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PatCox
11-19-2008, 10:09 AM
Here's one who holds annual protests of the torture school the Army runs at Fort Benning, and supports ordination of women; the Vatican is threatening to excommunicate him.

"No fear: Activist Priest unbowed by excommunication threat
Vatican rebukes him for woman's ordination

For years, the Rev. Roy Bourgeois has spoken out frequently -- even on Vatican Radio -- against a policy that his Roman Catholic Church superiors say is unchangeable.
He has said the male-only priesthood amounts to "sexism" which, "like racism, is sinful."

Now Bourgeois is on the brink of excommunication after he was moved beyond words into action when he was invited to Kentucky for an ordination liturgy for a Lexington woman.

Bourgeois didn't just attend the event in August: He preached the sermon, helped celebrate Mass with the woman, Janice Sevre-Duszynska, and placed his hands on her head in a blessing.

Bourgeois received an Oct. 21 letter from the Vatican indicating that unless he recanted -- which he said he has no intention of doing -- he would face excommunication in 30 days. Excommunication is a rare and severe penalty that would cut him off from the sacraments, rights and privileges of a priest and as a member of the church.

Bourgeois interprets the letter to mean Friday, which just happens to mark the start of an annual event for which he is best-known: waging high-profile protests by thousands of peace activists against a U.S.-run military school for Latin American students at Fort Benning, Ga., that protesters link to human-rights abuses.

"It will be very painful if I am excommunicated," he told The Courier-Journal. "However, I feel in conscience I must do what I'm doing."

In a letter to the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Bourgeois wrote: "Women in our church are telling us that God is calling them to the priesthood. Who are we, as men, to say to women, 'Our call is valid, but yours is not?' "

If he is excommunicated, he plans to go to Rome to appeal in person. "I feel it's reasonable to be able to go to Rome as a priest for 36 years and request a meeting with Pope Benedict," he said.

. . .

Popes have repeatedly said that the priesthood is open only to men.

In 1994, Pope John Paul II declared that "in order that all doubt may be removed," he was definitively stating that "the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women." He cited the church's longstanding teaching tradition and the example of Jesus, who picked only men as apostles.

Bourgeois disputed that interpretation, noting that Jesus told women to proclaim his resurrection to the apostles, who were "in hiding behind locked doors."

He and Sevre-Duszynska have known each other for several years, both protesting at Fort Benning.

. . .

Activist is not afraid
Bourgeois, 69, a Vietnam War veteran, has served as a priest in the Maryknoll Fathers and Brothers, an order known for its social activism.

He leads the group SOA Watch, which seeks to shut down the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation at Fort Benning, known in a previous form as the School of the Americas. He says it has been linked to human-rights abuses among its graduates in repressive Latin American regimes.

School representatives say the institute teaches democracy and human rights.

A Pentagon review released in 1996 found that the school used training manuals that advocated executions, torture, blackmail and other forms of coercion against insurgents.

Maryknoll spokeswoman Betsey Guest said that the order's leaders have talked extensively with Bourgeois and are seeking to ensure that his rights under church law are respected. She declined to comment further.

Spokeswoman Mary Ann Walsh of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops also declined to comment.

Bourgeois said he was emboldened by his father, in his 90s, who told him that God protected him in Vietnam and Latin America and that "God is going to take care of Roy now."

Added Bourgeois, who spent more than four years in U.S. and Bolivian prisons for his protests, "If you don't fear prison, you don't fear a letter from the Vatican."

Vince Brennan
11-19-2008, 10:33 AM
Of COURSE most Catholic priests (capitalize?) are good, honest, dedicated men who have given their lives to their faith and service to their beliefs.

Some are extraordinary in their service to their fellow man and some (unfortunately) are perverts and do not deserve the appelation of "holy man". It is the same no matter where you go... there's always that small minority who just should never have become (a priest) (a soldier) (a cop) (a teacher) (the list goes on).

Unfortunately we tend to take the minority and paint the majority with them.... we saw it here during the elections when anyone with a conservative viewpoint who stood up for it was immediately designated "target of the month" and "wingnut extroardinaire".

So it is with the Vatican, whose attitude has always been mostly, "My Way or the Highway"... so it is with any organization.

Some day we'll be able to condemn those who deserve it while still being able to appreciate and thank those who merit it.

Dunno when, though.

John of Phoenix
11-19-2008, 10:37 AM
Good for Father Roy. Taking on the govt at SoA is one thing, taking on the Pope is something else altogether.

Excommunication, eh? With a name like Bourgeois he's lucky to escape the torch.

Captain Blight
11-19-2008, 10:48 AM
Some of the bravest me throughout history have been Catholic priests. Think of the Conquistadores: For all their later excesses, those original expeditions were not at all for the faint of heart or the meek of character.

The best of them are far, far better than I can ever hope to be. One man in my hometown, Fr. Andrew, has been a friend and a guide to me all my life (and I was reared Lutheran!), and I couldn't have asked for a better role model. Even my old man, even in his dourest moments, approved!

Bob Cleek
11-19-2008, 07:11 PM
He may need a new Church. We Episcopalians would be very pleased to see him.


