Rebuilding a beauty "Cinnamon Girl"

[nam58]

Hello everyone, Been lurking in the background for a while here and on other forums picking up infromation on how to restore my best freind "Cinnamon Girl"
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/101_2665.jpg?t=1227250895
Before you all fall off of your chair laughing she didn't always look like this and will soon look like this.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/blackboat.jpg?t=1227251071

Ok it may take a couple of years but god willing if you are ever on Table Rock lake in southern Missouri you will see it someday.
I have already received some helpful infromation here and am sure that there is a whole lot more to be had in the comming years. She is a 19' 1958 Chris Craft Capri. and once the Queen of the Mississippi at Saint Louis, I was only 6 when I first grabbed a ski rope tied to her and will never forget it, what a ride. Well I am now 52 and have a new purpose in life. My Father gave me the boat about 12 years ago because of rot and engine troubles he decided to go fiberglass, I never thought it would happen but he gave me the boat I loved and the sign that hung near it for years in the garage.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/HPIM141.jpg?t=1227251857
Guess he couldn't pull that plastic boat in the garage with it there. Well my Father passed away since then and in his memory I am now restoring this beauty with the intent to pass it on to my son (now 8 years old) to live for another 50 years. Well its late here so will continue later.

[AussieBarney]

One does not laugh at another mans dreams or at his efforts. Welcome to the forum I hope the lads and ladies here treat you as they have treated me. You will find they are welcoming, highly skilled and very knowledgable. They also are very generous with that knowledge. keep us abreast of the rebuild. it looks like it be very educational. Barney

[mj_lover]

she should keep you out of trouble for a bit, sure be worth it though Chris Craft had some beautiful boats. Good luck! and take baby steps, but I'm sure you know that already

"One does not laugh at another mans dreams or at his efforts." well spoken, need more people with that attitude in this world

[michigangeorge]

That beautiful boat pictured is NOT a Chris Craft Capri but is likely a much more valuable boat. Do her up correctly and you will really have something :-)

[nam58]

Working on carving the stem section and have a couple of questions.
I have the two upper pieces down to the rough shape I need and now need to mark the nose to cut the joint for the top side battens and planks. Not sure if I should fit the pieces back on the boat and mark the current placement of the battens and planks on the new nose. or should I just mark these joints to be evenly placed on the nose? I ask this because when I replace the top side planks I plan on tring to mirror the planks on each side. I read that the proper way to plank the top sides is to resize a 6/4 plank into two 1/2 planks, one for each side and thus matching the grain pattern from side to side. The current topside planks do not match and infact they are not even the same size side to side. Looking at the planks it looks like they were placed as if the installer was laying a wood floor. Taking the left over plank from on stake and useing it as the first plank on the next stake. Well to mirror the planks the new planks will at best be the same as either the port or starboard sides not both. which to me means I won't be able to use the second side planks as true patterns. Hopefully that all makes some sence.

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/IMAG0006.jpg?t=1227329765

Thanks
Neal

[nam58]

Jim, Sorry if the first post was misleading. I started this project June 1st and quickly had the deck removed. I spent several weeks creating a spreadsheet to try to track fastners and other misc hardware so I had an idea of what needed to be purchased to put her back together which quickly became overwelming. I browsed several forums including this one looking for infromation and received a lot of info from all. The other evening I finnally figured out how to get a picture uploaded here and as several members here I decided to tell my story here. So I made my first post on this new thread and plan to add to it as I get the pictures uploaded. It won't take long to catch up. I have been reading and following several stories here and enjoy the stories and reading the tips and sharing the lessons learned by posters. I have a lot to learn and look forward to everyones input on my project. Here I think I have found a group intrested in the same outcome for my boat as I want. I grew up with this boat and love the look and feel of the wooden hull gliding across the water, theres nothing in the world like it and with god willing I"ll be teaching my son to ski just as my father did for me some 40 years ago.
I'm looking to keep the boat as orginal as possible but using modern technoligies (?), sealers, fastners and ect to make this beauty last another 50 years. to be continued

