Please Help! 1967 Chris Craft Cavalier needs rewire, I'M LOST!

[sykoken]

Greetings, i'm sorry to be so desperate on my first post, but i'm hoping that the knowledgable members of this forum can help me. Here's my situation;
I just purchased the above 37' Cavalier, which was at first sight, in ok shape. I should also note, this is my first boat, and I know absolutely nothing, but have been absorbing as much as possible in the short time i've had with it. I purchased this book, The Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual, which has been very very helpful. However, the electrical system on my boat doesnt look like its been upgraded since this 60's. Even more alarming, when i opened the panel, i saw nails, screws and even aluminum foil completing some circuts. Not counting the power outlets wired with thin guage speaker wire.
I do have a basic knowledge of automotive and home electrical systems, so the 12v and 120v concepts make sense. The issue i'm having is putting that into practice with my antique boat, with its archaic wiring. I know there isnt a step by step process to accomplish what i'm looking to do, but if anyone out there has any guidance whatsoever i would be deeply greatful. PLEASE HELP!

[The Bigfella]

I'm halfway through doing the same job on a 50' crusier.

The first "half" was the easy bit.

I ripped it ALL out.

I'm rebuidling around Blue Seas components.

[sykoken]

Well sure, I think I could manage the first half on my own, ripping wires out is my forte, but the whole re-instalation is starting to intimidate me. I felt very comfortable wiring my home, and past cars, but something about being on the water, playing with electricity, is a little daunting. Even if i were to rip out all the wires and start from scratch, I'm worried I'm going to ground something wrong, or not install it as well as it was before I ripped it out. I mean, things work, I have some AC and some DC power, but not a complete system, some outlets work, others dont. Its all kind of overwhelming, even with the knowledge i do have... But I refuse to pay someone for something i KNOW I can do, with just a little guidance...

[glennmajestic]

Well we can give you a little info here but try to find someone local who could offer advice too.It is also easier to help if you post pictures and tell us what Engine,alternator,electronics;etc;
The first thing you need to know( assuming you are completely green) is that because of the fact that boats don't have a common ground through the body like a car,you will need to run all your wires to the appliance and back.That means twice as much wire as a car for the same systems.Next you will have several separate systems ie;starting system,charging system,house system,ac/dc shore power and possibly solar charge or wind charge.now the best way to deal with wiring is one system at a time,although making your own wiring diagram for each system separately is the best way you can also just make a single diagram for all.once you know where you must run the wire you need to figure out what to run them to,breakers,fuses isolators and switches.Always give yourself approx 25% more switches and breakers than you think you will need for expanding and repairs. this should give you some basics to think about for now if you need more info like type of wire or such just ask.

[pcford]

Unfortunately, the best thing to do is to rip all the old out and put new in. Boat wiring in the old days was not very good, and it usually, as you suggest, gotten a lot worse over the years.

Buy a good book on boat wiring....maybe talk to somebody and rebuild the wiring. It's pretty tedious but pleasant enough work.

[ben2go]

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Boat-Wiring-John-Payne/dp/1574091638/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228950016&sr=8-7

This is a good book to help get a fresh start to a safe rewire.

[sykoken]

Thanks guys for your responses. I appreciate it. I do know that the system needs to be replaced. That I am ready for. Like I said I got the Boatowners Electrical manual, which is great, but after reading all the info in it, I feel even more confused than before. I've been trying to see if there was anyone in my area to hang out with that could point some things out, but as of right now i'm on my own. I'll get some pictures taken of the AC and DC electrical panels, and engines and compartments. I think they are the original engines installed by Chris Craft, 2 Corvette 327's. One runs, and the other is going to be rebuilt, after the electrical system.
Let me put this out there, like you said, I want to work with one system at a time. I currently only have one new battery, that has cranked my engine once to be sure it runs, then uninstalled. The DC system is currently being run by a bad battery and a battery charger, being powered by the AC system hooked up on shore. I want to start with rewiring my DC system, which right now, only seems to be hooked up to the engine that doesnt run, freshwater pump, stereo and head, the engine that does run seems to be seperate from the main DC system. I understand the concept of there needing to be hot from battery to the component, and neutral from the component back to the battery. But, I read that the ground also needs to be grounded somewhere else, like a grounding rod. But not the engine, or else it promotes corrosion, I think.
Anyway, shouldnt my DC system be capable of powering more than just those few things? What about when i'm out to sea, how will my my lights, fridge or anything run without onshore power? Is that where the DC-AC converter comes in? If so, how the heck does that really work?
Sorry guys, i know you cant help much without photos, so i'll cut it out here, any help with this little info?

