How foolish am I? Let me count the ways...

[mdevour]

Greetings once again, folks.

I’m the damnfool who’s set out to build the Weekend Skiff as my very first boatbuilding project with my daughter and 3 of her friends from school. See our web site (http://www.eskimo.com/~mdevour/boatproject.html) for more about our story.

The project’s been great so far. smile.gif The damnfool part is that in my early ignorance I went and decided to make a gaff rig sloop out of this simple hull. The designers only provide some general guidance toward a modest lug sail or sprit rig with unstayed mast, so it means I’m creating this sail and rigging plan entirely from scratch, with some ‘book larnin’ and no experience – and no plans for how to prepare the hull for the more ambitious rig.

From what I’ve learned so far, I need to be concerned with guying the mast, which implies chainplates, stemhead fitting, headstay and shrouds plus their fittings; peak, throat, and headsail halyards, and their associated blocks, and belaying points; gooseneck, gaff jaws, topping lift and reefing lines; and sheets for headsail and main, with tackle, fairleads and cleats for same.

Not to mention the fact that I don’t know how well this hull will handle what-all I’m designing for it, or whether it’s going to be an unstable, unbalanced, twitchy and unmanageable nightmare… :eek:

Here is a sketch of the boat I made for the web site. Some of the lines and details are not particularly accurate, but it will give an overall impression of the rig:
http://www.eskimo.com/~mdevour/other_pictures/outline_sketch.gif

The mainsail is very close to 75 square feet and the headsail 25. I’m planning a single purchase on both the throat and peak halyards and a single block for the headsail halyard, all of which will be made of rope. The mainsheet arrangement shown has been suggested to me as a good one for this size boat. The rearmost block runs on a line traveller passed from quarter to quarter. The picture shows mast hoops, but at this point I'm planning to try lashings first.

I have a set of sails that were made approximately to these sketches which I’d like to use, but nothing is cast in stone, particularly if it affects safety or basic seaworthiness.

I know I’ll need to do a lot of playing around with cheap line and tackle to make sure things run fair and stuff is positioned so it will work. There will be quite a few details to work out, many of which I’ll need help with, I’m sure. :rolleyes: Before I can complete the hull I’ll also need to make it ready for the fittings the rig requires.

So it’s more than timely for me to vet this with you folks. I will be grateful for any general comments, questions, suggestions or cautions you may have for me at this point.

Mike

[BillB]

You might want to dig up a copy of

The Gaff Rig Handbook
by John Leather

Here is a link over to Amazon to give you some info:
The Gaff Rig Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0937822671/qid=1048077689/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-2992057-0029664?v=glance&s=books)

I have a few friends that own this book and have liked it.

cheers,
Bill

[mdevour]

Hi Bill,

A couple of months back I learned that the fellow who I'd depended on to answer these kinds of questions for me had become unavailable due to family and job problems, so, belatedly, I've been researching all my questions from scratch.

My private library has grown to include:

Leather's Gaff Rig Handbook
Callahan's Learning to Sail
Rössel's Building Small Boats
Cunliffe's Hand, Reef and Steer
Taylor's Knowing the Ropes

... and most recently:
Chapelle's Boatbuilding
Bray's How To Build the Haven 12 1/2 Footer

On my short list to look at:
Skene's Elements of Yacht Design
Toss's The Complete Rigger's Apprentice

Add to that a dozen more books from the public library over the last year, a copy or three of Wooden Boat, and searches of the archives here and you'll know the basis I'm working from.

So the short answer, Bill, is that Leather and others are the reason the design is as far along as it is.

However, all that doesn't translate into the judgment needed to apply the many bits and pieces I've gleaned to our boat at it's current stage of construction and developing a completely new rigging plan for this hull from scratch.

What no one can appreciate is how many questions I'm not going to have to ask, because I've been doing my homework.

What's missing is the chance to sit down with somebody knowledgeable over coffee and a couple of sketch pads, to answer my questions, ask the ones I haven't thought of, and hammer my thinking back into perspective wherever I've gone off track.

What could be accomplished in a couple of hours face to face is going to require pages of tedious postings taking hours to prepare.

As some have said on other topics, this isn't the space shuttle we're building. But I've got four 12 year old girls depending on me to help them finish the boat they've started and get it in the water by May. I'm determined that that'll happen one way or another, but how well it turns out and the number of mistakes we have to fix along the way will depend on my finding answers.

So I ask the indulgence of the forum crew to ask some dumb sounding questions, and some tediously detailed questions, and some frankly bizarre questions, and not be taken to task as much as I deserve for going so far beyond the designers' intent on my very first boat building effort.