[nam58]

One of my major concerns with this rebuild is the engine. The boat has a Ford 312 interceptor and it has been nothing but trouble. We bought the boat in 1961 and it had the 312 in it at that time. Well since I started to work on her I have found out that it is not the orginal engine. I am told and belive that the boat came with a six and was quickly changed out before we bought it. Well I am not going back to a six to make it orginal but have concerns about sticking with the 312. In the late 60s we lost the transmission and at that time with out the internet were unable to locate a replacment. So my father with some help installed another transmission which required the engine to be moved fore and tilted up at 10 degrees to line up the drive shaft.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/HPIM1410.jpg

You can see in this picture the bloks installed under the motor mounts and the other trouble was the water pump, as you can see the one pictured is not the orginal. It was made by a freind of my father, it worked but looks like hell. I am looking to put a 350 in it, there seems to be plenty parts for that engine and they can be had at a reasonable price. I have spent several months tring to locate the orginal transmission with no luck to this point. A little later today I will post a picture of the transmission currently on the engine (need to get it uploaded yet.) The placement of the engine when we bought the boat is also in question. The boat allways had a problem planning out at sking speed. Remember that all of its running history was in the 60s and 70s when I was either to young to know the details or lost in my hippy days and in a fog. My father died in 2001 and am no longer able to get information from him. So I have the internet and forums like this one to figuure it out.
The 312 was wonderful, My five other brothers and sisters were pulled out of the water all at once and all on one ski a peice with no problem. Which is why a smaller six won't work for me.
The orginal transmission had a 10 degree off set which allowed it to set level and fully contained in the engine compartment. When the transmission was changed the engine was moved forward and then stuck into the passenger compartment which ment a reconfig of the cockpit which included back to back buckets. Not going to happen to my Cinnamon Girl, In fact the first thing I did when the boat was given to me 12 years ago was I ripped out the seats and trashed them, never to be seen in my boat again. Need to cook lunch so be back a little later.

[nam58]

Thank god for ramon noodles and grilled cheese, easy lunch.
I mention that I would have pics of the transmission and I was able to down load them. Not sure what the make of the transmission is but here it is.

http://s441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/th_HPIM1427.jpg

lets see if I can get a bigger image.

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/HPIM1427.jpg?t=1227381013
In this picture you can see the blocks under the front mounts and see that the back is at normal height which lined upp the drive shaft. You can't see the through hull fitting which looks like it was moved at some time. The next set of bottom frames behind the transmission were cut off above the keel and the two carrage bolts that hold the keel to the frames were cut off, infact when I remoced the keel the heads of the two carrage bolts were still in the keel. Hopefully this next picture will show what I am talking about. This picture was taked after the boat was flipped and the bottom planks removed.

http://s441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/th_100_2681small.jpg

Sorry about the sizes. When I was trying to upload when I first started I downsized the picture to try to get it to upload. The keel is laying upside down and next to where it belongs but is in the correct location as far as fore and aft goes. As you can see the set of frames were cut to allow the through hull fitting to set on the keel. When I inspected the keel after removing it I found no indacation that there ever was another hole in the keel. So I am guessing that it came from Chris Craft like this or when whoever put the 312 in it replaced the keel at that time.
What I am trying to figure out here is where to drill for the drive shaft fitting and if and how to rebuild this set of frames to connect as they should. One other note on this, When I pulled the bottom planking off I found that every fastner on the port side with in about 2 foot off the water intake for the engine was broke off. Not sure if this was because of the modifacation done to these frames or something else, any ideas?

[georgel]

If she is a Chris. then All the original specs should be available from the builder. Also Chris used a lot of 283 and 305 chev. engines in those vintage boats. the 6cyl. engines were Chrysler crowns. I would do some checking with Chris Craft. as the [283 ]/305 chev. may have been an option back in the day and therefore a drop in replacement.