[dsherburn]

What I have done is to create a diagram of the existing system. Trace the wiring and create an electrical schematic. Once you have this, you can replace one "system" at a time, using the proper type and gage of wire.

Unless you trace what's there and create a schematic, your best best is to rip it all out and design your own from scratch.

[dsherburn]

Oh, and I just ordered the book referenced above....looks like a good reference!

[Gezzunder]

You could always use my schematic as a reference
┌-----/float switch/---------(+)
bilge pump
└----------------------------(-)

:)

[sykoken]

You could always use my schematic as a reference
┌-----/float switch/---------(+)
bilge pump
└----------------------------(-)

:)

haha, i think this might be the MOST helpful!

[Gezzunder]

Seriously, colour code all your wiring. It will pay off in the long run. Use a conductive bar with multiple terminals to tie in your various circuits, one for positive(supply), one for negative(return) and one for neutral(ground or earth). Take the time to tin all wires before crimping terminals, they will last longer. If you have a wet boat, you can get non conductive grease (laughingly referred to as 'man fat') to cover terminals.

If a circuit needs to be fused, use the simplest type available. Breakers are nice but eventually they will corrode and fail, usually at sea and then you're stuffed. Those nails and cigarette papers probably got the last owner back to shore (and then the slack **** didn't replace them).

Read up on galvanic corrosion. Especially where it applies to engines and stern legs/shafting

Calculate loading on the system. How many lights, how much power do they use? Do you use a radio? How much juice does it use. Work out your total power useage under normal conditions (called your 'Hotel Load') and then add at least 20% to that. Now you select your battery(s) to suit. Remember that there will be wiring losses, select the appropriate wire gauge/material.

Plan your wiring loom so that it all runs down one side of the boat as much as possible. Makes it easier to trace faults later on. When you connect to a piece of equipment, make sure you have a fair stand-off or slack so that any movement won't break the wire. (it also allows for reterminating later if necessary) If the equipment (load) moves, your engine for example, cable tie a loop in the wire and suspend it halfway between the last mounting point and the load for mechanical relief.

Most importantly, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING.

[sykoken]

Does anyone have a schematic of their own custom DC system? Maybe that would help me. I feel like I have all these pieces of a puzzle and i'm just missing one piece to put it all together....

[sykoken]

Use a conductive bar with multiple terminals to tie in your various circuits...

Thanks for the info, i think the first part that sticks out, is whats a conductive bar?

[ben2go]

What I have done is to create a diagram of the existing system. Trace the wiring and create an electrical schematic. Once you have this, you can replace one "system" at a time, using the proper type and gage of wire.

Unless you trace what's there and create a schematic, your best best is to rip it all out and design your own from scratch.

I agree.Without having my hands and eyes on it,I can't really offer much help.I have run into one thing that will throw a monkey wrench into things,and that is some boats have the on/off switches on the ground/neutral in the DC system.Dunno if it was factory or hack job.Grounds/neutral are usually black,white or green in a DC system.Be aware that black is the hot wire in AC system.White is usually neutral in AC system.Red is usually the hot/positive in DC and I have seen orange and pink used.Most DC systems have a grounding block for all DC grounds.It is usually close by the DC fuse panel and possibly behind it.From the grounding block should be a thick battery cable leading back to the battery.In a good ground set up there should be no breaks or splices.I'd help if I could get there but I'm on the southeast end of the US.About those engines.It is usually cheaper to have a good automotive engine builder/rebuilder to handle the Chevy/Ford/Chrysler marine engines.Call and ask around.They are around and don't always advertise.

[CharleyMac]

I suggest you spend some time browsing through the information available at Ancor Marine Wire. There are a number of tips, specs and standards that should help you make good choices. No financial interest and so forth but they have helped me with some problems I've encountered. Ancor is part of Marinco to help with the search.

CharleyMac

[Iceboy]

sykoken, hopefully one of the Seattle forumites will check in soon. I find it hard to believe that you cannot find some local guidance in Seattle of all places. Not trying to piss in your soup or anything but going about this without pictures and specific questions is like trying to fix a software problem through a call center in India. It really is easier than building a wiring harness for a car. I.m sure you could find boat wiring books in the Seattle library. Just read up and go for it.