Great idea, Andrew! I keep hearing about disgruntled Anglicans dissatisfied with homosexual bishops and women priests who reestablish communion with the Roman Church. (I'd hope they'd be making their decision for more positive and less reactionary reasons, but we'll take 'em anyway we can!) Some of the Anglican priests who have returned have continued their ministries as Roman Catholic priests, and remain married as well, so, yes, we do have some married priests, thanks to the Lutherans and Anglicans. Turnabout seems fair play.

So, we'll swap ya yours for ours... it ought all come out even in the end!

Nicholas Scheuer
11-19-2008, 07:22 PM
I've know a number of good Catholic Priests and Pastors in our moves around the country.

Know a few good Episcopal priests and one Deaconess, too. The deaconess and her Priest-husband are fine sailors, too.

Moby Nick

ishmael
11-19-2008, 07:43 PM
Com'on, that some people decide on celibacy doesn't twisted make. Absolutely, some get or are twisted, but not most. They just feel some different calling.

A good book, by a guy who chose the priesthood and a cloistered life, is Merton's "Asian Journal." A very bright light that was put out way too early.

He was no prude. He saw, embraced the profligate, lived it as a young man. Decided against it but was in no way judgmental about his decisions. A Trappist monk with a lot of wisdom.

Bob Cleek
11-19-2008, 09:13 PM
Oh, Ish... if you start reading Thomas Merton, you're lost for sure! LOL I'd heartly endorse anything Merton wrote, but beware, the depth of Merton's spirituality is catching. Of all the famous people I've made acquaintance with over the years in my somewhat eclectic life, meeting "Father Tom" when I was a young man was the one thing I wish I'd appreciated more at the time.
Back then, I figured he was just another Trappist who'd written some books, but what did I know? I was just a kid in my late teens. He died shortly thereafter. He'd been passing through on his way to that conference in Bankok where he died tragically turning on a badly wired fan switch after getting out of the shower. He was another Anglican who "returned" to communion with the Roman Church, BTW.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/TMertonStudy.jpg/200px-TMertonStudy.jpg

Thomas Merton (31 January 1915 – 10 December 1968) was one of the most influential Catholic writers of the 20th century. A Trappist monk of the Abbey of Our Lady of Gethsemani, in the U.S. state of Kentucky, Merton was a prolific poet, a social activist, a student of comparative religion as well as the author of numerous acclaimed works on spirituality. He wrote more than 60 books, scores of essays and reviews, and is the subject of several biographies. Merton was a keen proponent of inter-religious understanding, engaging in spiritual dialogues with the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh and D. T. Suzuki. His life and career were suddenly cut short at the age of 53, when he was electrocuted stepping out of his bath.

Saltiguy
11-19-2008, 09:24 PM
[quote=Captain Blight;2014263]Some of the bravest me throughout history have been Catholic priests. Think of the Conquistadores: For all their later excesses, those original expeditions were not at all for the faint of heart or the meek of character.

Excesses? Did you say excesses?

Bravery? These were men whose highest ambition was to martyr themselves for the glory of Rome. Today, we would call it simple insanity.

Tom Montgomery
11-19-2008, 09:32 PM
I've enjoyed Thomas Merton's books. I discovered him after reading D.T. Suzuki's Essays in Zen Buddhism.

He was not only a profound and deeply spiritual man, but also refreshingly human. Here was a Trappist monk who occasionally sneaked out of the monastery in disguise to have a drink with his friends. He also fell deeply in love with a young Louisville nurse in 1966. He called the relationship an "affair."

ishmael
11-19-2008, 09:42 PM
I'd like to fly a kite with Thomas Merton.

Bob Cleek
11-20-2008, 04:01 AM
Then do it!

(How's that for a little bit of zen?)

TomF
11-20-2008, 07:55 AM
I suspect Merton would have a hard time holding the kite string just now :).

I envy you, Bob. Even if you didn't pay the attention at the time that now you wish. But Merton would have appreciated the relative anonymity, I suspect.

ishmael
11-20-2008, 08:43 AM
"He was not only a profound and deeply spiritual man, but also refreshingly human."

Yeah, from what I've read that sums it up well. He was, from the bios I've read, a bit of a party animal when young. Maybe that accounts for his human-ness. He understood the fallibility of just being alive and so could never lord it over people; was never at all a "stick" like some who've been in the religious life since they were little. I envy you, Bob, that you got to meet and speak with him.

It's been awhile since I read a bio, but IIRC he took his undergraduate degree at Oxford. A very bright bulb. The man sure could write.

His "Asian Journal" was a swan song, published after his untimely death. It's a bit spotty, and could have used a bit more editing, but his genuine love and humility in the face of vast differences in culture shines like a light. He was a good one!

RIP brother Merton. Maybe we'll fly a kite together some day. I'm not in any hurry, so will try to stay clear of wonky electrics.;)

Tinman
11-21-2008, 08:41 PM
Here's one who holds annual protests of the torture school the Army runs at Fort Benning, and supports ordination of women; the Vatican is threatening to excommunicate him.

"No fear: Activist Priest unbowed by excommunication threat
Vatican rebukes him for woman's ordination

For years, the Rev. Roy Bourgeois has spoken out frequently -- even on Vatican Radio -- against a policy that his Roman Catholic Church superiors say is unchangeable.
He has said the male-only priesthood amounts to "sexism" which, "like racism, is sinful."

