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cathouse willy
12-10-2008, 07:46 PM
The forecast for Friday says "rain or snow", so..... Its time to install the winters that came with the car.They go on the rear and they're not marked as to which side they came off . Is it important to keep them on the same side,direction of rotation and all? Is it possible to tell by looking at tread wear?

BarnacleGrim
12-10-2008, 08:02 PM
You need winter tires for the front wheels as well.

Tinman
12-10-2008, 08:06 PM
Liek all radials, snow tires are to be rotated front t back and not side to side as Barnacle indicates.Tread wear should be even across the face if the alignment is inn order. If you have scalloping, cupping, shoulder wear, or any other kind of deformity, have your suspension and front end alignment checked. I alos totally agree about the necessity of 4 shows per car. It makes a world of difference.

Woxbox
12-10-2008, 08:08 PM
Direction of rotation used to be important, but they say it doesn't matter anymore on account of better manufacturing processes. But I agree with Barnacle that mixing tires front and back can lead to some weird car behavior. You need traction to make the car turn, too.

BarnacleGrim
12-10-2008, 08:09 PM
I just measure the wear on each tire and put the best wheels on the rear. Just pay attention to the rotational direction if you have that kind of tires (look for an arrow, if there is none it doesn't matter).

If your car is FWD, only rear winter tires won't work. If it's RWD it will work, but only until you need to make a turn.

Concordia...41
12-10-2008, 08:11 PM
Winter tires? :confused: Really? What a concept :D:p

Dan McCosh
12-10-2008, 08:51 PM
A mismatch between the tire grip at front and rear can cause quite serious handling issues, particularly when it is slippery.

cathouse willy
12-10-2008, 08:58 PM
Ah Florida land of gators water moccasons and armadillos.Folks there have fireplaces?? It's the only way to roast the gators when it's hurricane season and the power is out :D

Concordia...41
12-10-2008, 09:00 PM
Ah Florida land of gators water moccasons and armadillos.Folks there have fireplaces?? It's the only way to roast the gators when it's hurricane season and the power is out :D

Touche' ;)

paladin
12-10-2008, 09:07 PM
Dunno roast armadillo critters......turn them loose in a cage where you're raising game pheasants.......won't bother the pheasants, but will have cat fer lunch if one of the evil critters tries to have pheasant for lunch.....neat critters...
and dunno knock the gator tail...it's good roasted or breaded suthrin style or made into soup mit noodles and the hide makes nice boots.

Concordia...41
12-10-2008, 09:09 PM
Surely this deserves some kind of thread drift award. :D

capt jake
12-10-2008, 09:14 PM
Winter tires? :confused: Really? What a concept :D:p

Hush you!!! :D Next you will be telling us it is sunny too! ;)

BrianW
12-10-2008, 09:22 PM
Winter tires? :confused: Really? What a concept :D:p

After 20 years in Alaska, we've never switched to winter tires either. Just plain all season radials.

That includes the years in Fairbanks.

Vince Brennan
12-10-2008, 09:23 PM
Slicks!

Save all the trouble of figuring out which way the tread has to go, gives interesting handling in snowy/wet conditions and they're approved by the Darwin Society of America!

(And, Margo? I love ya, but bite me.)

rbgarr
12-10-2008, 09:23 PM
In the South you just take the white walls off after Labor Day, don't you know.

Concordia...41
12-10-2008, 09:35 PM
Good grief guys :p :rolleyes:

It just seems like if you have winter tires, you must have spring and fall sets too. ;) :p Maybe something pretty and floral for Easter?

heeee he heeee ROTFLMAO :p

S/V Laura Ellen
12-10-2008, 09:37 PM
Good grief guys :p :rolleyes:

It just seems like if you have winter tires, you must have spring and fall sets too. ;) :p Maybe something pretty and floral for Easter?

heeee he heeee ROTFLMAO :p

Exactly, there's winter tires and all season (three season).
Floral is only for VW vans and the WBF bus..

oldsub86
12-10-2008, 09:44 PM
Are they directional? If so, you can tell which belongs on the right or left. We have Goodyear Eagle Ice Radials on one of our cars and the tires are directional. They have an arrow that tells the rotation.

Randy

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-10-2008, 10:20 PM
It's my understanding that radial tires should always be mounted to run in the same direction.... whoever took the tires off in the spring should have marked them. When rotating radials, you're supposed to rotate front to rear, not side to side.