[nam58]

I have a copy of a sales flyer for the Capri and it does not mention a eight for this boat. I was able to track down a former Chris Craft employee, he informed me that the 283 was offered late in 58 but very few boats came out with it. I was told that Chris Craft never used ford though. I don't heear a whole bunch of good about the 283 which is why I am thinking 350 at this point.

[pcford]

busy day again. back with you again later or tomorrow.

[nam58]

Good to hear from you again PC. As you can see I am trying to udate what I've done so far. I have posted the couple of pictures I was talking to you about, when you get a chance let me know what you think.

[nam58]

After pulling the engine I built a set of "Wheels" to roll this baby over. I spent a couple of weeks and just over $100 to build them and boy did they work well. I had seven people tp preform the job but could have done it with three. Each Wheel is in two peices, the first is the solid part that is made of 1' by covered by 7/16" particle board. these peices have slots built in them to hold the other side which is 1x4 built like a U. two screws in both the top and bottom hold the two peices together around the boat. The wheels were built so when the boat was flipped it sat on two dollys I built. It took three minites to flip and remove the wheels and roll the boat in to the garage. The beer I had after wards was the best ever seeing that all tat planning worked out perfectly.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/100_2589.jpg?t=1227388621

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/100_2591small.jpg?t=1227388687 (javascript:void(0);)

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/100_2599.jpg?t=1227388764

Almost made me feel like I knew what I was doing.

[MickG]

HI:
Your boat has a bow like a Capri or a Rivera which was replaced by the Capri in 1955. However, the dash and the windshield look like a 1939 or 40 Barrel Back CC. If it is Chris, it will have a Hull Number in several places, among which are the deck
beams at the back of the seats, along the engine stringers and some of deck beams under the foredeck. The numbers should be the same, and if you contact the Maraitime Muesum at Norfolk VA, they will be able to get you a copy of the original hull card which will tell you everything you might wish to know about your boat. Year, model, engine, upholstery, the dealer who purachaed it , etc. Good luck. Mick G

[nam58]

Thanks for the reply Mick, The boat I am redoing is a 1958 Capri 19'. I as of yet have not been able to find a hull number in any of the places mentioned. My father was a painter and the interior has so many coats of paint it is very hard to get doun to the wood with out damaging the numbers. I am currently working on the engine stringers. striping and then lightly sanding hopeing that the paint in the stamped numbers will appear. Getting the orginal infromation is what I am hopeing for, but if it does not work I will continue rebuilding.

[nam58]

Been having way to much fun with that photobucket thing. Compiled a bunch of pictures that pretty well show my progress so far. check it out and let me know what you think. Need to quit playing here and get back to work soon so I can add more.

http://s441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/?albumview=slideshow

[The Bigfella]

That looks like a Borg Warner 71 gearbox to me - same as on my twin 4-53 Detroits. I haven't had any problems getting parts for them - eg

http://www.marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page198.html

[nam58]

Haven't tried to get parts for that transmission. It doesn't fit in the boat, to long and the engine needed to be moved forward which messed up the passanger compartment. Thinking about a Chevy 350 with a (I belive) a 71 series Transmission. There is a picture earlier in the thread that shows how the engine was proped up in the front and moved forward.

[The Bigfella]

Haven't tried to get parts for that transmission. It doesn't fit in the boat, to long and the engine needed to be moved forward which messed up the passanger compartment. Thinking about a Chevy 350 with a (I belive) a 71 series Transmission. There is a picture earlier in the thread that shows how the engine was proped up in the front and moved forward.


Umm - I think you will find that is a 71 series transmission.

[nam58]

shows what I know. Do you have an idea what transmission would fit on a ford 312? The orginal I belive had a 10 degree offset. It went out in the early 70's when my father owned the boat and he passed away in 2001 so can't get the infromation from him.

[The Bigfella]

Sorry - can't help there. You may be better with a V drive transmission, which would allow you to run the engine more level.

As I understand them, they go forward of the engine and drive a shaft that goes back under the engine.