Now Bourgeois is on the brink of excommunication after he was moved beyond words into action when he was invited to Kentucky for an ordination liturgy for a Lexington woman.

Bourgeois didn't just attend the event in August: He preached the sermon, helped celebrate Mass with the woman, Janice Sevre-Duszynska, and placed his hands on her head in a blessing.

Bourgeois received an Oct. 21 letter from the Vatican indicating that unless he recanted -- which he said he has no intention of doing -- he would face excommunication in 30 days. Excommunication is a rare and severe penalty that would cut him off from the sacraments, rights and privileges of a priest and as a member of the church.

Bourgeois interprets the letter to mean Friday, which just happens to mark the start of an annual event for which he is best-known: waging high-profile protests by thousands of peace activists against a U.S.-run military school for Latin American students at Fort Benning, Ga., that protesters link to human-rights abuses.

"It will be very painful if I am excommunicated," he told The Courier-Journal. "However, I feel in conscience I must do what I'm doing."

In a letter to the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Bourgeois wrote: "Women in our church are telling us that God is calling them to the priesthood. Who are we, as men, to say to women, 'Our call is valid, but yours is not?' "

If he is excommunicated, he plans to go to Rome to appeal in person. "I feel it's reasonable to be able to go to Rome as a priest for 36 years and request a meeting with Pope Benedict," he said.

. . .

Popes have repeatedly said that the priesthood is open only to men.

In 1994, Pope John Paul II declared that "in order that all doubt may be removed," he was definitively stating that "the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women." He cited the church's longstanding teaching tradition and the example of Jesus, who picked only men as apostles.

Bourgeois disputed that interpretation, noting that Jesus told women to proclaim his resurrection to the apostles, who were "in hiding behind locked doors."

He and Sevre-Duszynska have known each other for several years, both protesting at Fort Benning.

. . .

Activist is not afraid
Bourgeois, 69, a Vietnam War veteran, has served as a priest in the Maryknoll Fathers and Brothers, an order known for its social activism.

He leads the group SOA Watch, which seeks to shut down the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation at Fort Benning, known in a previous form as the School of the Americas. He says it has been linked to human-rights abuses among its graduates in repressive Latin American regimes.

School representatives say the institute teaches democracy and human rights.

A Pentagon review released in 1996 found that the school used training manuals that advocated executions, torture, blackmail and other forms of coercion against insurgents.

Maryknoll spokeswoman Betsey Guest said that the order's leaders have talked extensively with Bourgeois and are seeking to ensure that his rights under church law are respected. She declined to comment further.

Spokeswoman Mary Ann Walsh of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops also declined to comment.

Bourgeois said he was emboldened by his father, in his 90s, who told him that God protected him in Vietnam and Latin America and that "God is going to take care of Roy now."

Added Bourgeois, who spent more than four years in U.S. and Bolivian prisons for his protests, "If you don't fear prison, you don't fear a letter from the Vatican."

It is so typical of those who don't understand what Catholisim is all about to hold up someone who insists on remaining within the church, and yet defy it's authority. This monk was, if i understand the drift of the conversation, not only not a good preist, he was in open rebellion, and unrepentant. If you want examples of "real" good catholic priests, here are a few names you might consider. St. Thomas Moore. Defied a king and lost his head. Maximillian Kolbe. Died at aushwitz in another mans stead who was sentenced to die by starvation. Pope John Paul 2 who was instrumental in bringing abou the fall of the soivet block. St. Francis of Asisi. Martyred in Japan. { I think it was japan } St. Augstine. One of the most brilliant minds the world has ever known, and the list goes on, and on and on. All of these men humbled themselves to the authority of the church instead of rebelling against it and calling for change. As Joh Paul 2 said, "..the curch has no authority to confer ordiantion on women.." Nor can it change any other fundamental doctrine for that matter so to conclude, let me use a qoute from one of the aforementioned men.
"Rome has spoken, the issue is closed"

Keith Wilson
11-21-2008, 10:26 PM
All of these men humbled themselves to the authority of the church instead of rebelling against it and calling for change. And this is a virtue? Well, I'm obviously not a Catholic; to each his own, I guess.

St Francis of Assisi died of natural causes in Italy, FWIW. You may be thinking of St. Francis Xavier, who did indeed make several voyages to Japan and other countries in Asia and made a lot of converts. He was also involved in starting the infamous Goa Inquisition, but that's another matter.

Tinman
11-21-2008, 11:31 PM
And this is a virtue? Well, I'm obviously not a Catholic; to each his own, I guess.

St Francis of Assisi died of natural causes in Italy, FWIW. You may be thinking of St. Francis Xavier, who did indeed make several voyages to Japan and other countries in Asia and made a lot of converts. He was also involved in starting the infamous Goa Inquisition, but that's another matter.

