Help on Varnish

[Clinton B Chase]

The varnish on my little Nutshell looks goood except it has specks in it when you look close. I think they may be dust particles from the wood (i did wipe it before varnish), the air (I though I let the dust settle), or the brush. Any ideas what the sources for this apparent dust may be and how to prevent it from getting into my varnish again? Incidentally, I am designing a new workshop. How do people keep their shops clean, dust free, and ventilated for a flawless finish on the varnish?

TX
Cheers,
Clint

[Leon m]

Originally posted by Clinton B Chase:
How do people keep their shops clean, dust free, and ventilated for a flawless finish on the varnish?

TX
Cheers,
ClintIf you can't have a room dedicated to varnishing you will need a dust collection system.
You can hook this up to your tools, and they make a unit you attach to your ceiling that will pull the dust out of the air.If you want to go really cheap,stick a strong fan in your window while you are sanding.Then make sure all the flies are dead (sticky fly tape),you'd be amazed at how much dust one fly can kick up.Then right before you varnish go over the entire boat with "Tack Cloth".

[ 03-15-2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

[JimConlin]

I've been known to varnish in the living room.
http://www.conlin-boats.com/im000162-2.jpg

[pcford]

Unless it is grunge from a poorly cleaned brush, it most likely is, as another poster said, dust. In thirty years in the boat restoration business, (mostly speedboats) I'd have to say that clients are most likely to get upset not from fits, not from finish prep, not from finish but from dust in varnish. Probably the element that you have the least control over. (!!!)

Unless you have a dedicated space which is used for varnish only, you _will_ have dust in varnish.
You could:
1. Be satisfied with finish. Dust motes seem to "rub out" with normal use.
2. Put another coat on. Pray for warm, calm, settled weather.
3. Rub out the finish with abrasives. Just like polishing a car. That's what most people do with speedboats 'round here. Gives a smooth, dustfree surface. Feels kinda sexy.

[paul oman]

would a home (residential) air filter machine (like sold in Walmart) help?

paul oman

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by paul oman:
would a home (residential) air filter machine (like sold in Walmart) help?

paul omanI have a hanging dust filter unit in my shop that pulls the shop air through a filter and spits it back into the shop, which is pretty much what a home filter would do. My guess is a home filter would clog up pretty quickly. The hanging filter does a decent job of clearing the air in a reasonable amount of time after I've been doing something dusty but it does NOT prevent a dust from settling on most surfaces around the shop. So, I'm not sure how much it would help in this situation.

What you could try for the last coat of varnish (the only one that matters) is get everything ready for applying the varnish the day before. Just before you do this prep work do what you can to clean up any dust on the floor and work surfaces in the area where you will be varnishing. Then close up the shop and let any dust in the air settle out overnight. Do a final wipedown of the surface to be varnished the next day and then put on the varnish and get out of the shop again until the varnish dries.

Also, some people like to have a pot of varnish and a seperate pot on which to wipe off the brush.

[Ed Harrow]

Is this the first coat?

Take a gander at Bob Cleek's piece. Wish I could remember his wonderful phrasing re how close ya gonna be to this thing - works of art are meant to be examined from a distance, etc.

1. Good, dedicated-to-varnish brush
2. Vacuum surface (and everything else, LOL)
3. Wipe surface with paint thinner
3a. Oops, dampen floor ;)
4. Pour varnish thru filter into a CLEAN container. If paranoid, scoop varnish from can (results in fewer (maybe) bubbles). If using Penetrol, or other secret elixir, they can be added thru the filter at the same time.
5. Replace cap on varnish can (whole seperate topic, LOL)
6. Remove clothes.
7. When surface is dry (and it should be by now), wipe with tack rag (read directions on tack rag package.)
8. Apply varnish.
9. DO NOT RETURN EXCESS VARNISH TO CAN!

Get yourself a copy of Rebecca's book Brightwork.