[pcford]

First, I would advise never to roll over a boat using your method. There is something about men and moving heavy objects that leads to confusion and possible injury. Everybody starts shouting instructions...a mess. Probably testosterone poisoning.

I use two straps suspending the boat from large snatch blocks. A single person can do it. Any male seeing this operation will insists on helping. Don't let them. Much safer to do alone. Really.

Second point. I am guessing that you were skiing with the boat using the rear lifting eye. The eye is not meant to take strain that way. Also for performance reasons, the towing ring should be forward of the engine. I've built them...a bit of a hassle.

The brass clips are definitely not original. To some extent they will detract from the resale value. As I have mentioned in a previous post, they may in fact be an improvement over the original method...a long screw through the chine and into the end grain of the frame. However the clips don't look very pretty.

The original engine was likely a K or M Chris....I don't believe a 283 would have been offered. A K was most likely. The Ks and Ms are good engines. Relatively easy to get most parts.

Modern power is most often a 350 with a 1 to 1 transmission.

You have a huge job....but it certainly is possible. I have brought back boats in worse shape.

Chopping the rabbet is one of the worst jobs in restoring a runabout. I usually do part on the bench and the rest with the stem on and checking the bevel of the rabbet with a batten every few minutes. I don't know an easy method.

[nam58]

Thanks for your reply, Other than the saftey factor is there a problem with a roll like that as far as the boat goes? Every thing seemed to go well. Is there plans out there on how to strengthen the bace lift eye to use for sking, The rig that you mention would not work well or a least look good.
Those brass clips had to be a SOB to install, Is there a benifit in having them there? I don,t think I would ever show this boat. I am more intrested in prolonging the life of it. I am leaning towards a 350 for her and am wondering if the thru-hull fitting in the keel needs to be moved? As I mention before this hole in the keel is in a bad spot and I cant belive that it is in it's orginal location. I know that the chine plank on both sides was removed to put the clips on and I am betting that a new bottom was installed at that time and the hole was redrilled to match up with the ford 312. The boat never did plane real well till reaching higher speeds. If I moved the thru-hull fitting fore so I could reinstall the proper framing how would that effect the planning action. I am asumeing that the 350 would still fit in the engine compartment.

[pcford]

Thanks for your reply, Other than the saftey factor is there a problem with a roll like that as far as the boat goes? Every thing seemed to go well. You were lucky.
Is there plans out there on how to strengthen the bace lift eye to use for sking, The rig that you mention would not work well or a least look good.
Why wouldn't it work well? Look at any modern ski boat...it will have the ski line hook up roughly a third of the way forward. The ring comes through the deck just forward of the hatch. These boats were _not_ designed to be ski boats. The rear eye is the lift the boat and not for towing!!! You could pull the transom off the boat. Not a good thing.


Those brass clips had to be a SOB to install, Is there a benifit in having them there? I don,t think I would ever show this boat. I am more intrested in prolonging the life of it.
To be blunt, the clips look pretty rough. You should have done some research before powering into the restoration.


I am leaning towards a 350 for her and am wondering if the thru-hull fitting in the keel needs to be moved? As I mention before this hole in the keel is in a bad spot and I cant belive that it is in it's orginal location. I know that the chine plank on both sides was removed to put the clips on and I am betting that a new bottom was installed at that time and the hole was redrilled to match up with the ford 312. The boat never did plane real well till reaching higher speeds. If I moved the thru-hull fitting fore so I could reinstall the proper framing how would that effect the planning action. I am asumeing that the 350 would still fit in the engine compartment.

The keel definitely should not have a hole in it. (?)

I would recommend that you contact a runabout restorer....not just a boat restorer. Arrange to buy a few hours of time from him...take a load of picture with you. Even better if you can have one come to see the boat in person.

It'll save you time and money in the long run.