Indeed it is one of the greatest virtues. It is by being humble and obediant, we can set an example for our children to follow. "What do speaks so loudly, what you say I cannnot hear". Is it any wonder that so many children are disrespectful, rude and unruly? Not when their parents do not show them how to be otherwise it is not. You are right about Xavier, it was him and not Asisi. Did he begin an iquistion? Dunno. I do know that inquistions in general, where ususally run by political types, and where never condoned by the Holy See.

pila
11-22-2008, 12:19 AM
My first marriage was by a priest. I wasn't Catholic, and he and I discussed religion for a time. He lived across the street in the house belonging to the church. I didn't become a catholic, but we were quite good friends , and we "agreed to disagree":)

Vince Brennan
11-22-2008, 07:07 AM
Oh, goodie.... Another "Revisionist"!

Never sanctioned by the Holy See? "Political types"? You ARE kidding, I hope. If so, you forgot the emoticon. Here's mine::eek:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp

Tinman
11-22-2008, 09:18 AM
Andrew.

I did a little reading on the subject, and in large part you are correct. It is not for his actions as chancellor that he was cannonized, but for his refusal to accept a mere mortal as spiritual head of a church. In other words, he would not cede his catholisim, even when threatened with death. There is no doubt that "heretics" where tortured and burned, but this is hardly unique to More. It was a common practice by governments of the day to use such tactics. The Tudors where quite willing to engage in all kinds of severe punishments for far less crimes than heresy or treason.

As far as the inquistion goes, I stand by my original statement. The inquisition was a mechanisim used by secular governemtns to persecute their political opponents. Where there excesses? Of course. But I don't see any condemnation of Protestants in England who murdered Catholics en mass for not embracing the church of England, or for the whole Salemm Mass thing. I am reminded of teh old saying about a splinter and a log.

Tom Montgomery
11-22-2008, 10:20 AM
I do know that inquistions in general, where ususally run by political types, and where never condoned by the Holy See.

WHAT??? What you think you know is wrong.

You confuse Francis Xavier with Francis of Assisi and evidently know ZIP about the Inquisition. You appear to be a remarkably ill-informed Catholic.

As for "obedience," that was a virtue Jim Jones insisted upon. As did Charlie Manson. Virtually all cult leaders, as a matter of fact, are intolerant of dissent.

stumpbumper
11-22-2008, 12:00 PM
If Martin Luther had just been, "humble and obedient" we could still buy our way into heaven.;):D

Tinman
11-23-2008, 11:15 PM
WHAT??? What you think you know is wrong.

You confuse Francis Xavier with Francis of Assisi and evidently know ZIP about the Inquisition. You appear to be a remarkably ill-informed Catholic.

As for "obedience," that was a virtue Jim Jones insisted upon. As did Charlie Manson. Virtually all cult leaders, as a matter of fact, are intolerant of dissent.

On the contrary, I know a little more than the average guy does about the catholic church. Am I a theologian? No. But I have done and am doing a lot of reading on this and a whole host of other topics. So lets set aside teh inquistion for now. I stand by my statements, and it is also very old news. Your comments about obediance and Jim Jones are far more relevant. Are you suggesting that obediance by a Bishop to his vows taht he took willingly, is the same thing as some dereanged lunatic that inspires mass suicide? I certainly hope not. The church may not tolerate dissent, but it's members always have a choice that does not include drinking the koolaid. The concept of willingly taking your own life, and or encouraging others to do the same, is a grave sin, and never endorsed.

As far as indulgences are concerned, One of the things that Luther complained about was the selling of indulgences. And he was quite right to do so. That does not remove their effectiveness however. Even today, the church grants indulgences for people to mitigate their time in purgatory or that of a loved one. What has ceased, is the sale of the indulgence. That is where the error lay, not in the indulgence itself.If Luther had been obediant as you suggest, the world would have been spared much unnecessary grief.

Tom Montgomery
11-24-2008, 05:10 AM
You stand by your statement that the Inquisition was "never condoned by the Holy See???"

You make a completely false assertion and then mulishly "stand by it." What more can one say to you? Other than: I hope you enjoy talking to yourself.

Saltiguy
11-24-2008, 09:53 AM
[quote=Tinman;2017093]Andrew.


As far as the inquistion goes, I stand by my original statement. The inquisition was a mechanisim used by secular governemtns to persecute their political opponents. Where there excesses? Of course.

"Excesses"? Did someone say "excesses?"

Tinman
11-24-2008, 10:44 AM
So if I am to understand this thread correctly, you are saying that the politicians of the day did not trump up charges against their political enemies, nor manipulate the board of inquisitors for their own political ends? Is that the assertion here? Now for the sake of this discussion, lets agree that the church did in fact sanction inquistions, and that everything you have said is true and then some. What does that possibly have to do with the church today? To condemn her for actions taken by men long dead, 500 years ago, is akin to condemning the US as evil today for slavery duing her first 100 years. The bottom line is, that even if you are all exactly right, and I am simply blinded to the historical reality, I hardly think it has any reflection on the church as a whole. You might not like the Church of Rome, but don't let your hatred of her, cloud your historical perspective on the incalcuable acts of mercy and copassion done on her behalf over the centuries.

martin schulz
11-24-2008, 10:54 AM
If Martin Luther had just been, "humble and obedient" we could still buy our way into heaven.;):D

Right, why did that little fat disobedient monk have to criticise this system? Now we have to scutinise every decision we make - even our thoughts.

