Genes, Memes and Consciousness

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  • Nanoose
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 10598

    Genes, Memes and Consciousness

    If the universe is composed of only brute, inert matter, I don't get how we move from that to consciousness.

    Brute matter rearranges according to combinatorial processes. We get newer and larger combinations, but all we still have is that brute matter. How do we get consciousness (intentionality, volition, etc.) and secondary qualities (colors, smells, tastes, sounds, textures) from matter that doesn't have it simpy by rearranging the matter? At the subatomic level there is no color, odor, taste, smell, so how do we get those things by simply rearranging the parts?

    And consciousness... how does brute matter explain issues that can only be known from the first person? My knowledge of my experience is private - my brain state isn't. My brain state can be seen on a machine, but the corresponding response in my mind can only be revealed if I choose to reveal it. There are things that are true of mental states that aren't true of matter (i.e. the brain), so they cannot be the same thing. (For instance, thoughts can be True/False, but a brain state can't. Thoughts have no size, shape, mass; aren't located closer to my left or right ear, but brain states have those things. The mental state for pain is different that the brain firing for pain.) Consciousness is private; brain state isn't. Mental states have intentionality; brain states don't. So, it seems pretty clear that brain states are not mental states. How do we move from the former to the latter?

    Memes are ideas/behaviours passed via learning/imitation (e.g. thoughts, ideas, theories, gestures, practices, habits, fashions, songs, dances; Wikipedia).

    So naturalists agree these conscious states exist and posit memes are the reason. Yet, they say a meme is an idea, thought, practice. How do I get an idea or intentionality from brute matter? An idea isn't a brain state; I have to choose to reveal it. Meme theory doesn't account for their existence.

    I'm only beginning to think through these things....your insights, observations and thoughts are appreciated.
    Deb
    "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Nietzsche

  • TomF
    Recalcitrant Heretic
    • Jun 2003
    • 50976

    #2
    Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

    In general, traits are reproduced because the chance mutations that give rise to them prove to be adaptive, to promote survival. Can you think of any chance mutation more adaptive than one that produces consciousness?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    • paladin
      Senior Senior Member
      • Dec 2000
      • 26476

      #3
      Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

      It's a conspiracy.....everyone has inserted at birth a preprogrammed plastic ROM that controls the synapse connections...when the chemical order to fire occurs, and the ROM disagrees, the synapse is interupted so that you only think good thoughts...good thoughts...good thoughts....
      Norman...Fractals are for antennas....
      Wakan Tanka Kici Un
      ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
      Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
      Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
      "If you live life right, death is a joke as far as fear is concerned."

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      • Nanoose
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2006
        • 10598

        #4
        Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

        Originally posted by Norman Bernstein

        yet her 'hardwiring' is still complex and sophisticated.

        human emotions, as complex as they are, are a consequence of the extraordinarily complex interaction of those nuerons and synapses... some of them 'hardwired' from birth, and some learned.
        But what I don't get is how the composites (neurons, etc) can give rise to that which is not wired. The existence of the brute matter doesn't account for all the instinctual actions you see in the cat.

        Yes, the PhD might be nice, but that means I'd have to wait a LONG time for an answer.
        "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Nietzsche

        Comment

        • Nanoose
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2006
          • 10598

          #5
          Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

          Originally posted by TomF
          In general, traits are reproduced because the chance mutations that give rise to them prove to be adaptive, to promote survival. Can you think of any chance mutation more adaptive than one that produces consciousness?
          The mutations of the brute matter give rise to the physical changes, yes, so if you mean physical traits (brain states) yes. That is would be a positive adaption, sure. BUt I don't see how to account for how we got there.
          "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Nietzsche

          Comment

          • P.I. Stazzer-Newt
            obnoxiously persistent.
            • Jan 2005
            • 26001

            #6
            Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

            Originally posted by Nanoose
            But what I don't get is how the composites (neurons, etc) can give rise to that which is not wired. The existence of the brute matter doesn't account for all the instinctual actions you see in the cat.

            Yes, the PhD might be nice, but that means I'd have to wait a LONG time for an answer.
            Complicated questions have simple answers.

            But they are usually wrong.
            I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

            Comment

            • huisjen
              innocent widdle bunny
              • Jun 2001
              • 8689

              #7
              Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

              What do you mean by consciousness?

              Dan
              Master of The Ensign's Gig: a 7 1/2 foot flat bottom plywood skiff,
              and Prudence: Lightning #7896.

              Think Good Thoughts.
              Thoughts become words.
              Words become actions.
              Actions become habits.
              Habits become character.
              Character becomes destiny.

              Comment

              • TomF
                Recalcitrant Heretic
                • Jun 2003
                • 50976

                #8
                Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

                Originally posted by Nanoose
                The mutations of the brute matter give rise to the physical changes, yes, so if you mean physical traits (brain states) yes. That is would be a positive adaption, sure. BUt I don't see how to account for how we got there.
                I think it would be true of both the "brain state" and the "mental state," Deb. Though clearly the physical arrangement of matter to make the "brain state" would have to occur first. To use an analogy, aren't we talking about the distinction between hardware (the brain) and software (the thoughts)?

                To a point, the capacity of the brain could grow, in the absence of consciousness, through benefits to the organism in being able to recognize and locate food, mates, predators, etc. That's information gathering through the senses, information processing, and some crude kind of memory to resist having to re-learn stuff every time. It's easy to see how chance mutations that would give an edge in any of those areas would be adaptive, give an edge to whatever organism had them.