[nam58]

PC I have done a ton of research, with out the hull numbers it is real hard to get all of the needed infromation about the boat. I understand the saftey aspect of rolling the boat over but to tell you the truth it was very easy, two or three people could have done it. I was in controll the entire way and no beer was consumed before the job was done. I actually felt real good about the process. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, infact I am gratefull for your input along with all the other input I get from various locations but need to weigh against my resources including money,time and equipment.
You may need to excuse my experence but the keel is the board in the middle of the bottom of the boat is it not? If so both the drive shaft and rudder pass through this board and thus it needs two holes in it. Please correct me if not right.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/100_2700.jpg
http://pic.photobucket.com/spacer.gifhttp://pic.photobucket.com/spacer.gif
You can see most of the keel in this picture including the hole drilled for the drive shaft. As you can see the hole is on top of a set of frames which I have already cut but am not sure if I should plan on moving the hole fore and rebuilding that set of frames. You cant see it well in this picture but in the joint cut on either side of the keel ther is two holes which had the head portion of the carrige bolts that orginally held the keel to the frames at this station. At some point these bolts were cut off and frames cut from underneath the keel to place the brass thru-hull fitting for thr drive shaft. Thanks again to all for their replys and time. Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[pcford]

PC I have done a ton of research, with out the hull numbers it is real hard to get all of the needed infromation about the boat. I understand the saftey aspect of rolling the boat over but to tell you the truth it was very easy, two or three people could have done it. I was in controll the entire way and no beer was consumed before the job was done. I actually felt real good about the process. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, infact I am gratefull for your input along with all the other input I get from various locations but need to weigh against my resources including money,time and equipment.
You may need to excuse my experence but the keel is the board in the middle of the bottom of the boat is it not? If so both the drive shaft and rudder pass through this board and thus it needs two holes in it. Please correct me if not right.

http://pic.photobucket.com/spacer.gifhttp://pic.photobucket.com/spacer.gif
You can see most of the keel in this picture including the hole drilled for the drive shaft. As you can see the hole is on top of a set of frames which I have already cut but am not sure if I should plan on moving the hole fore and rebuilding that set of frames. You cant see it well in this picture but in the joint cut on either side of the keel ther is two holes which had the head portion of the carrige bolts that orginally held the keel to the frames at this station. At some point these bolts were cut off and frames cut from underneath the keel to place the brass thru-hull fitting for thr drive shaft. Thanks again to all for their replys and time. Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Of course, there are holes in the keel. One is for the shaft log and the other is for the rudder port....when you mentioned having a hole in the keel I assumed that you were talked about an additional hole...I was thinking perhaps a raw water inlet.

By the way, it's a propeller shaft, not a drive line. I don't mean to be a wise guy but it is less confusing if you use the correct terms. The fitting to which you refer is the shaft log. The hole in the keel through which the shaft passes I call the shaft log hole...I don't believe there is another name.

I am certain that the shaft log should not have to be moved if you used a 350. Again, you should be in touch with other owners of your model to see which marinization and configuration will fit best in your boat. The best way to find these people is by using the ACBS directory.

If I had a better picture of the frames to which you refer I might be able to help you.

Should add...are you sure you got white oak for frames? Dealers often sell you the wrong stuff.

[nam58]

Sorry about the terms I use, I try to be clear and in time I am sure I will get them all. I have applied for membership with the ACBS, both the national and local Mississippi Valley Chapter just waiting for a confromation and membership user name, password and such. I have found a person who just finished a 56 Capri on Danenbergs site, just waiting for a reply, hopeing for pictures from him. I am sure that some of my questions , terms, and presentace tends to bother some of the more experenced members on sites I visit, but I have all the confidence in the world in my ability to complete this project and complete it correctlly. I spend untold hours searching the internet for infromation, reading books and inspecting pictures making sure in my head that my next step is the correct one. So far I have found this site to be the best rounded as far as infromation goes. I have received and continue to receive important infromation from the danenberg forum but that forum really sticks to his books, Theres nothing wrong with that, he has a proven method and track record and I use his books as a guide for the work ahead. I value all of the infromation I get every were and weigh it against all of the other infromation
I get before I make a decsion about anything. Hopefully I won't wear on all of the contacts I make for at least the next 3 or so years.
PC What angle of picture would you like to see of the shaft log hole, I would be happy to get it and post it for viewing. This section of the rebuild has me the most concerned. As mention before I have reports and somewhat remember the boat not plannig correctly and reallt think that the placement of the ford 312 had a lot to do with it. I have been told that Chris Craft should have the infromation I need But after weeks and weeks of looking I still have not been able to find hull mumbers (haven't given up yet). My father was a painter and the interior of this boat has layers and layers of paint on everything, it's a tough job getting those layers off to get down to the wood, if there is a number there I will find it.
Thanks to all.
Neal