Tom Montgomery
11-24-2008, 11:27 AM
...for the sake of this discussion, lets agree that the church did in fact sanction inquistions, and that everything you have said is true and then some. What does that possibly have to do with the church today? To condemn her for actions taken by men long dead, 500 years ago, is akin to condemning the US as evil today for slavery duing her first 100 years. The bottom line is, that even if you are all exactly right, and I am simply blinded to the historical reality, I hardly think it has any reflection on the church...

It is not a reflection on the church. It is a reflection on you. Why should we engage you in discussion if you are ignorant of the history of the church? Worse, rather than do a little research (easily done) and admit your error, you mulishly dig in your heels and "stand by" your misunderstanding. And we are supposed to take your opinion seriously?

Keith Wilson
11-24-2008, 11:44 AM
So if I am to understand this thread correctly, you are saying that the politicians of the day did not trump up charges against their political enemies, nor manipulate the board of inquisitors for their own political ends? Of course they did. The church also sometimes trumped up secular charges against those it considered enemies. Any institution can be misused. However , there are several undeniable historical facts, which are confirmed by the Catholic Encyclopedia.:
- The Inquisition was indeed sanctioned, authorized, and encouraged by the Holy See.
- Its purpose was the elimination of heresy - thought crimes, improper religious belief.

Now that was indeed a long time ago, and the Roman Catholic Church no longer does such things. The last execution for heresy took place in Spain in 1826. Other variations of Christianity have also done similar things, some very unpleasant. But tinman, assuming you are Roman Catholic, it would be good if you learned something of the history of your religion. There is much good and much bad, and it's best to know about both.

Sam F
11-24-2008, 02:41 PM
"Lieutenant Vincent R. Capodanno, Chaplain Corps, USNR (1929-1967)

Vincent Robert Capodanno was born in Richmond County, New York, on 13 February 1929. He was educated at Fordham University and Maryknoll Seminaries in Illinois, Massachusetts and New York. Ordained a Catholic Priest in June 1957, he served as a missionary in Taiwan and Hong Kong in 1958-65. In December 1965, Father Capodanno received his commission as a Lieutenant in the Navy Chaplain Corps. He was assigned to the First Marine Division in Vietnam in April 1966. While serving as Chaplain with the Third Battalion, Fifth Marines, during combat with enemy forces in Quang Tin Province on 4 September 1967, he lost his life as he provided assistance and comfort to Marine casualties. For his heroism on this occasion, Lieutenant Vincent R. Capodanno was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.

USS Capodanno (DE-1093, later FF-1093) was named in honor of Lieutenant Capodanno."

Sam F
11-24-2008, 02:42 PM
"Chaplain Watters was a 40-year-old native of Jersey City, New Jersey. After his ordination in 1953, he served parishes in his home town as well as in Rutherford, Paramus, and Cranford, New Jersey.
In 1962 he became a chaplain in the Air National Guard and two years later entered active duty as an Army chaplain. In July 1967 he had already completed his 12-month tour in Vietnam but had voluntarily extended his service there by 6 months. On 19 November 1967 his unit was involved in close combat with the enemy. For his "conspicuous gallantry ... unyielding perseverance and selfless devotion to his comrades" on that day, Chaplain Watters was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor"

Sam F
11-24-2008, 02:43 PM
"Captain Joseph T. O'Callahan, Chaplain Corps, USNR, (1905-1964)

Joseph Timothy O'Callahan was born in Boston, Massachusetts, on 14 May 1905. He joined the Jesuit Order of the Roman Catholic Church in 1922, after graduation from preparatory school, and subsequently received degrees from several institutions of higher learning. He was ordained in 1934, and was a Professor of Mathematics, Philosophy and Physics at Boston College in 1929-37, Professor of Philosophy at the Jesuit Seminary of Weston College in 1937-38 and Director of the Mathematics Department at Holy Cross College, Worcester, Massachusetts, in 1938-40.

Father O'Callahan was commissioned as a Lieutenant (Junior Grade) in the Naval Reserve Chaplain Corps in August 1940. He was assigned to the Naval Air Station, Pensacola, Florida, in 1940-42, to the aircraft carrier Ranger in 1942-44 and to the Naval Air Stations at Alameda, California, and Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, into early 1945. Lieutenant Commander O'Callahan joined the aircraft carrier Franklin in early March 1945. A few weeks later, when his ship was badly damaged by a Japanese air attack, he distinguished himself comforting the injured and leading damage control and ammunition jettisoning parties. The ship's Commanding Officer described O'Callahan as "the bravest man I ever saw". For his heroism on board Franklin, Lieutenant Commander O'Callahan was awarded the Medal of Honor."

