PDA

View Full Version : Primary electric propulsion



John Blazy
10-26-2004, 12:23 AM
It just dawned on me to share what I think is a valuable development in propulsion systems for small boats.

Obviously, many want the romance of sail power, or many like to plane, but for those considering clean (green), silent, initial low-cost, and extremely low fuel cost propulsion, I seemed to stumble upon a fairly radical bridge between the low end of trolling motors and the high-cost of permanent magnet, primary power electric drive systems - using aftermarket parts on high-power trolling motors.

Based on a couple years of research, I've discovered that there is a great chasm in the electric primary power propulsion world - the chasm between super cheap trolling motors (less than 500-600 bucks) and the permanent magnet motors (2 grand and wayy way up to 6 grand).

The great thing about trolling motors - thanks to all the bass fishermen out there - is that they are cheap, easy to get, and very reliable.

The problem with the trolling motor is that the props are all low pitch (4")- designed to push a heavy boat with quick response, kindof like driving in first gear only. So for primary drive, or auxiliary power, many simply shoot for the Briggs E-tek or its equivalants and pay through the nose for fittings (+labor), or complete systems like Ray electric outboards, and consequently , many electric drive dreams are dashed and never get on the water. The E-boat forum is full of posts on both extremes - cheap drives for very small boats, or very complicated drives for pretty much anything larger.

This has been solved, thanks to a couple guys on the e-boat forum, and kort nozzle fabrication (a thrust enhancing, flow maximizing, power-reducing "hoop" that fits around a prop). One guy suggested using the stainless steel E-drive prop (6-3/4" pitch) from the Minn Kota E-drive motor (a new, MK motor for constant use on pontoon boats, but close to three grand) and fitting it onto the lower cost, 36 V, 101 lb thrust MK Riptide.

He ran two 101's in tandem, which didn't torque each motor that much, which is why he got away with it without burning out the motors (I tried the E-drive prop on one motor only, and the prop way over-torqued the motor, resulting in a shrill schreeching sound - but considerably faster :D ).

I decided to put the stainless E-drive prop on my 24V 65 lb MK Maxxum, and used a kort nozzle to decrease the torque on the motor (no schreeching :cool: ). I now easily get the equivalent of over 100 lbs of thrust with the new prop, and hit hull speed at less than full power for a 14 foot boat.

Extrapolating from this experience, less than a grand (101 lb thrust motor with E-drive prop + nozzle) will easily power a 20 - 25 footer with the same performance that three to six grand got you before with the higher power perm. magnet motors. And a lot less hassle - way easier through-hull fittings if you choose, or you can simply transom mount.

So in conclusion, this info might be valuable to those considering building a small to medium displacement hull boat and don't want to foot the cost of rigging for sail, or simply want the quiet whisper drive. Or want auxiliary power for their sailboat.

In my electric drive boat, I can go close to hull speed (6-8 knots) for about 1-1/2 hours constant throttle on each battery bank (two banks of two 105 Amp/hr deep cycle marine batts) to the point of 50% depth of discharge. Or three hrs round trip, covering ten to twelve miles total (yes, I check the maps with a compass after each trip). In reality, without constant throttle, most of my summer boating trips have been 5-7 hrs on the water, and only a few times did I dip into my second battery bank (one bank on Port side, and one on Starboard).

The catch to all this, is that one must fabricate a kort nozzle. Do a search on kort nozzles, and you'll find lots of info, or I'll explain further. I may make a mold from mine and cast a few someday.

I'm a little biased, of course, but open to issues
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid144/p8b235bfb5da08e165457d85b3e538087/f6807950.jpg

Stiletto
10-26-2004, 01:32 AM
When you add in a couple of deep cycle batteries and a charging setup, how does the economics look?

edited for typo.

[ 10-26-2004, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Stiletto ]

MarkC
10-26-2004, 07:34 AM
John - you approach Kota with your Kort-Koncept yet? Might get you a few dollars - a proper factory tank/power test at least. With the Kort moulded to the casing by some funky struts, much drag would be diminished (eg. from the pipe clamp).