                I think once enough complexity exists that memory and learning is introduced, there may be enough complexity for consciousness. Seems to me that as the capacity for memory and the capacity for learning expands, that would lead towards a spontaneous mutation of thought occurring at some point, where the organism recognizes that it is doing the learning, the remembering. That there is an "it," distinct from the rest of the world. That's a logical extension of the processes that make learning and remembering adaptive in the first place.

                It's not a biological mutation, it's a mutation of thought ... but would be extraordinarily adaptive. And presumably, the offspring of that organism would have the same "hardware" that their parent did - be equally capable in physical terms of "running the software" of consciousness. The whole species could become conscious very quickly - in the course of a generation or two.
                If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

                Comment

                • ishmael
                  Banned
                  • Jun 2000
                  • 23518

                  #9
                  Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

                  Humans make consciousness, awareness of self in new ways. It's our metier. We broke free of simple evolution a long time ago. Look at the Neanderthal burials where there are tokens left. This indicates deference. We honor this person with a good token. Very sweet reminder.

                  I saw a gal on MPBN, wearing an earing that was at least two thousand years old. She'd cadged it, shame but also here it is. The same way some princess wore it. She, undoubtedly, intended to replace it.
                  Last edited by ishmael; 11-28-2008, 10:45 PM.

                  Comment

                  • SamSam
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2005
                    • 2907

                    #10
                    Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

                    Originally posted by Nanoose
                    If the universe is composed of only brute, inert matter, I don't get how we move from that to consciousness.

                    How do I get an idea or intentionality from brute matter? An idea isn't a brain state; I have to choose to reveal it. Meme theory doesn't account for their existence.

                    I'm only beginning to think through these things....your insights, observations and thoughts are appreciated.
                    Deb
                    Trying not to start a long endless circular thread, but the inability of questions like these to be answered and the seeming need of answers by some is where I believe religion started. Doesn't the Bible or a belief in God supply the answers?

                    Comment

                    • TomF
                      Recalcitrant Heretic
                      • Jun 2003
                      • 50976

                      #11
                      Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

                      Originally posted by TomF
                      ...lead towards a spontaneous mutation of thought occurring at some point, where the organism recognizes that it is doing the learning, the remembering. That there is an "it," distinct from the rest of the world. That's a logical extension of the processes that make learning and remembering adaptive in the first place..
                      As I think about this some more, the critical issues our species now faces will require essentially a reversal of some bits of this original thought mutation.

                      Though the birth of consciousness is recognizing a distinction between the individual and everything else ... that distinction is very partially true. Not seeing the limits of that distinction has led to the tragedy-of-the-commons history we have in relation to the environment, and our methods of conflict resolution within our species.

                      Many have long had the thought mutation our species needs to begin resolving these messes ... the deep understanding that we are individuals, but also part of everything else, tied to it. No more structurally important than other aspects of it.

                      Problem is, though that mutation is adaptive in the long term, it's mal-adaptive in the short term ... and will remain so until the crisis reaches a boiling point.
                      If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

                      Comment

                      • Flying Orca
                        Ruth, feck, and gorm
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 21319

                        #12
                        Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

                        The best "pop sci" writing I've read on this is Steven Pinker's How The Mind Works. He does a good job of working through the inner workings of the mind, albeit from the perspective of the evolutionary psychology of ten years ago. He carefully leaves the central mystery of consciousness alone, a delicacy some will appreciate, but overall it's a good introduction to the (relatively) current state of scientific thought on the question of mind.

                        As for that central mystery of consciousness, it's safe to say that we can't say. Pinker goes so far as to say that it may be something we cannot know, that understanding consciousness is outside the scope of our intelligence in the same way that viewing infrared light is outside the scope of our retinas. I'm not convinced; I suspect our ultimate apprehension of the nature of our own consciousness will arise from some combination of linguistics, evolutionary psych and its technological handmaidens (fMRI etc.), and a thinker with an Einsteinesque ability to frame the question in a new way that allows for its solution.

                        What are you doing about it?



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                        • Peerie Maa
                          Old Grey Inquisitive One
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 62422

                          #13
                          Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

                          The Science of Discworld trilogy by Pratchett, Stewart & Cohen also deal with this. If you don't enjoy Stewart and Cohen's chapters Pratchett will raise a smile.

                          Various studies of learning indicate that the brain goes through a process of growth when connections and switches are created in response to external stimuli, the memes. For example the hard wiring that creates the rules of grammar etc with in speech have to be learned by about the year seven, when the brain solders the last transistor to the board and moves on. A study of the deaf in central America has confirmed that if you try to teach language to a deaf child after seven and the best they can achieve is a pidgin form of the language.
                          From then on learned memes go into memory rather than the CPU.

                          I am using the computer as an analogy as computer scientists are creating simple processors capable of learning, and have developed the Turing test to work in the area of artificial intelligence. If science and technology can use silicon and trace elements to create simple models, I have no difficulty with mutation and evolution being able to achieve the same with some fatty tissue.
                          It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

                          The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
                          The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

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                          • Popeye
                            speedo
                            • Jun 2003
                            • 12030

                            #14
                            Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

                            i think its all based largely on one fact : people are stupid


                            Comment

                            • Tom Montgomery
                              Lurking since 1997
                              • Sep 1999
                              • 35611

                              #15
                              Re: Genes, Memes and Consciousness

                              I have the same question as Dan: What do you mean by conciousness? Are you referring to self-awareness?
                              "They have a lot of stupid people that vote in their primaries. They really do. I'm not really supposed to say that but it's an obvious fact. But when stupid people vote, you know who they nominate? Other stupid people." -- James Carville on the plethora of low-quality GQP candidates in the mid-term election.

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