Sam F
11-24-2008, 02:50 PM
St. Edmund Campion

English Jesuit and martyr; he was the son and namesake of a Catholic bookseller, and was born in London, 25 Jan., 1540; executed at Tyburn, 1 Dec., 1581. A city company sent the promising child to a grammar school and to Christ Church Hospital. When Mary Tudor entered London in state as queen, he was the schoolboy chosen to give the Latin salutatory to her majesty. Sir Thomas White, lord mayor, who built and endowed St. John's College at Oxford, accepted Campion as one of his first scholars, appointed him junior fellow at seventeen, and, dying, gave him his last messages for his academic family. Campion shone at Oxford in 1560, when he delivered one oration at the reburial of Amy Robsart, and another at the funeral of the founder of his own college; and for twelve years he was to be followed and imitated as no man ever was in an English university except himself and Newman. He took both his degrees, and became a celebrated tutor, and, by 1568, junior proctor. Queen Elizabeth had visited Oxford two years before; she and Dudley, then chancellor, won by Campion's bearing, beauty, and wit, bade him ask for what he would. Successes, local responsibilities, and allurements, his natural ease of disposition, the representations, above all, of his friend Bishop Cheyney of Gloucester, blinded Campion in regard to his course as a Catholic: he took the Oath of Supremacy, and deacon's orders according to the new rite. Afterthoughts developing into scruples, scruples into anguish, he broke off his happy Oxford life when his proctorship ended, and betook himself to Ireland, to await the reopening of Dublin University, an ancient papal foundation temporarily extinct. Sir Henry Sidney, the lord deputy, was interested in Campion's future as well as in the revival which, however, fell through. With Philip Sidney, then a boy, Campion was to have a touching interview in 1577.
As too Catholic minded an Anglican, Campion was suspected, and exposed to danger. Hidden in friendly houses, he composed his treatise called "A History of Ireland" Written from an English standpoint it gave much offence to the native Irish, and was severely criticized, in the next century, by Geoffrey Keating In his Irish history of Ireland. Urged to further effort by the zeal of Gregory Martin, he crossed to England in disguise and under an assumed name, reaching London in time to witness the trial of one of the earliest Oxonian martyrs, Dr. John Storey. Campion now recognized his vocation and hastened to the seminary at Douai. Cecil lamented to Richard Stanihurst the expatriation of "one of the diamonds of England." At Douai Campion remained for his theological course and its lesser degree, but then set out as a barefoot pilgrim to Rome, arriving there just before the death of St. Francis Borgia; "for I meant", as he said at his examination, "to enter into the Society of Jesus, thereof to vow and to be professed". This he accomplished promptly in April (1573), being the first novice received by Mercurianus, the fourth general. As the English province was as yet non-existent, he was allotted to that of Bohemia, entering on his noviceship at Prague and passing his probation year at Brünn in Moravia. Returning to Prague, he taught in the college and wrote a couple of sacred dramas; and there he was ordained in 1578. Meanwhile, Dr. Allen was organizing the apostolic work of the English Mission, and rejoiced to secure Fathers Robert Parsons and Edmund Campion as his first Jesuit helpers. In the garden at Brünn, Campion had had a vision, in which Our Lady foretold to him his martyrdom. Comrades at Prague were moved to make a scroll for P. Edmundus Campianus Martyr, and to paint a prophetic garland of roses within his cell. Parsons and Campion set out from Rome, had many adventures, and called upon St. Charles Borromeo in Milan, and upon Beza in Geneva. Campion was met in London, and fitly clothed, armed, and mounted by a devoted young convert friend. His office was chiefly to reclaim Catholics who were wavering or temporizing under the pressure of governmental tyranny; but his zeal to win Protestants, his preaching, his whole saintly and soldierly personality, made a general and profound impression. An alarm was raised and he fled to the North, where he fell again to writing and produced his famous tract, the "Decem Rationes". He returned to London, only to withdraw again, this time towards Norfolk. A spy, a former steward of the Roper family, one George Eliot, was hot upon his track, and ran him and others down at Lyford Grange near Wantage in Berkshire on 17 July, 1581.
Amid scenes of violent excitement, Campion was derisively paraded through the streets of his native city, bound hand and foot, riding backwards, with a paper stuck in his hat to denote the "seditious Jesuit". First thrown into Little Ease at the Tower, he was carried privately to the house of his old patron, the Earl of Leicester; there he encountered the queen herself, and received earnest proffers of liberty and preferments would he but forsake his papistry. Hopton having tried in vain the same blandishments, on Campion's return to the Tower, the priest was then examined under torture, and was reported to have betrayed those who had harboured him. Several arrests were made on the strength of the lie. He had asked for a public disputation. But when it came off in the Norman chapel of the Tower, before the Dean of St. Paul's and other divines, Campion had been denied opportunity to prepare his debate, and had been severely racked. Thus weakened, he stood through the four long conferences, without chair, table, or notes, and stood undefeated. Philip Howard, Earl of Arundel, who was looking on in the flush of worldly pride, became thereby inspired to return to God's service. The privy council, at its wits' end over so purely spiritual a "traitor", hatched a plot to impeach Campion's loyalty, and called in the hirelings Eliot and Munday as accusers. A ridiculous trial ensued in Westminster Hall, 20 Nov., 1581. Campion, pleading not guilty, was quite unable to hold up his often-wrenched right arm, seeing which, a fellow prisoner, first kissing it, raised it for him. He made a magnificent defence. But the sentence was death, by hanging, drawing, and quartering: a sentence received by the martyrs with a joyful shout of Haec dies and Te Deum. Campion, with Sherwin and Briant, who were on a separate hurdle, was dragged to Tyburn on 1 December. Passing Newgate arch, he lifted himself as best he could to salute the statue of Our Lady still in situ. On the scaffold, when interrupted and taunted to express his mind concerning the Bull of Pius V excommunicating Elizabeth, he answered only by a prayer for her, "your Queen and my Queen". He was a Catholic Englishman with political opinions which were not Allen's, though he died, as much as ever Felton did, for the primacy of the Holy See. The people loudly lamented his fate; and another great harvest of conversions began. A wild, generous-hearted youth, Henry Walpole, standing by, got his white doublet stained with Campion's blood; the incident made him, too, in time, a Jesuit and a martyr.

