Speed Sailing, 30 mph for 3 G

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi all
since Frank posted the sail rocket I have dug up some sketches I did for a home built speed sailboat (soft water).
Her looks hark to a old stern steering ice boat.
The business part of the rig is based on the Yellow Pages Endevour concept of small planeing hulls. Three flat wide hulls, two up front and a small skimmer at the stern, I have drawn various rigs for this craft but I like the simplicity of a large low lateen rig on Bipod mast.
I think a 16' one man version could be built for around 3,000$ and might sail at 20+ mph.
I will build a model some day when I have a spare munite and see how it performs.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[ben2go]

OK,you have my attention.

[ahp]

There was a book titled "The Thirty Knot Sailboat". The author only built a scale model which he sailed on a dry lake in the South West. In the spring these lakes do get some water in them. His design, he made several, was like an iceboat with hydrofoils.

[Daniel Noyes]

Could this be the fastest wooden sailboat ever!?
Monitor, designed by Baker and built by the U.S. Navy and Baker mfg co. sailed on stainless steel hydrofoils to over 30 knts. in the 1950's (swimmers and fish beware)! boat is in the Mariners Museaum at Newport News VA.
http://www.wind-water.nl/monitor_port_1.jpg
My idea would be quite a bit simpler and cheaper though not as elegant. Ill try and get a few sketches scanned and on line.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[ben2go]

Wouldn't it,in theory,be possible to achieve more than 30kts. by sail using hydrofoils?

[Dan McCosh]

The Hobie Trifoiler was a production hydrofoil that would do more than 30 knots.

[Captain Blight]

Here's my take (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88677).

[frank pedersen]

Hi Dan: You too have my attention, but I am slower to respond. Three thoughts: (1) I think I get the idea, but a drawing would be helpful. (2) You mention a lateen rig. In a book I really enjoy, Sail Performance (2nd ed.) by C. A. Marchaj, there is a chapter on wind tunnel comparisons of various rigs. The lateen comes out well, but the most amazing result was the power of what is called the crab claw. There is a certain similarity of the crab claw to the lateen rig, but the crab claw, at least in these comparisons, showed a remarkable superiority, Perhaps you have noticed pictures of top-level competition in the Sunfish. They usually have the tack of the sail almost on the deck, which causes the boom to angle upward. That makes the lateen rig a virtual crab claw. Interesting. (3) After seeing on You Tube pictures of Moths on foils, here is my proposal for affordable speed: (a) a Moth on foils with hiking racks, plus (b) a Spitfire wing shaped sail with full-length battens, plus (c) a canting mast that can be angled to windward (shrouds are tightened or loosened with a lever) to have a touch of the lift pattern of Sailrocket.

[Captain Blight]

Good ideas but foils are pretty spendy. And if you don't spend the money for someone else to make them, then it's a big investment in time to do it yourself. Dan, what's wrong with the D&DDD idea? Two flat-bottomed hulls could scream right along!

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi all
There are two important ideas behind the Yellow pages endeavours' three short, wide planeing hulls:
1 a short wide hull is very efficient at generating lift at planeing speeds. I saw photos of an old experiment, a planeing surface tow tested in a tank with holes drilled at regular intervals fore and aft along the plane and measuring tubes to test the water preasure along the lenght of the plane, just like a wing in the air or water the plane generated most of it's lift along the first third of it's surface. A windsurfer is mabey 10ft long but only 2 ft wide so its lifting surface is about 2 ft, to sail fast a windsurfer must shift weight aft untill more than half the board is out of the water, this reduces the drag of the trailing portion of the hull. With a wider shorter hull you get alot more lifting surface and alot less drag from the rest of the hull.
2. the third hull regulates the angle of attack of the other two hulls, short wide hulls tend to squat when power is applied. By seperating the hulls fore and aft and joining them rigidly the hulls can be kept at their optimal planing angle.
Here is the sketch I pictured the boat with a varnished main beam and white hullsm mabey even a canvas nonskid deck on the hulls, like the machine just came out of Hereshoffs or a Burgess work shop at Marblehead. The large dagger board is for up wind work, likely at slow displacement speeds. I designed this boat to be carried on a fullsize pick up with a roof rack. Neat thing is with the sail and masts lowered and secured this boat or a bigger version could be left on a mooring.

another boat built to this idea 1999 from http://www.speedsailing.com/Boats_Main.htm
Sea Spider:
Single handed planing craft
Beam 5.9m
Length 6.9m
2 Sails 10m sq each
Weight 135 Kg
http://www.speedsailing.com/sea_spider2.jpg

here's another http://www.speedsailing.com/Hurtadu2001_1.jpg Jean Hurtado's machine shows a short burst of speed. The design is based on the ideas of the English inventor and designer Percy Pilcher who lived from 1866 to 1899. In 1895 Pilcher was the first person in Great Britain to pilot a heavier than air aircraft.


my design
http://dansdories.googlepages.com (http://dansdories.googlepages.com/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3115/3098800715_f613f84010.jpg?v=0

[Captain Blight]

HOLY CATS! You'll shoot yer eye out, kid! But it looks simply grand, I like the idea of the varnished springplank and the cream-canvas decks.