Please make us a project here for a couple of weeks. I promise, for my part, to make sure you all share in our progress and success.

Thanks, Bill.

Mike

[Todd Bradshaw]

For what it's worth, my first impressions looking at the sailplan were as follows:

The entire sail plan looks a bit high off the water. I'd be inclined to lower the jib tack almost down to the stem and take the main boom with it if using existing sails. If not, the main seems pretty short on the luff and could possibly be lengthened on the luff for a bit more aspect ratio. It's a pretty low aspect ratio sailplan, but I don't think you'll gain anything except heeling force by having it so high above the hull.

It also looks like you could use more masthead height above the jaws. There is quite a bit of tension on a peak halyard and it might give your peak tackle a more horizontal pull and more power. In addition, the entire mast seems a bit skinny. You don't want to get into a situation on a fairly simple gaffer where you are dealing with a bendy mast that is changing your sailshape with every puff or lull, especially with rope halyards which can throw a fair amount of halyard stretch into the mix.

That is an awful lot of mainsail roach to try to support with only two battens. I would not be shocked if it flapped either above the top batten or below the bottom batten. The bottom batten is at an odd angle and really should be 90 degrees to the leech (like the other one) unless it was originally designed angled to provide clearance for a second reef. Not a big deal, but getting them at the proper angle means you may be able to shorten the batten a bit to save weight.

I think the aft end of the mainsheet system is fine, but on a boat this size the boom is going to be pretty long and skinny. That mid-boom block is going to bend the boom like crazy when you sheet-in hard. This will flatten the bottom half of the sail a lot, quite possibly more than desired. If the boom meets the mast with jaws, I'd move that block forward and hang it under the jaws to provide luff tension to weather, yet not bend the boom so much (you would probably also want to mount a mid-boom fairlead to help keep the sheet from hanging down into the cockpit when it's under less tension).

Even if the boom meets the mast with a gooseneck and luff tension is fixed and kept constant by throat halyard tension, I'd still probably move the boom block up to within a foot or so of the gooseneck to keep from bending middle of the boom so much and pulling the draft out of the foot every time you sheet-in hard.

As you said, this is a preliminary drawing and may not be accurate in all respects, so some of this stuff may or may not apply, but those are the things that got my attention on first glance. Use what you can and ignore the rest. There isn't enough information present to really say anything about what the rig does to the helm balance or the boat's stability under sail.

[JimD]

Twer it me, I'd go back to a simple lug rig before your weekend skiff takes six months. smile.gif John Leather's gaffer handbook is a very valuable practical source, not to mention excellent reading on the history of the rig, well illustrated.
jimd

[Wild Wassa]

On first glance only,

Is the CB around the right way ? and secondly, that appears to be a pretty small CB for the new rig. If the top of the CB slot is at gunnel hight, to the foot of the CB is only 2 1/2 ft ?

I'll now go and read everything.

[ 03-19-2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Johannah]

Mike, I have a boating friend who has done a very similar modification with great success. His approx. 13' dagger board boat (Stevenson Designs Mini-Skipjack) sails very well with gaff rig rather than the lateen called for in the original design and is fast and stable. Just sent him an email with the details of your thread and questions here in hopes that he will pop in later with comments. Look for word from Tim.

[ 03-19-2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Johannah ]

[mdevour]

Thank you for your comments, Todd...


The entire sail plan looks a bit high off the water. Part of that impression may be the low freeboard and small OAL length of the boat. The sides are only about 14" high, and the seats are only a few inches below the sheer. The way it's drawn right now, the boom'll hit me right in the face. :D

There is room to adjust things as you suggest, though. I wouldn't mind reducing the tack angle and shortening the leach on the next set of sails to raise the clew end of the boom. That might improve things also?


It also looks like you could use more masthead height above the jaws. ... In addition, the entire mast seems a bit skinny. True on both counts. I ought not to have tapered the mast as much for a gaffer, and another foot or two of height would ease things.

Fortunately it can be changed if I can't get it to work any other way.


That is an awful lot of mainsail roach to try to support with only two battens. ... The bottom batten is at an odd angle and really should be 90 degrees to the leech ...
My sail maker probably did a better job of interpreting my sketch than I had any right to expect. tongue.gif The roach is more modest in the actual sail, the battens are angled as you suggest, and are a bit shorter, also.