Historians of all schools are agreed that the charges against Campion were wholesale sham. They praise his high intelligence, his beautiful gaiety, his fiery energy, his most chivalrous gentleness. He had renounced all opportunity for a dazzling career in a world of master men. Every tradition of Edmund Campion, every remnant of his written words, and not least his unstudied golden letters, show us that he was nothing less than a man of genius; truly one of the great Elizabethans, but holy as none other of them all. He was beatified by Pope Leo XIII on 9 December, 1886, and canonized by Pope Paul VI in 1970. Relics of him are preserved in Rome and Prague, in London, Oxford, Stonyhurst, and Roehampton. A not very convincing portrait was made soon after his death for the Gesů in Rome under the supervision of many who had known him. Of this there is a copy in oils at Stonyhurst, and a brilliantly engraved print in Hazart's "Kerckelycke Historie" (Antwerp, 1669), Vol. III (Enghelandt, etc.), though not in every copy of that now scarce work.

Sam F
11-24-2008, 02:56 PM
Henry Walpole (1558 – 7 April 1595) an English Jesuit martyr.

He was born at Docking, Norfolk, in 1558, the eldest son of Christopher Walpole, by Margery, heiress of Richard Beckham of Narford, and was educated at Norwich School, Peterhouse, Cambridge, and Gray's Inn. Converted to Roman Catholicism by the death of Saint Edmund Campion, he went by way of Rouen and Paris, to Reims, where he arrived, 7 July 1582. On 28 April 1583, he was admitted into the English College, Rome, and in October received minor orders. On 2 February 1584, he became a probationer of the Society, and soon after went to France, where he continued his studies, chiefly at Pont-ŕ-Mousson. He was ordained subdeacon and deacon at Metz, and priest at Paris, 17 December 1588.

After being twice imprisoned at Newgate for religion in 1586, Walpole arrived at Reims, 23 December 1589; he was ordained subdeacon at Laon, 23 September 1589, deacon and priest at Soissons, 17 March and 18 March 1590, was sent on the mission the following 9 April, and landed at Whitby. After acting as chaplain to the Spanish forces in the Netherlands, suffering imprisonment by the English at Flushing in 1589, and being moved about to Brussels, Tournai, Bruges, and Spain, he was at last sent on the mission in 1590. He was arrested shortly after landing at Flamborough for the crime of Catholic priesthood, and imprisoned at York. The following February he was sent to the Tower, where he was frequently and severely racked. He remained there until, in the spring of 1595, he was sent back to York for trial, where he was hanged, drawn and quartered on 7 April 1595.

Sam F
11-24-2008, 03:02 PM
St. Maximilian Kolbe
Maximilian was born in 1894 in Poland and became a Franciscan. He contracted tuberculosis and, though he recovered, he remained frail all his life. Before his ordination as a priest, Maximilian founded the Immaculata Movement devoted to Our Lady. After receiving a doctorate in theology, he spread the Movement through a magazine entitled "The Knight of the Immaculata" and helped form a community of 800 men, the largest in the world.

Maximilian went to Japan where he built a comparable monastery and then on to India where he furthered the Movement. In 1936 he returned home because of ill health. After the Nazi invasion in 1939, he was imprisoned and released for a time. But in 1941 he was arrested again and sent to the concentration camp at Auschwitz.

On July 31, 1941, in reprisal for one prisoner's escape, ten men were chosen to die. Father Kolbe offered himself in place of a young husband and father. And he was the last to die, enduring two weeks of starvation, thirst, and neglect." "After three weeks of dehydration and starvation, only Kolbe and three others were still alive. He encouraged others that they would soon be with Mary in heaven. Each time the guards checked on him he was standing or kneeling in the middle of the cell and looking calmly at those who entered, while the others lay moaning and complaining, on the ground around him. Finally he was murdered with an injection of carbolic acid. Some who were present at the injection say that he raised his left arm and calmly waited for the injection. He died soon after" " He was canonized by Pope John Paul II in 1981. His feast day is August 14th."

Sam F
11-24-2008, 03:04 PM
"Father Mychal F. Judge, OFM was a busy Franciscan priest who dedicated his life to serving God's people. He is known for his work with the homeless, recovering addicts, AIDS patients, and his work as chaplain to the New York City Fire Department.

On September 11, 2001, Father Mychal rushed from the friary at Saint Francis of Assisi Church to the scene of the World Trade Center attacks.

After administering last rites to a firefighter, Father Mychal was hit by debris and killed. He became the first officially recorded fatality following the attack.