I see now why you were thinking Sunfish-type lateen. You'd really want this thing to sail on her feet.... you could always power it with a great big kite!

[Daniel Noyes]

yeah a kite, if it could be reliably controlled, would be ideal.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Daniel Noyes]

Thanks Blight!
thats just what I was going for, I got to see Amarillis II at the Bristol RI a few yrs ago and was very impressed.
I think you are right on about the efficency of the wide floats, highly efficient in planeing mode and very poor in displacement mode. Im pretty certain that the drag on the boat will actually decrease significantly as the floats begin to plane, as opposed to most sailboats where drag increases steadily with speed. I would expect performance up wind to be about as good as a PDR or opti pram, the deep dager board is specifically for efficient slow speed lateral resistance, I tucked the rear float in at the stern to give a little better flow by the rudder. The boat caries the large low sail to power it past the displacement/forced speed onto a plane, the hull speed of the floats is likely 2mph tops so they should begin planeing relatively quickly as the boat is steered off the wind, once the boat was up it would break free and accelerate rapidly. The only way to test the idea is a decent sive scale model, 1/4 scale would work well, the scale weight including a simulated skipper is important as weight will be a big factor in determining if this design is feasable.
Dan
PS Ill post some of this to the thread.


Some thoughts on your design: First, WOW, that looks like it came right of Cap'n Nat's drafting table. Line, proportion, scale, all of it looks like it's just an evolution of Amaryllis, what she would have become had things drifted that way. Maybe a little bit of iceboat in there too.

Second, I've unfortunately got to question your use of square floats: although it's true that a long narrow surface is much less efficient in planing mode than a short wide one, I think you may have gone a little to far the other way. It would seem that off-plane, your craft would be draggy and hard to steer. Maybe that's just me.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3115/3098800715_f613f84010.jpg?v=0

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Read "Icarus - the boat that flies" by James Grogono.

"If I have seen further..."

[Daniel Noyes]

looks interesting, Ill see if the library can get it.

[Daniel Noyes]

Here's my latest thinking on the subject... actually I'm thinking mabey a 21 footer but here's one on a 16' backbone, 180+- sq ft sail 150-180 lbs.+ crew
Dan
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2783/4188171287_21546e36b9_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/4188171287/)

[Daniel Noyes]

I have begun building a model based on my latest thinking on this design, the boat will be a hydro plane instead of a trimaran.

model is 2 inches to the foot based on a 21' craft.
Ill post photos when I get some

[wtarzia]

Could this be the fastest wooden sailboat ever!?
Monitor, designed by Baker and built by the U.S. Navy and Baker mfg co. sailed on stainless steel hydrofoils to over 30 knts. in the 1950's (swimmers and fish beware)! boat is in the Mariners Museaum at Newport News VA....

--- I just saw that boat a couple of weeks ago passing through back from the EC. Quite the boat. I took a couple of photos but I cannot post them because one is allowed only to take photos there for personal use. (I also enjoyed seeing April Fool set up nearby. The two boats that haunted my imagination since I was a kid were the proa I saw at the Peabody Museum and April Fool, I saw in some magazine -- interestingly, the epitomes of handsome/fast and ugly/slow!) -- Wade

[Ben Fuller]

The book is called the 40 Knot Sailboat by Bernard Smith. Challenge to all this is weight. This has to be wicked light. Moth's are... as I recall there is no minimum weight. International Canoes are down to 50 kg hull weight which can be achieved in tortured plywood with some kevlar inside it. To do this cheap will not be easy, as the rig has to be quite sophisticated. Start looking blown up iceboat rig? DN's would not be big enough. Kite power could be the way to go.

[Barry]

Not Wood, But reached 50 knots, before pitch poling!!

http://www.google.ca/search?q=l%27hydroptere&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=MCg&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=s&biw=1366&bih=536&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=vid&tbo=u&ei=NsKxTczWM474swOP053mCw&ved=0CCYQqwQ

[Daniel Noyes]

got the model out for a first sail this afternoon.

conditions were ideal, 5-10 mph breeze.

The model performed reasonably well, the addition of a center board of some sort is essential but even with difficulty getting the boat to free sail in the direction I wanted it did show promissing bursts of speed and good stability, very encouraging and certainly worth further experimentation.

the 42' long model seemed to sail around one mph or so in displacement speed and when it did get up on plane it sailed along at around 4-5 mph, lots of fun.

video
http://www.youtube.com/user/danoyes1#p/u/7/i7zgXJNJXwM

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/227728_560400261905_68401940_32056187_6632447_n.jp g

[Daniel Noyes]

Wade you asked about the wake of the main hull on the outrigger thread, Ill answer here as it will not clutter the outrigger thread with too many topics.

the wake at the rear of the forward hull had three modes, in slow displacement there was simply a large area of disturbed water, in semi planeing the water was still piled up at the bow of the hull but it seperated and formed a rooster tail about at the bow of the rear hull, when the boat was up and planeing cleanly there was seperation of the water flow at the transom an the main hull its self was drawing almost no water with only the aft inchor less of the hull in the water.