As a general rule, yes, but not always. My tires were wearing sawtooth something awful (fore/aft, not laterally from alignment), huge noise, just like a wheel bearing going bad, everything else was good; bearings, alignment, shocks, ball joints and bushings, etc. Seemed to be from prolonged high-speed running with the tread surface trailing the tire centerline (greater at high speed), thus the tire outline becoming D-shaped (exaggerated), causing the tread blocks to retreat away from the concrete much more quickly in back, wearing the front of the tread block faster. Or so I theorized. So I rotated them left/right to even the wear. I figured if the spare can work either side, it can't be that bad. Plus, I couldn't rind any mechanical rationale for keeping them only on one side, even though the rule has been around for years. (I couldn't reason a rationale only from the difference in the sidewall and belt construction between radials and old bias-plies.) Anyway, rotating them worked like a champ. Well, lo and behold, months later, was looking through a manual on my car, Haynes one I believe, and I'll be darned if it didn't recommend diagonal rotation on my car (left-rear to right-front, etc.) as a rule, not in specific response to any problem noted. I've been doing it ever since, with no ill effects in durability nor behavior of the tire during emergency maneuvers. Done regularly, prevents the sawtoothing and tires are quiet. The above would apply only to treads that are NOT unidirectional, i.e., designed to run in one direction only (arrow on the sidewall); you have to be able to reverse the rotation direction.

By the way, most folks don't know that winter tires are a softer compound (much superior to winter tires of decades ago), and are prone to overheating and failure during summer heat (unless you live in a cold region), and faster wear than normal tires.

Tylerdurden
12-11-2008, 05:53 AM
Tires only take you so far, a good set of chains is a must if you get serious and cannot rely on getting towed. That and Posi.:rolleyes:

Michael Beckman
12-11-2008, 06:53 AM
Never bothered with special tires. Extra weight in the back if im particularly worried. Never had an issue with uncontrolled sliding. Stupid people just drive to fast on the ice..

Few years back we had a nasty freeze here. I was driving to my girlfriends place, and saw a car in the ditch every few hundred feet. That road had a 50mph speed limit and lots of shade.. think i did about 25 through most of it.

Tylerdurden
12-11-2008, 07:25 AM
I only bother with special tires if there is a need. If not I wait until its good to drive. I am hunting for a 12k hydraulic winch right now which is damned handy in bad conditions. I missed one at auction last week and found out later the clown who outbid me thought it was electric and was pissed. I offered him my top bid but he said I want what I paid for it which was almost what I could buy a new one for.:eek:

Popeye
12-11-2008, 07:35 AM
In the South you just take the white walls off after Labor Day, don't you know.

good one :D

Popeye
12-11-2008, 07:39 AM
Is it important to keep them on the same side,direction of rotation and all?

important if they are 'unidirectional' tires , in which case you will note a raised arrow on the side wall

otherwise dir'n rotation no biggy

LeeG
12-11-2008, 08:46 AM
Never bothered with special tires. Extra weight in the back if im particularly worried. Never had an issue with uncontrolled sliding. Stupid people just drive to fast on the ice..

Few years back we had a nasty freeze here. I was driving to my girlfriends place, and saw a car in the ditch every few hundred feet. That road had a 50mph speed limit and lots of shade.. think i did about 25 through most of it.

speaking of gfs, how's the dating scene?

Popeye
12-11-2008, 09:09 AM
Never bothered with special tires. .. think i did about 25 through most of it.slower speeds and more tension is not a substitute for a good set of winter tires

i give myself more margin for unpredictable driving conditions (aka winter) , you should be able to keep up with the flow of traffic , otherwise you could be more of a hazard than you realize to yourself and other drivers

http://www.flr-scca.com/rally/2004/rallycross/zimmer1.jpg

Popeye
12-11-2008, 09:20 AM
Extra weight in the back if im particularly worried.

a myth

Popeye
12-11-2008, 09:53 AM
bit of a no-no using all season tires for winter driving

latest evidence shows a tire compound can 'freeze' and harden at low enough temps, making for poor traction regardless of surface contact

invest in a winter tire with the proper temperature and traction grade

huisjen
12-11-2008, 09:53 AM
About a month and a half ago we took Sarabelle's xA in because one tire kept leaking. The tire guys pointed out that she needed new rubber all around. It was a little early, but it seemed a logical time to put on snow tires, as long as we were changing tires anyway. We got her the most aggressive studded snow tires they had in her wheel size. Now it sounds like four bad wheel bearings, but it's just tire noise.

I'm thinking we should get a spare set of wheels for her, and mount them with summer tires. Getting tires changed in the spring is no big deal, but in the fall, too many people put it off until the first storm, then everybody heads to the tire place and wants their snow tires put on now. With the snows still mounted on a different set of rims, I can just change them in the driveway if need be.