That mid-boom block is going to bend the boom like crazy when you sheet-in hard... [etc.] Moving the block fore/aft from where it is will tend to trip up the crew, so perhaps a rework of the boom with extra stiffness in the middle will be another option.

I'll definitely watch for this when we start testing. Thanks for pointing it out.


... I'd still probably move the boom block up to within a foot or so of the gooseneck to keep from bending middle of the boom so much and pulling the draft out of the foot every time you sheet-in hard. Maybe explains why some folks like to leave the foot loose between the tack and clew! (Another thing that we can try when we get her wet. smile.gif )


There isn't enough information present to really say anything about what the rig does to the helm balance or the boat's stability under sail.True, but I thank you very much.

Mike

[John B]

Looks good to me.
My first impression was that the top panel looked a bit short too. If you already have the sails , why don't you just lower the boom a few inches. That will change the peak halyard angle to a better one and shift the lever arm of the c/e down a bit.
Your halyard purchases...I run the same on a 600ft main so I suggest they will be fine.I'd even wonder if you need the blocks at the throat and peak span myself.

[ 03-19-2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

Reducing the main tack angle would be possible, though it would likely also require a jack-line system from the tack up to about the third hoop shown on the drawing to keep the sail going up and down smoothly (it's that less than 90 degree tack angle thing rearing it's semi-ugly head again, but isn't a horrible problem).

In use, the boom doesn't really spend that much time interfering directly with the crew and it's tail will rise a bit, so it may not be a big deal. I remember when I first got my Starboat, the boom was so low that seated in the cockpit (on deck, feet in the hole) it was about waist level. We were sure we were going to blow a tack or jibe and get cut in half by it, but out on the water it wasn't all that bad.

Going loose-footed on a sail made to be laced-on usually doesn't work too well because the foot is cut differently and sets kind of funny. With a light boom that may flex a lot it can also cause a completely opposite sailshape problem. As the boom bends, it's heel and the gooseneck get closer together, essentially reducing outhaul tension, which may actually add draft to the sail when sheeted in tight, rather than flatten it which, within limits, is usually what you want.

I admit to being passionately anti-mid-boom sheeting on most small boats with light spars for those reasons. It tends to make it difficult to make sails that set well in varying conditions, since the cut can't change every time the boom's shape changes.

I do think that booms built with long, slotted wooden side chocks for stiffening or possibly a boom made with an upper stick glued to a lower stick with spacer blocks between them are ideas worth trying. The chocks or spacers could allow multiple options for attaching and adjusting the placement of mainsheet blocks on strops to allow experimentation with different block locations.

I also tend to think that people worry too much about boom clearance, especially when their kids will be on the boat. Most of the children that I've worked with are just about fearless and learn fast. They figure out how to avoid the boom and hanging mainsheets and sail away, never giving it another thought. Meanwhile, Dad is sitting there thinking "Gee, if I raise the gooseneck 3/4" and run the sheet over here - I can get another 2" of boom clearance...etc".

Anyway, it seems that you have your wits about you and are on the right track. Plus, you always know where to turn for six thousand totally different and possibly all reasonable viewpoints on what you should do next. With help like that, how can you fail?

[mdevour]

Jim wrote:
Twer it me, I'd go back to a simple lug rig before your weekend skiff takes six months. smile.gif I'd agree with you, Jim, except that I have the precious opportunity to be the one at home to work with the kids' on their homeschooling. That means I'm free to make the boat my sole vocation for pretty much as long as it takes.

Almost as good as being retired!

Leather's book convinced me to try cheeks and strops to hang stuff at the masthead, and contained such pearls of wisdom as making the purchase on the throat and peak halyards the same. tongue.gif Good stuff.

Wassa: According to the plans, yes, the centerboard is right way 'round. Which is funny, 'cause when I first drew that sketch last year I'd unconciously drawn it the way you're expecting. :confused:

The wetted length of the CB is about 24". I've already been advised to cast some lead into it, both to keep it in the hole and to act as a bit 'o keel ballast. Making a longer one is easy enough, up to the point it's too much stress for the hull structure. Would changing its shape be a legitimate aid in tweaking the fore and aft balance of the rig?

Johannah: Tim's project sounds encouraging. I look forward to hearing from him. Thanks!

Mike

[George Roberts]

M. G. Devour ---

I will applaud you and your daughter for your work. smile.gif It is nice to see that you got some book learning. I can tell you shared that process with your daughter.

(I don't know anything about these boats.)

Is the sail area the same as the original?

