 4 adults and camping gear are beyond the capacity of the
Garvey skiff then they can paddle their own kayak while
I haul some of the their gear. Multiple trips are also possible
So I'm thinking I would need
up to 4 batteries max, but have not yet worked that out.
I would only row to get back to the boat ramp and not
have to depend upon a tow. The sail would be for downwind
only thus i'm thinking I do not need a keel or alot of balast
and it would save me from rowing.

I would like to take some boatbuilding classes in NE to improve
my skills, but that is not in reach at this time. Thus I find myself
frozen into inactivity. Not enough skill, or at least confidence
in the skills i have, limited budget or at least not wanting to spend
alot of money on materials to end up with a boat of poor workmanship,
and not knowing enough about the boat designs
to know how they will handle and meet my needs.
I learn best by doing and thus my desire to build something
that at least i will use for now, gain skills in boatbuilding
as well as gain a better understanding of boat design. Then
as my knowledge and skills increase, consider building a
proper sailboat for those weeklong trips on the Sea of Cortez.

so with this addtional information, does the 15' 9 Garvey skiff
at least pass the common sense test?

Thank you all

[Chip-skiff]

Looked at Hylan's website. The Ben Garvey seems intended for short-haul workhorse duty, ferrying people and cargo from shore to ship and vice-versa. But it's designed for a high-powered outboard (both in terms of weight distribution and behavior). With its broad beam and wide flat bow, it'd be a test to row against wind and waves. Ten miles? No thanks—

Of the plans on that site, the Westport Skiff, scaled up, might be a better choice for your intended use. While not a fast-looking hull, it does at look rowable, with room for camp gear. An electric motor would drive it.

The sunroof you mention is called a 'bimini' and there are folding models widely available. You'd not want it up while rowing (unless you had a steady following breeze) and it could be a worry if you caught a gust on the beam. I suppose flexible PV panels could be added, but you'd need several to get a useful recharging current.

Reckon I'd start with a good hull & oars, and add the other bits as I went along. There are quite a few designs that offer a choice of oars, sail, or a small motor, with a reasonably simple build.

You might get more longterm satisfaction from the Core Sound 15 or a similar design. http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/index.html It's said to be quick under sail, not bad to row, and can mount an outboard— one of the new high-powered electrics such as the Torqeedo could work nicely. It might also be enough boat for Dominy Sump (aka Lake Powell) or the Sea of Cortez.

[Bruce Hooke]

Keep in mind that most powerboats are designed for relatively high-powered engines. If you are planning to run on electric power only then it seems to me you need something that is more the shape of a large rowboat, since such a boat is designed to operate relatively slowly on relatively little power.

From a more technical perspective, most smaller open motorboats are designed to get up on a plane, which calls for a pretty powerful motor. Boats that are designed to plane tend to be less efficient at low speeds. You want a boat that is most efficient at low speeds.

I can't recommend a specific design but I would look at rowboats that are designed to use a small outboard motor on occasion, even if your plan is to use the motor most of the time and only row in an emergency, because that should get you a boat that will be most efficient at the speeds a smaller electric motor will push the boat at.

Before actually committing to building a particular boat try to make sure you have some idea how far you are going to be able to go for a given quantity of batteries so that you know you have a viable solution. The designer should be able to help you with this math (if the designer is still around).

A boat basically designed for rowing should also fairly gracefully accept a small sail designed mostly for downwind use. I would not go for a square sail...they require a lot of lines to control and are thus more complicated to manage. I would go for something like a sprit rig. In the days before engines in small boats it was common to put up a small sail on a row boat that did not have any ballast or any real keel or centerboard and it worked just fine.

What this is all getting to is that I don't think a Garvey is the best solution. I think you want something narrower than a Garvey that will be easier to push through the water at low speeds.

P.S., if you plan to get a high powered electric motor that can get the boat up onto a plane then pretty much everything I just said is moot, but since you said "trolling motor" I presume that is not your intention.

[johnw]

A human being can produce as much as a quarter of a horsepower. If you're going 10 miles in a day, you won't be using a planing electric motor. In fact, you'll be using a motor about as powerful as a human being. Look for something that doesn't put the transom in the water, because that will produce too much induced drag. I'd look for something that rows well, carries the load you want, and you can also attach an electric motor to.

[azcanoe52]

thank you all
you have convinced me that the Garvey may indeed
be easy to build, but probably not suit my needs
I will continue to look at the designs you have suggested
and go from there.
Just fearful of getting in over my head (pun intended)

thank you all again

azcanoe52

[TerryLL]

The garvey is a great little work boat, load carrier, and outboard skiff. But it's a poor rowboat. It can be maneuvered with oars, but rowing a small, wide garvey any distance, especially when loaded, will not make you happy. You'll very soon be looking for a different boat, or an outboard.

Sounds to me that what you need is a real rowboat, and one that can carry some gear and a second rower. A five-mile row in a nice slippery narrow hull with two rowers is a piece of cake.

The boat below is a stretched light dory, 19'6" X 4'. It's very easily built and requires minimal boatbuilding skills to put together. It'll take two rowers, and a passenger in a pinch. It would be a great little gear-hauler in company with a couple kayaks.

Plans and building advice can be found in Instant Boatbuilding by Dynamite Payson.



http://www.kolbsadventures.com/complete_quarterhighview.jpg

[Thorne]

One of the problems you are facing is that a pulling (row) boat carrying 4 adults and all their camping gear is at the top end of what most of us consider "rowable" == in other words, too big and too heavy to row very far.

You can try double rowing, but in my experience it requires too much from casual or inexperienced rowers in the way of coordination == if you don't row together the oars tangle and everything stops.

You might be better with a hull designed for low power use AND sailing -- Michalak's Dani Jay might work for your needs. Easy to build, can be motored or sailed, and should carry the required load of crew and gear -
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/dani_jay/dj3.gif
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/dani_jay/index.htm

[azcanoe52]

All of you have been very helpful and now realize I was sailing
down the wrong path.

I think for this winter, I will read
Jim Michalak - Boatbuilding for Beginners
and then progress to
John Brooks - How to build a glued-lapstrake wooden boat
(i like the look of a lapstrake)
and
Greg ? - Building Small Boats

I have written down all of your suggestions, so that
I can better review and pick a design that will work

thank you again for your time and advice

azcanoe52

[TerryLL]

Brooks and Hill on lapstrake construction is excellent. Might also look at Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding Manual by Iain Oughtred. A quick look at some very classy glued-lap boats can be found here:

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatsearch.asp

[johnw]

Take a close look at the Caledonia yawl. It's not the easiest build, but it will carry the loads you want and an electric outboard will push it along. The also sail reasonably well, and are seaworthy.

Here's one owner's site.

http://www.mavc2002.com/caledoniayawl/