Great post though.

John Blazy
10-26-2004, 09:00 AM
MK 65 Maxxum 24 Volt is 400 bucks, the E-drive prop is 100 bucks, the batts are 49.00 each at Sam's club, and the chargers are 30 bucks each. $760.00 and you've got power. Then you have to make a brass or bronze bushing to mount the prop - 3/8" ID to 5/8 OD, and make the kort nozzle.

Large DIA PVC pipe might work (10" DIA X 4 or 5"), if you kerfed the trailing edge deep enough to then hose clamp it to a slight cone, then glued another section over the main to beef up the leading edge for shaping. Epoxy will stick to PVC, so one could fit the details and fill accordingly.

Interesting idea Mark, but having thought it out earlier, coupled with my experience in business, I'd be wasting my time with MK. Kort nozzles have been around for many years with proven performance (see any towboat, or submarine, or even those scuba diver thrusters)), and even improved upon (Rice Speed Nozzles), so if MK wanted to, they would have introduced them by now. MK wants to sell a larger motor (like the E-drive) if one wants more speed and efficiency, not tweak out their lower cost motors with a line of nozzles.

I can see the nozzles being a real headache for MK based on their target market. For one thing, which I should have mentioned earlier, is that they clog with weeds rather easy. However, I plan to add stainless strips (.030" x 1/2 x 9 - 11")that connect from the kort's leading edge to the motor body before I go next summer back to Sandusky bay area (NW Ohio) - thick with weeds.

I (so does MK) see a huge potential market though for electric drive due to high fuel costs, more electric-only lakes, and "Green" reasons. I'm not an environmentalist - just like to be efficient, and my current boat is waayyy higher performing than I had anticipated.

A narrow, 22 - 30 foot launch would really cook with a 101 lb thrust motor with the prop and nozzle conversion.

Figment
10-26-2004, 09:05 AM
Rock on! :cool:

AngWood
10-26-2004, 12:11 PM
Really cool. I have a lot of decisions to make as I continue working (slowly now) on the hull of my Calypsee-inspired skiff.

Go here: http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/etekoutboard.html
for a somewhat remarkable electric-power project. This fellow married an electric motor to an old outboard lower unit. Not sure what his costs were, but look at the performance:

http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/etektest27.jpg

AngWood
10-26-2004, 12:19 PM
Here's another shot from the same guy. Coulnd't resist. He tried it on his Diablo before tweaking it for the Sneakeasy.

http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/etektest10.jpg

imported_Dutch
10-26-2004, 10:08 PM
start your own company of aftermarket conversions

Klaus
10-27-2004, 09:39 AM
Any chance of the URL for that e-boat forum you mentioned?
klaus

Figment
10-27-2004, 09:54 AM
What's up with the floating winnebago park in the background of the sneakeasy pic?

John Blazy
10-27-2004, 11:54 AM
Thanks Angwood - I've seen the sneakeasy site before, but is well worth the new look. It is a classic example of what I was trying to say when I mention that any electric drive above trolling motors are very high cost, and/or very high fabrication complexity. This is precisely why I propose the hopped up TM above.

The forum mentioned above is click on forum when there (http://www.eboat.org)

Puzzling pic for sure.

landlocked sailor
10-28-2004, 05:42 PM
Thanks John, this is a really interesting discussion. I have a 24v 74lb. MinnKota on my Bolger LILY electric launch. It has the standard weedless wedge which pushes her about 4 kts. at best. Do you think a kort nozzle with the E-drive prop would improve this enough to bother? Did you fabricate your own kort nozzle? Rick
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pc97cbb52914bd1bab6a14d401345f853/f77abfcc.jpg

John Blazy
10-28-2004, 08:37 PM
WWWAAAYYYY Cooll Rick !!!! I'm glad you finished up the Lily. Looks good. I too have a couple golf umbrellas on Calypsee - see below.