The use of a shop-quality air filter may be advantagous. If you have access to a flow bench, give that a shot. ;)

[ 03-16-2005, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Ed Harrow ]

[dmede]

I saw a shop tip in fine wood working I think where the writer said he used an old style square floor fan, taped a decent filter element from a home air system over the back of it and hung it from his rafters in the garage. Its positioned so the intake side of the fan is facing down and exhausts the air through the filter upwards. Nice poor mans air filtration.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by dmede:
I saw a shop tip in fine wood working I think where the writer said he used an old style square floor fan, taped a decent filter element from a home air system over the back of it and hung it from his rafters in the garage. Its positioned so the intake side of the fan is facing down and exhausts the air through the filter upwards. Nice poor mans air filtration.Just realize that in doing this you may be filtering out the dust that is causing problems in the varnish and the dust that is immediately annoying around the shop, but you are most definitely NOT filtering out the very small dust particles that are most dangerous to your health. I worry about this sort of situation because it can create a sense of false security.

[dmede]

I suppose that would depend on the filter media used and not the method described. However, my understanding is that its intended to be used after a work session to keep the dust around the shop down. You should probably wear a respirator for ultra fine particles while working.

[Bruce Hooke]

I agree that it could be a useful techinque for clearing the air for varnishing (preferable the day before because of course the air currents from the fan will also stir up dust). Sadly, I don't think it is that easy to get filters of the kind that you could attach to a fan that also filter down to the level necessary for health (0.3 microns IIRC). So, basically, nothing wrong with the technique as long as you realize it's limitations.

I built my hanging filter system for about $160, which is about what they cost pre-made for the basic model but it allowed me to choose a really good filter that I could get stock from Graingers. I also installed a two-speed fan and timer switch, which gives me more control. But, it is certainly a more expensive route than a box fan and a furnace filter.

[Torna]

In addition to clean air as others have mentioned, also pay attention to your clothes. Your arm, flexing at the elbow as you brush, can cause your shirt the release dust/lint if there's any present.
Of course you change out of your sanding clothes and take a shower before getting into varnish mode. A nylon windbreaker/raincoat releases much less lint than any cotton shirt. You might also get a Tyvek or clean room suit to wear while finishing if you wanna be picky.

-leif

[Ed Harrow]

Originally posted by Torna:
...pay attention to your clothes. Your arm, flexing at the elbow as you brush, can cause your shirt the release dust/lint if there's any present.

... A nylon windbreaker/raincoat releases much less lint than any cotton shirt. You might also get a Tyvek or clean room suit ...

-leif
Originally posted by Ed Harrow:
...
6. Remove clothes.

[dmede]

Ed, you forgot to mention putting new cloathes on. Or do you varnish in the buff? ;)

[pcford]

Ok, all of the advice given above has value. Though, varnishing sans clothing is not necessarily a good visual.

Thus far nobody has mentioned putting water on the floor. Some boat builders had specialised room with zinc floor covering used for this purpose.

However, if one is focused on getting every dust mote possible, you are bound to be disappointed. It is much, much more effective to simply buff out the surface. Gloss is the same, but no (repeat: no) dust.

[Wild Wassa]

We have dust storms in our varnish over here, some seasons. Out comes the hose, from the ceiling to the floor gets hosed off ... I'd like a sealed booth to save water.

Warren.

[ 03-16-2005, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[JimConlin]

In the buff. And take a shower! :D

[B. Darrah Thomas]

Ed said it all. #4 on his list is a biggie. Can't say as I've varnished in the buff yet although...

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by Ed Harrow:
" ...works of art are meant to be examined from a distance ...".

If that's your best option.

Personally, I like to get up really close and look deeply into the varnish, ... otherwise just buy the book.

Warren.

[ 03-19-2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Ralphw]

I was going to ask if anyone ever used a buffer with polishing compound?

[pcford]

I was going to ask if anyone ever used a buffer with polishing compound? Yes. To make a long story short, it's pretty much like polishing a car. Microfine paper to 1500-2000, then polishing compounds.

I'm fairly sure I posted on this in the past.

[Adamant]

Making a tent of new plastic sheeting around the boat, then weting the floor will stop drafts and act like a clean room. We use this with gowns and booties when working on hi tec components where I work.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

If you have a big boat, you put up with a little dust in the varnish. :D

[JimConlin]

I buy varnish only in pints and use a new can for last coats.

[BRobinson]

Polishing works, but it is very time consuming (I had 19 hrs in one deck) and if you cut any corners you will get swirl marks.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid189/p3018e64a509be4b429ca1dfdc695b1b4/f203697c.jpg

[ 10-05-2005, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: BRobinson ]

[Ralphw]

thanks guys... I was looking on google and really couldn't find much

[Jay Greer]

Another source of nerds in the varnish is the brush itself. If you use a dedicated brush that is cleaned and stored till time for the next use, you need to make sure the brush is thoroughly clean. Other wise a film of varnish will solidify on each bristle and when the brush gets used again the varnish will split off as the brush flexes, ruining the job.