[prestonbriggs]

Thanks for the info, i think the first part that sticks out, is whats a conductive bar?

A bus bar, or distribution point.

Keep reading, it gets clearer after a while. Sketch your own schematics as you go, with your components. You'll have to throw the drawings away, but you'll learn more each time. After a while (say a month), you'll start to have a workable plan.

You want to sort out the batteries, a chore all by itself. Do you have 1, 2, more? Might have a battery for cranking and a house battery (for lights and such). Want a scheme in place to charge them. Want to be able to easily disconnect all the batteries (an isolation switch).

Want to think about stuff that's on all the time, even when you're not around, like the bilge pump and maybe a vent or 2.

Want to think about DC stuff (12 volt or 24 volt? Choose!) versus AC stuff. On my boat, it's all 12 volt DC, and therefore pretty simple. Sounds like your boat is fancier, so you'll probably have AC. This implies an inverter, driven by the DC system and producing 120 volts AC. The AC system is almost complete separate and can be wired in after you're happy with the DC (of course, you'll want to plan ahead).

I have 3 fuse boxes on my little boat:


things that are always on (bilge pump, head vent, solar panel)
things on the port side of the boat
things on the starboard side of the boat

The fuse boxes are spread around a little, to help achieve short wires. Positive wires are protected by fuses, so that if they break or I put a nail in one, the fuse melts versus starting a fire. Think of protecting the wires (versus protecting components).

I like Ancor for wire and connectors.
FTZ also makes good stuff.
Blue Seas for fuse boxes and such.
They have helpful websites.

Mostly, keep reading until it becomes clear.

Preston

[sykoken]

sykoken, hopefully one of the Seattle forumites will check in soon. I find it hard to believe that you cannot find some local guidance in Seattle of all places. Not trying to piss in your soup or anything but going about this without pictures and specific questions is like trying to fix a software problem through a call center in India. It really is easier than building a wiring harness for a car. I.m sure you could find boat wiring books in the Seattle library. Just read up and go for it.

I know, I'm an ass for not being prepared. I knew pictures would be the next step, but in my frantic search I found this forum and started typing away. I'll get pictures posted soon, I'm at work right now and away from the boat.

[Gezzunder]

Conductive bar? Terminal strip, bus bar, hunk of brass or other conductive metal with threaded holes for screws to connect wiring.

http://www.frenzie.com/WiringBusBarNew.jpg

Not a bad job, quite neat for the most part but you can see it wasn't planned out completely by the way some wires appear to have just been stuffed in later. You can see how he's used terminal strips to hook everything in.

[sykoken]

A bus bar, or distribution point.

Keep reading, it gets clearer after a while. Sketch your own schematics as you go, with your components. You'll have to throw the drawings away, but you'll learn more each time. After a while (say a month), you'll start to have a workable plan.

You want to sort out the batteries, a chore all by itself. Do you have 1, 2, more? Might have a battery for cranking and a house battery (for lights and such). Want a scheme in place to charge them. Want to be able to easily disconnect all the batteries (an isolation switch).

Want to think about stuff that's on all the time, even when you're not around, like the bilge pump and maybe a vent or 2.

Want to think about DC stuff (12 volt or 24 volt? Choose!) versus AC stuff. On my boat, it's all 12 volt DC, and therefore pretty simple. Sounds like your boat is fancier, so you'll probably have AC. This implies an inverter, driven by the DC system and producing 120 volts AC. The AC system is almost complete separate and can be wired in after you're happy with the DC (of course, you'll want to plan ahead).

I have 3 fuse boxes on my little boat:


things that are always on (bilge pump, head vent, solar panel)
things on the port side of the boat
things on the starboard side of the boat
The fuse boxes are spread around a little, to help achieve short wires. Positive wires are protected by fuses, so that if they break or I put a nail in one, the fuse melts versus starting a fire. Think of protecting the wires (versus protecting components).

I like Ancor for wire and connectors.
FTZ also makes good stuff.
Blue Seas for fuse boxes and such.
They have helpful websites.

Mostly, keep reading until it becomes clear.

Preston

Thanks! I think thats what i needed, someone to tell me just to relax, and everything will be ok... I'm very able, and it is starting to make sense, i think my biggest fear is screwing something up beyond repair, I.E. catching my boat on fire and sinking it, lol.

So here is what i have so far, extremely simplified;

battery(+)-----> fuse panel----->electronics------>panel------->grounding block------>battery(-)

is that the basic theory?