Dan

Popeye
12-11-2008, 09:58 AM
less wear and tear on the tire bead ; saves you having to break them off the rim

extra set of steel rims and tires makes sense

huisjen
12-11-2008, 10:03 AM
Of course Reverend Sarabelle drives 30k miles a year, so two sets of tires will last her two years. It's not a lot of extra wear on the bead. Mostly it'll be a convenience factor.

Dan

Popeye
12-11-2008, 10:09 AM
what a lot of people don't realize , is, tire installers are not by trade mechanics

c'est la vie

Popeye
12-11-2008, 10:18 AM
the new quebec winter tire law (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081211.wtires11/BNStory/National/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20081211.wtires11)

first in canada or na for that matter , read the rational

boylesboats
12-11-2008, 11:21 AM
I luv my hard riding 8 plies bias thread tires on my truck....:D... long wearing, cheap, and getting hard to find in tire shops...

BrianW
12-11-2008, 02:00 PM
bit of a no-no using all season tires for winter driving

latest evidence shows a tire compound can 'freeze' and harden at low enough temps, making for poor traction regardless of surface contact

invest in a winter tire with the proper temperature and traction grade

Probably correct. But even in Fairbanks, where I was a winter driving instructor in the Army (doing 360s in deuce-and-a-halfs on an ice pad) and driving in -60 we always ran all-season tires on at least one of the vehicles. On the other, usually my truck, I had mud or all-terrain tires.

Needless to say, no matter what tire, or studs used, the 4 way stops which were obviously Zamboni prepped hourly were always a challenge. :)

Flat spotting overnight was a real issue at those temps. The first mile would be pretty bumpy. The roads would be so slick down our street, and wheel bearing so stiff, I've seen rear wheel drive cars going down the street with a locked up front tire. Not until they hit better pavement would it start to turn. :) Four wheel drive was the cure to that situation.

Popeye
12-11-2008, 02:06 PM
Flat spotting overnight was a real issue at those temps.

you are speaking of the 'bias ply' nylon tire with inner tube days

radial tires are better now

htom
12-11-2008, 02:15 PM
I run Nokian WR all year around in Minnesota. Best rain tire I've ever driven. Nearly the best snow tire (that's the Nokian Hakkapeliitta family.) Not an ice tire; for that there are chains. Not studded; if it's that icy, I put on the chains and really slow down.

You need good tires on the front -- even with rear wheel drive -- because that's where most of your braking occurs.

Look at the tire. If it has a rotational direction arrow, obey it; if it has "Inside" or "Outside" marks, obey that too. The tire maker knows more about this detail than the auto maker. Spares (these days) are not meant for long-term use, and so are "neuter" in such things, but because of that, they are not as balanced on the car as a tire set's mates would be.

BrianW
12-11-2008, 02:15 PM
you are speaking of the 'bias ply' nylon tire with inner tube days

radial tires are better now

Nope. All my trucks had radials. It were cold at times. The winter of 1989 was one of the worst.

Popeye
12-11-2008, 02:18 PM
. All my trucks had radials. It were cold at times. they shouldn't freeze like you describe , unless they are wrong temp grade or inflation problem

are they a 'high mileage' , aka 'touring' tire ?

Popeye
12-11-2008, 02:21 PM
I had mud or all-terrain tires. like all season , m+s tires are not winter tires , there is a difference

http://www.tirerack.com/images/winter/photos/tech/severe_snowflake.gif

"In 1999, The U.S. Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The new standard helps ensure that drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction."

"A mountain / snowflake symbol branded on the tire's sidewall identifies tires that met the required performance in snow testing. The mountain / snowflake symbol was expected to be fully implemented on new tires by now. There are still some winter tires in the marketplace that meet the requirements to display the mountain / snowflake symbol but the molds used to make the tires were produced before the symbol was developed."

Popeye
12-11-2008, 02:32 PM
m+s

"The original definition of M+S tires is based on the geometry of the tread design. The M+S designation was first used to differentiate the knobby, bias ply tires intended for use on muddy, and/or snow-covered roads from the straight rib tires used on early cars or trucks. Tires with tread designs that meet the definition may be branded with the letters "M" and "S" in several different ways (e.g., M&S, M+S, M/S, MS, etc.) at the discretion of the tire manufacturer.
When early radial ply tires were also found to deliver more snow traction than the straight rib, bias ply tires, the tire companies introduced "All-Season tires." Supported by advertising, All-Season tires have presented an unspoken promise that they, throughout their life, can provide traction for all seasons...through spring's rain, summer's heat, fall's cooling and winter's snow. While this combined offering has made All-Season tires popular, many drivers have learned that a geometric definition doesn't guarantee winter snow and ice traction."

Bruce Taylor
12-11-2008, 03:51 PM
Studies show 90 per cent of motorists in the province already use winter treads.