[wtarzia]

Wade you asked about the wake of the main hull on the outrigger thread, Ill answer here as it will not clutter the outrigger thread with too many topics.....

--- Interesting, thanks. Would be interesting to play with the trailing edge (or transom edge of the wing) forms to see how shape differences would reduce wakes and tails. What fun to have one's lap in the backyard or close! I wonder what easily available publications with illustrations tomake are out there that make clear what the shapes of wakes/water exiting mean for the bodies in the water? i.e., something for the hull like what Marchaj wrote for the sail. -- Wade

[Daniel Noyes]

I have been considering your suggesion for dihedrial incorporated into the forward wing/hull but a felow forumite on PM has been encourageing me back in the direction of the trimaran, narrower hulls that can get more boat clear of the water at high speed.

I plan on building a new forward hull incorporating both principles quite similar to a power hydroplanes sponsons, sponsons that have the bottoms angled outwards, the thought is that the craft may plane on the wide flat wing in lighter winds and when the breeze really pipes up say over 20 mph the craft will be allowed to heel ever so slightly and may ride on the leeward sponton and the aft hull flying along much like an ice boat lifts a runner at terriffic speeds! :)


If I were ever to construct a boat based on this design I would bring it straight to Carl's Wood Regatta for it's maiden voyage.

[wtarzia]

I have been considering your suggesion for dihedrial incorporated into the forward wing/hull but a felow forumite on PM has been encourageing me back in the direction of the trimaran, narrower hulls that can get more boat clear of the water at high speed....

--- Yeah, I suppose you cannot beat what a trimaran foiler can do. Still, they are almost getting ordinary now, and 40 knots is a slow day, etc., so your wing design sparked my imagination :-) I also had the thought that your wing-boat would not be snapping off so many hydrofoils on sandbars! Saw this guy lanuch a small commericial foiler a couple of years ago at New Haven -- left very quickly, and came back very soon, facing expensive welding repairs on some T-foils that met the shallows. Finally, I was thinking that you might get the boat into "ground effect" on a good day :-) -- Wade

[Daniel Noyes]

no not a hydro foil, I agree with you whole heartedly hydro foils are impressive but finnicky things. They are also hard for home builders to get right, and impossible or close to it on a 3,000$ budget.

When I say hydroplane I am not talking about hydrofoils, When I say hydroplane I mean a hull configuration with a wide planeing surface forward who's angle is regulated by the stern portion of the hull, hydroplanes are popular racing boat hulls for everything from RC model boats up to jet engined machines like Miss Budweiser. I have been looking at the posability of this hull for sailing.

hope to do some more testing tomorrow evening

[Daniel Noyes]

I sailed today with a hull configuration very similar to some of my initial sketches, model scale is 2" = 1' the model configuration represented a 21' backbone with three planeing hulls the forward ones 8' long x 4' wide the aft hull 8' long x 1' wide, set similar to the sketch below. rig was a sloop with significantly raked mast.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2783/4188171287_21546e36b9_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/4188171287/)

Performance was very exciting, mind blowing really, in 10-12+ mph breeze the model easily transitioned to planeing mode and skittered across the 3-400 ft wide pond in a matter of seconds, skidding up the grassy bank on the far side before coming to a stop. speed was around 12-15 mph

the boat was flying along with the windward hull lifting clear of the water for moments and the leeward hull and aft hull throwing all kinds of spray from their foils.
the speed was far greater than a conventional multi hull model eg. catamaran could have acchieved under similar conditions, the boat looked like it had a motor on it...
didn't have the camera along, but I got several excelent runs in about an hrs. time and am certain the performance will only get better with minor tweaking.

It's not very often that I get to experiment with a new hull type for a sail boat, every day I sail the model I am trying a boat that no one has seen anything like before!
very interesting stuff.

[Daniel Noyes]

had a great sailing session with another hull design, 12'x 6' hull, very smooth exceleration on to plane in relatively light wind,
videos to be posted

[wtarzia]

Model or crewed? I guess a model? -- wade

[Daniel Noyes]

Model...for now

here's a decent run,
http://www.youtube.com/user/danoyes1#p/u/1/zwnZ77_Xefg

and you can see how the boat pushes on to plane here, the windward section of the hull lifts free of the water then the forward hull jumps onto plane.
http://www.youtube.com/user/danoyes1#p/u/3/y-CD_0bum3E

I have weighed the model rigged for sail on a jewlers scale and the scale weight is around 550 lbs for the scale 21' model, wich certainly sounds do-able.