[ben2go]

Here's another good idea that I regularly use.When I wire a boat,usually a fishing boat or pontoon,I run 3 extra positive and grounds to areas where accessories maybe added,such as helm,head,and birth.I connect them at the fuse block or breaker block,leave the fuses out,and cap the ends to protect them.That way you or another installer have them available.I always run an 8,10,12 gauge wires for this.It's helped me many times.You could always make out a wire diagram on paper or pc,then have a marine electrician look it over.This could be free to a few dollars,but it'd be cheaper than hiring out the job.Electrical work can get expensive quick.

[C. Ross]

Agreed with consensus above.

Only disagreement -- go ahead and rip out connections at bus bars and circuit breakers. But leave the runs to far ends of the boat in place until you are ready to pull new wire. Don't worry too much about labelling anything -- you'll know what it's connected to at the far end.

Connecting new wire to old and pulling it through is MUCH easier than trying to push in new wire or fooling with an electrician fish tape trying to pull new through odd holes in odd angles. This is hard-won experience -- the mechanical part of installation is knuckle-breaking if you don't use the easy tricks.

[sykoken]

Conductive bar? Terminal strip, bus bar, hunk of brass or other conductive metal with threaded holes for screws to connect wiring.
Not a bad job, quite neat for the most part but you can see it wasn't planned out completely by the way some wires appear to have just been stuffed in later. You can see how he's used terminal strips to hook everything in.

Is this just a type of distribution panel?

[Gezzunder]

Is this just a type of distribution panel?

yes

[ben2go]

Yes that is it except you can avoid the second run to the panel unless that is where your grounding bar is.

This battery(+)-----> fuse panel----->electronics------>panel------->grounding block------>battery(-)

or this if the grounding bar is outside of the panel battery(+)-----> fuse panel----->electronics------>grounding block------>battery(-)

[ben2go]

Conductive bar? Terminal strip, bus bar, hunk of brass or other conductive metal with threaded holes for screws to connect wiring.

http://www.frenzie.com/WiringBusBarNew.jpg

Not a bad job, quite neat for the most part but you can see it wasn't planned out completely by the way some wires appear to have just been stuffed in later. You can see how he's used terminal strips to hook everything in.

I have seen a heck of a lot worse.

[prestonbriggs]

So here is what i have so far, extremely simplified;

battery(+)-----> fuse panel----->electronics------>panel------->grounding block------>battery(-)

is that the basic theory?

Simplified is good. The panel might obviate the need for the grounding block. Add annotations for wire color, wire gauge, and the size/type of connector at each end of each wire.

Wire gauge is determined by the required amperage and the length of the wire (but be conservative). So you'll want to start collecting specs on all the equipment.

Size of connectors from wires and maybe from measuring or maybe from reading details on the equipment.

Open an account at Fisheries Supply. Tell them you just bought a boat and you've heard they offer a discount to help you get it outfitted. You can order stuff from their website during the day when you're supposed to be working, then pick it up from will call on the way home. Saves shipping.

Preston

[sykoken]

I have seen a heck of a lot worse.

Just wait until i get pictures up of what mine looks like... You'll be disgusted!

[sykoken]

I want to say thanks so much you guys! I was never expecting this much of a response! I have to leave for the day, and my internet at home is down (damn clearwire), but i hope to get back bright and early in the morning with your responses. Thanks again all!

[ben2go]

Just wait until i get pictures up of what mine looks like... You'll be disgusted!

Can't wait.

DC Master Control Panel
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/ben_2_go/electrical_panel.jpg



Terminal Block
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/ben_2_go/TerminalStrip.jpg


I usually install the marine panels with the fuses right beside the switches.You may want to put your fuses else where.I like a central location for my fuses with labels.

[Iceboy]

Don't worry too much about labelling anything -- you'll know what it's connected to at the far end.

I'll agree with this during the pulling but after the wire is pulled I like to label both ends. I label each wire as it's pulled to avoid confusion. It will save having to dig out your schematic later and anyone working on your system will thank you for it later. Helps if you label the spares as well.

[Salty Sailor]

I test each wire then pull it and label it. I also give it a tick on the label if its operational. If it not I leave unticked until I track down the fault.
It can all seem a bit daunting at first but its like a ball of knots, you unravel it one knot at a time and it will begin to make sense.
Also a multimeter that can test connectivity is esential to find matching earth wires and faults. You may need a wire to use as an extension for your multimeter to bridge large distances.