But studies have also shown that the remaining 10 per cent of non-users are responsible for nearly 40 per cent of wintertime accidents.

Long ago, when I worked for the Quebec Safety League, I used to send out scary press releases full of stats like that. We cooked up the scare-data, as needed, using whatever we could find in the "research room"... mostly brochures and booklets dating back to the mid forties, when cars were carved out of mastodon dung.

The newspaper would often quote us, without bothering to check our sources.

Of course, I'm just bitter 'cause I had to sink a bunch of money into new tires this year.

Captain Blight
12-11-2008, 04:01 PM
the best snow tire (that's the Nokian Hakkapeliitta family.) Best winter car (CAR, not truck) I've ever owned was a 1991 BMW 325iX, the AWD. I had Hakkapeliita II all the way around on that thing and ran Dunlop D40M2 in the summer. Never ever ever was at a loss for traction. Well, sometimes in the middle of a powerslide....

Nokian Hakka IIs are a product I have, and do, unreservedly recommend. Not all that expensive and boy howdy, they do work fine.

BrianW
12-11-2008, 04:35 PM
they shouldn't freeze like you describe , unless they are wrong temp grade or inflation problem

are they a 'high mileage' , aka 'touring' tire ?

You really should visit the arctic in the winter. ;)

If I recall, and Fairbanks was 17 years ago, I used to run General APs and MTs along with the 32x10.5 version of BFG All terrains. The wifes truck started life wife with whatever Chevy was putting on their '87 S-10 Blazers. Later it was the same with her '91 Bronco (factory rubber.)

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-11-2008, 05:37 PM
Winter tires? :confused: Really? What a concept :D:p

Oh shaddup...:mad::mad::D

ishmael
12-11-2008, 05:54 PM
I've got a decent set of all season radials on the Corolla that get rotated once a year whether they need it or not. This new truck, a four by Tacoma, has Goodyear TAs, whatever that means, but a radial tire. They're not super aggressive, but if there's a lot of snow you can bet that's what's going to the grocers.

As to the original question, take 'em to a good tire place and ask. They'll probably be able to tell by looking. A good idea, which a good tire place will do, is a few simple marks in chalk. Ya know, left, right.

boylesboats
12-11-2008, 06:09 PM
you are speaking of the 'bias ply' nylon tire with inner tube days

radial tires are better now

Radial tires?
I have issue with them gettin' bruised after hittin' chuck holes in the street while under load...
They get some nice goose egg bumps in them, then tires ain't no good after that.. bump bump bump bump.... kapoooow... sudden release of 60 psi.....

So I went back to "old school" bias plies/tubeless...

cathouse willy
12-11-2008, 08:03 PM
Well they're on.I figure I had a 50% chance of being right.The tires came unmarked with the car. It's an rwd Volvo wagon so I moved the newer rears up and put the snows on.A few hundred lbs over the rear wheels (it does help) and I'm good to go.I had some winter driver training on a frozen lake years ago. One of the things it taught me was to disengage the rear drive wheels going into a corner. An amazing improvement,course these were rwd vehicles, I'm not sure if it helps with the dreaded front wd.

Popeye
12-12-2008, 09:52 AM
Best winter car (CAR, not truck) I've ever owned was a 1991 BMW 325iX, the AWD. I had Hakkapeliita II all the way around on that thing and ran Dunlop D40M2 in the summer. Never ever ever was at a loss for traction. Well, sometimes in the middle of a powerslide....

Nokian Hakka IIs are a product I have, and do, unreservedly recommend. Not all that expensive and boy howdy, they do work fine.heavy gear , performance winter radials , some days a bit of drift can actually be a good thing

best winter tire in recent memory i ran on was a 'continental' , can't recall the model , the tire would literally 'pump' snow and slush aside , no studs , strapped to a vw gti

these days i got a private brand 'saxon' tire on my sooby, made by cooper tire .. i think , aggressive tread , deep sipes , 55 series in a honking big 16" , lotsa dry grip , so far so good

michelin x ice is also getting good reviews

boylesboats
12-12-2008, 10:36 AM
If it get that icy... Either chains are going on, or I'll just stay at home

BrianW
12-12-2008, 02:29 PM
Chains just aren't a good option for a condition that lasts all winter.

capt jake
12-12-2008, 02:31 PM
Just put on new all seasons for the wife's car. All seasons are the only way to go IMHO.

htom
12-12-2008, 04:10 PM
Chains (or studs) don't really help in snow (and there are those who claim that they make things worse.) Chains or studs are very good on ice; but if there's ice about, with good snow tires, slowing way down is almost effective, and you can stop and put on the chains.