[pcford]

Everyone has different methods, but Danenberg's are certainly very sound. You would do well to follow his books.

I would be very surprised if the numbers are gone from the starboard stringers. Aft of the after engine mount.

I doubt if the engine/shaft log angle is incorrect. More likely the prop is not correct. Most likely the prop pitch is too great; maybe the same prop as was used with the original engine. It might be possible to repitch the prop.

[C. Ross]

nam58-
You are a lucky fella. A nice project, and you're getting one-on-one advice from almost certainly the best runabout guy on this forum.
Keep posting!

[MickG]

HNi:
Mick G again. Chris Craft came out with the 185 HP engine in 1958. It was based on a Chevy 283. this engine was an option for the Capri. It would be the best option for your boat as the flywheel is forward, this enabling you to m ount the engine in the correct position and the correct angle.
The best bet to find one of these engines would be to go boat yards and look for Chris Craft cruisers. Most of these boats are in bad shape, but their engines can be purchased cheaply. Because the would be aprox 50 years old, they would need rebuilding. One could go to the junk yards and get 305, 307,327, or a 350. All of these will accept the marine conversion part.s. The crankshaft needs some minor machine work t correctly oil the tdransmission. Mick G

[nam58]

Thanks for the note Mick. It sounds like the 350 will set in the same place the 283 would have then. Finnly got my membership paper work for ACBS, working on contacting members with a like model Capri to figure out the back frames. Once I get that straight will be prepareing the keel.

[nam58]

Started carving the bullnose joint today, What a nerve racking job. Sure would hate to remake this peice again.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/100_3080.jpg?t=1230848265

[nam58]

Been banging on that bullnose nearly all day and moving along well. I have the port side down to about 3/8 deep, haven't started on the other side yet. There's got to be an easier way to cut this joint, I am useing a mallet and chisel.

[pcford]

Been banging on that bullnose nearly all day and moving along well. I have the port side down to about 3/8 deep, haven't started on the other side yet. There's got to be an easier way to cut this joint, I am useing a mallet and chisel.

Yes, they are a b!tch. As well as a chisel, I would try a manly disc grinder and rasps of one sort or another.

A good block plane with an adjustable mouth might be handy...or a spokeshave....can't remember what I have used but all of these sound likely. Just gotta try.

[nam58]

Just a quick note, Thanks to all that pointed me to the ACBS. I attended my first meeting and found the people to be great, helpful and welcoming. Although none of the members of the local chapter have a Capri one of the contacts provided this morning will save me nearly $300.00 on just the rebuild of the bottom because the vendor is somewhat local and the prices are a bit cheaper. Just that savings better than doubles the membership dues of the national and local chapters.
I am a some what old stuck in his way wantabe boat builder but need to acknowledge good make that very good suggestions poted by several members on this fourm. Thanks and look forward to all future interactions.

Neal Miller

[nam58]

PC thanks for your time the other evening. Still cleaning frames and hopeing those numbers will appear.
Thanks Again
Neal Miller

[nam58]

Found a piece of lumber that I just had to have but not sure if it will work for my transom. It is the right size but not sure if it would be stable at 1/2" and not crack.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/100_3086.jpg?t=1231201823
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/100_3085.jpg?t=1231201899
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq133/nam58/100_3087.jpg?t=1231201955

Not sure if you can tell much from the end shot, but the grain pattern sure is pretty. What do you think?