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

M.G.:

One thing true of human nature is that we always overbuild something that we are unfamiliar with. It dosn't matter if it is a house a sandbox or a boat. Left to your own devices you will construct it in a more than safe fashion and the girls will love it. If only they could appreciate all the mental sweat you are going to on their behalf...

Remember that their criterion is, "will it float?" Whereas your criterion is, "did I do it right and will it last for many years?" I am much like you in that regard with the Sanddollar (11 foot sailboat/skiff) that I am working on. Having started though at Thanksgiving I am getting to the point of, "let's get this done, man!" Likely the warmer weather is fueling those feelings that we both have as we enjoy the same midwest climate.

Best of luck to you on your project. I have it bookmarked to enjoy your progress. As Arch Davis said to me, "Just peck away at it on a regular basis and before long you will have a boat." smile.gif

[ 03-22-2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Captain Pre-Capsize ]

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Funny how just when you hit "send reply" another thought pops into your mind...

Don't ever discount what a blessing it is that you are heading this up for the girls - they will never forget it. As one year goes into the next I become more convinced than ever that the place to put your time and energy is into experiences. This runs against human nature (and us guys are the worst!) since we would rather just buy something material and be done with it. "There, I bought it and now you girls go sailing." Somehow not memorable.

I can assure you that so long as they live they will remenisce, "Hey, do you remember the time we built the sailboat with your dad and then went sailing?"

[mdevour]

Definite consensus here that my sails are a bit too far off the water in that sketch. I'll almost certainly move them down a few inches. Probably chin height or so... We'll see how it's setting up when I'm fitting it all together.


John B: Your halyard purchases...I run the same on a 600ft main so I suggest they will be fine. I'd even wonder if you need the blocks at the throat and peak span myself.That's good to know, John. Yes, the purchase is probably optional with this size rig. I can remove the blocks easily if they prove unnecessary.

Mike

[mdevour]

Todd Bradshaw wrote:
Reducing the main tack angle would be possible, though it would likely also require a jack-line system from the tack up to about the third hoop shown on the drawing to keep the sail going up and down smoothly (it's that less than 90 degree tack angle thing rearing it's semi-ugly head again, but isn't a horrible problem).
Yes, I remember a discussion of that on the Design forum.



I also tend to think that people worry too much about boom clearance... [Kids] figure out how to avoid the boom and hanging mainsheets and sail away, never giving it another thought. Meanwhile, Dad is sitting there thinking "Gee, if I raise the gooseneck 3/4" and run the sheet over here - I can get another 2" of boom clearance...etc".
Tee hee. You're right. It has been 20 years since I sailed a smaller boat. I hardly remember, but I suspect the boom was pretty low and involved a goodly crouch to pass under it. I'm sure the kids will get used to it. smile.gif

Thank you very much, Todd.

Mike

[mdevour]

George Roberts writes:
I will applaud you and your daughter for your work. smile.gif Thank you, George. It's a good project. A ways to go yet, but promising.


Is the sail area the same as the original?The plans show a single sail of about 40 sq. ft. on an un-stayed mast. It's desinged so you can safely turn inexperienced kids loose with it and not have them get into trouble. There are some photos in the book of a larger lugsail, but nothing with stays or a headsail.

So, I'm working out from scratch how to beef-up and fit out the hull to support the bigger rig, with no guarantees how well the hull shape will handle it.

Mike

[mdevour]

Captain Pre-Capsize writes:

One thing true of human nature is that we always overbuild something that we are unfamiliar with. ... Left to your own devices you will construct it in a more than safe fashion and the girls will love it. ... Remember that their criterion is, "will it float?" Whereas your criterion is, "did I do it right and will it last for many years?"
You're very perceptive, Cap'n! You have me figured to a tee. :D



I am much like you in that regard with the Sanddollar (11 foot sailboat/skiff) that I am working on. Having started though at Thanksgiving I am getting to the point of, "let's get this done, man!" Likely the warmer weather is fueling those feelings that we both have as we enjoy the same midwest climate.I have the chance to spend a week at a timeshare in North Carolina in May with the family of one of our girls that moved there last summer. There's a big lake nearby and all the amenities.

You bet I'm eager to get it done, and the warm weather is just making it worse!


Don't ever discount what a blessing it is that you are heading this up for the girls - they will never forget it. ... I can assure you that so long as they live they will remenisce, "Hey, do you remember the time we built the sailboat with your dad and then went sailing?" Wow. It's hard for me to put it in that sort of perspective, but what you say rings true. Indeed I hope it will be like that for them.


Best of luck to you on your project. Thank you. Lots.

Mike