I store my brushes wapped in porous paper such as is used for photo albums. This will suck up residue if any is left. I then stand them on end under thinner in a large plastic container. This helps keep the chisle edge of the brush intact. My Linzer varnish brushes turned 45 this year. They still are darned good tools.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
If you have a big boat, you put up with a little dust in the varnish. :D I'll add it's a boat, not a piano. :eek: :cool: :D

[ 10-06-2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: kc8pql ]

[BRobinson]

Says who :D

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid190/p46b38e5258f3bee491ab2a91a4d9c267/f1fecdd5.jpg

[ 10-06-2005, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: BRobinson ]

[J. Blazy]

As a professional finisher, I learned real quick that you can only minimize dust, not eliminate it, therefore don't spend all your time and energy creating a clean environment, rather you need to spend time and energy learning to wetsand and buff efficiently.

I spray at night after dinner, when the dust has settled, after previously setting up the spray booth so as to not stir up dust too much. Ditto on removing your shirt - most sanding dust absorbs right into the finish, and you never know it, but lint from clothes is what is 90% of all dust nerds (I know - I've analyzed them).

After good cure, I use a razor to lance off the high spots of any dust nerd, then only wet sand the area, not the whole surface - using plenty of rinse water and cleaning the wet sand paper (1200 grit) to expose only grit, not clogs.

Then buff with compound followed by final glaze (swirl mark remover).

This method is quite fast to produce museum quality finishes, without a 100 grand downdraft booth, tyvek suits wet floor etc.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p34b2e5d693f7d49d1d7bb051dae7a086/fb20e32b.jpg

[BRobinson]

I spray at night after dinner, when the dust has settled, after previously setting up the spray booth so as to not stir up dust too much. I always have worried that if the final coat is sprayed it would have to be thinned, which in turn would leave you with a thinner mil thickness on the last coat, making it less effective than a full strength brushed coat.

Thoughts?

[George Roberts]

I have a dirty dusty shop. I never clean it well enough.

I wipe on the final coat.

[Victor]

Only God is perfect, the rest of us do the best we can.

[Clinton B Chase]

I forgot about this post I made a while back but is relevant as I plan this winter's Nutshell project. Thanks for thoughts. I like the varnishing naked idea. So will my wife.

Cheers,
Clint Chase
Portland, Maine

[J. Blazy]

Originally posted by BRobinson:
I always have worried that if the final coat is sprayed it would have to be thinned, which in turn would leave you with a thinner mil thickness on the last coat, making it less effective than a full strength brushed coat.

Thoughts?Thats why I hot spray through the warmed up turbine of the HVLP. The turbine will make the air and the whole spray gun almost too hot to hold, and with the varnish in the cup also previously warmed up with a heatgun, the viscosity is almost cut in half - resulting in fine atomization, allowing super controlled wetout passes, and almost no orange peel. No need to thin, and if I do, I add such a small amount of thinner, that it does not significantly change mil thickness.
The sweet part about spraying, is the control over mil thickness (I layed 10+ mils on the deck where it won't drip, and layed less on the verticals to prevent runs n sags), and the consistency of desired mil thickness.

Hilarious point about your wife Clinton :D

[Tom M.]

My Linzer varnish brushes turned 45 this year. You've got to be kidding me! 45 years and you haven't lost them? They weren't stolen? Didn't lose them in the drink? That's got to be a record of some kind.

[Jay Greer]

My wife gets pissed off cause I sleep with my brushes.

[stephen e morris]

I too have tried to beat the dust bug.So far the easiest method has been to put a box fan blowing out of the shop and partially open the door at the opposite end of the shop,creating a cross flow of freshclean outside air.The theory being that sideways traveling air will waft the dust motes away before they land in the sticky.It seems to work pretty well...not perfect.Behlen finishing compound works too,if you want to rub it out ;you can do it by hand too.

[neptoon]

brush or spray your prodject upside down if possible....dust won't settle up ....or put some japan drier in your varnish..then sand with 1500 grit micro paper....auto paint supplier has it and then buff with finnesse it compound

[Jack Hughes]

Don't forget to wet down your wife!