In all honesty, the E-drive prop and nozzle combo is worth the extra speed at top end, and is quite likely to be more amp draw efficient at lower speeds. Thats the beauty of it - I run on the "75" setting, and its clearly faster than the 100 setting if I had the old prop. I assume you have the Maxxum - nice with the PWM (Maximizer). Remember - the weedless wedge prop was designed to push heavy, large boats with high responsiveness, not high speeds - like being in first gear. The E-drive prop is like jumping to third gear with overdrive. The reason you and I can do this is because our boats are small, and displacement hulls (i.e. higher forward speed, more water "ramming" into the prop).

If you are boating in mostly weedy waters, then you may want to reconsider, but I think its worth it. Looking at your boat, I realize that if you ever got weeds or got a branch wedged between your prop and nozzle, you might have a hard time clearing it out, unless you can reach it from inside the boat. I reach behind my boat without a problem to clear occasional debris.

I made my Kort nozzle by forming (cold) two 1/8" Lexan polycarbonate rings (one conical, and one almost straight) and welding the seams, then welding together, and milling a leading edge hydrofoil. Real pain in the ### - full week of work. Next time I would make one the way I prescibe above, or lathe turn in wood, then cover in epoxy/glass. I will likely end up making one for my new boat, and may just make a mold and cast future ones, and perhaps take orders if others want them.

You would also need to make a reducing bushing to fit the E-drive prop. Its the MK stainless steel E-drive prop (6-3/4" pitch x 9-1/2"DIA) that goes on the expensive E-drive motor - bought online at iboats.com for 98 bucks, and I simply made a bushing from a brass cabinet door knob by drilling a 3/8" DIA hole through it, then while it was stuck to the drill bit, I rough turned it by holding it over my tablesaw blade while it and the drill was spinning - sounds dangerous, but not really. Roughed to 9/16" DIA, I then mounted it onto my MK Maxxum motor shaft (friction fit) and turned on the motor full speed. While spinning, I held a file onto the spinning brass plug and carefully milled it down til the new prop fit perfectly (to about 5/8" OD).

The only thing left is to drill a new shear pin hole through the motor shaft to larger DIA for the pin that comes with the new prop - not hard I did it twice (two motors). If the hole is off and the pin is cocked a little, just file new flats on it til the prop seats well.

Hope this helps. - JB
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/pabafcf73e44ee95ed47bc1b820d66e93/f700a261.jpg

AngWood
10-29-2004, 11:59 AM
Is the e-drive prop weedless (without the Kort nozzle)? Oh, but it screeches without a Kort nozzle. I think I'll have to go with a conventional weedless prop--dem bayous is real weedy.

landlocked sailor
10-29-2004, 04:52 PM
Thanks John, so....when will you start taking orders? ;) Rick

John Blazy
10-29-2004, 06:34 PM
I'll start working on a nozzle mold master and some pipe tests. Will let you know in a month or so. I'll have to check the cost per unit and hope its affordable. Takideazy - JB

landlocked sailor
10-29-2004, 07:07 PM
Sounds good. Rick

tidmarsh
11-01-2004, 12:01 PM
Does anyone have any experience with Kipawa propellers (http://www.kipawapropellers.com/index.html)? From their website, it appears that they make higher pitch propellers for higher speed from electric trolling motors. I've emailed asking the pitch of their propellers, but haven't heard back yet.

http://www.kipawapropellers.com/image/3123746.jpg

FYI--Here's a link to the patent:
Patent (http://tinyurl.com/5arjd)

Click "Images" to see the drawings.

[edited to add link to patent.]

[ 11-01-2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: tidmarsh ]

John Blazy
11-01-2004, 01:09 PM
Thanks a ton for this lead - JB

tidmarsh
11-01-2004, 02:04 PM
Just got an email back from Kipawa--the pitch on their propellers is "45 degrees." Don't know what that translates into in inches.