During his life, Father Mychal spent much of his time ministering to the homeless on the Breadline at St. Francis of Assisi Church in New York City. This is one of the many places where he found God - in the hurting, the broken, the suffering, and the poor.

His dedication to homeless men, women and children has become a calling to us that manifests itself as Mychal's Message."

Sam F
11-24-2008, 03:06 PM
That's a few. There are thousands more.

Tom Montgomery
11-24-2008, 03:23 PM
Don't stop. Keep going!

Tinman
11-25-2008, 05:21 PM
Of course they did. The church also sometimes trumped up secular charges against those it considered enemies. Any institution can be misused. However , there are several undeniable historical facts, which are confirmed by the Catholic Encyclopedia.:
- The Inquisition was indeed sanctioned, authorized, and encouraged by the Holy See.
- Its purpose was the elimination of heresy - thought crimes, improper religious belief.

Now that was indeed a long time ago, and the Roman Catholic Church no longer does such things. The last execution for heresy took place in Spain in 1826. Other variations of Christianity have also done similar things, some very unpleasant. But tinman, assuming you are Roman Catholic, it would be good if you learned something of the history of your religion. There is much good and much bad, and it's best to know about both.

Kieth, tell ya what. I will admit to reacting first based on emotion. And in a setting like this, it is not a good idea. It gets my dander up when I see people attacking my church [ yes I am catholic ] either overtly, or by covert methods such as supporting a monk who is opposed to some of the basic guiding principles of the institution he claims to believe in. Far too many people think that religion in general, and I am speaking of christian faiths here, and the RC church in particular as some kind of smorgasbord where they get to pick and choose the parts of it's doctrine they like and leave behind what they are uncomfortable with. So I hope you can understand at least where I'm coming from. I do not care if people don't like the church. I just wish that if they find membership so difficult to deal with, that they would remember where the door is. You are also right that there is a very diverse and rich history but that is to be expected in an organization that is as old as this one is. Saints and sinners rub shoulders, and I'm ok with that too. After all, no one said you had to be prefect, you just have to keep trying.

Keith Wilson
11-25-2008, 05:35 PM
After all, no one said you had to be prefect, you just have to keep trying.And a good thing, too! On that point we can agree.

And I apologize if I got testy - I have a long history of arguments with SamF about various things that sometimes have gotten quite heated, and sometimes other Roman Catholics get some undeserved hostility on that account.

I'm certainly no Catholic, but if I were, and somebody brought up things from the bad old days like the Inquisition, I'd say something like "Yeah, that was really bad. We don't do that any more." Completely honest, and the argument evaporates.

Tinman
11-25-2008, 05:49 PM
Kieth.

I guess it's handshakes and olive branches. The other aspect I need to work on, is to admit when I've stuck my foot in my mouth. It's one thing to be stubborn, it is quite another to be stupid. :o)

Sam F
11-26-2008, 09:42 AM
And I apologize if I got testy - I have a long history of arguments with SamF about various things that sometimes have gotten quite heated, and sometimes other Roman Catholics get some undeserved hostility on that account.

You certainly do that.


I'm certainly no Catholic, but if I were, and somebody brought up things from the bad old days like the Inquisition, I'd say something like "Yeah, that was really bad. We don't do that any more." Completely honest, and the argument evaporates.

And what if someone points out that playing the blame game doesn't work unless you're blameless?
When someone says - "Yeah, it's really bad and you're still doing it now." - that's not so easy for ya'll to admit. ;)
I'd have a lot more respect for, and arguments would evaporate immediately with, people who realize they and their own societies are very far from perfect.
Playing the blame game and using double-standards are completely dishonest.

Tom Montgomery
11-26-2008, 09:54 AM
Hey Sammy, I am curious. Why do you read history? Just for entertainment?

Tom Montgomery
11-26-2008, 09:57 AM
Kieth.

I guess it's handshakes and olive branches. The other aspect I need to work on, is to admit when I've stuck my foot in my mouth. It's one thing to be stubborn, it is quite another to be stupid. :o)

You are OK, Tinman. But, as you can see, Sam wants to fight. He has just got to stir the pot.

Tinman
11-26-2008, 10:23 AM
I'm far too new a memeber to be passing judgement on anybody. I do admire Sam for his courage, and find myself agreeing with his points on doctrine. Although that shouldn't be a surprise. I think that if you where to meet in person and do a face to face, both of you would find far more to like about each other, than this forum allows for.

Keith Wilson
11-26-2008, 11:28 AM
Although that shouldn't be a surprise. I think that if you where to meet in person and do a face to face, both of you would find far more to like about each other, than this forum allows for.Probably. One major reason I come here is to discuss things in some depth with people who profoundly disagree with me; one can do this only rarely in real life. Disagreement is fine as long as one is reasonably respectful and polite. It's far too easy to do otherwise, and some seem to enjoy it.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/internet_argument.png


. . playing the blame game doesn't work unless you're blameless?And Sam, at the risk of starting the same old crap, I will say again that this is ridiculous. One does not have to be blameless to accurately point out bad things. The color of the pot is irrelevant to the color of the kettle. One can argue that the Albigensian crusade was a despicable atrocity, and the firebombing of Dresden is completely irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of that statement.

Sam F
11-26-2008, 11:47 AM
...And Sam, at the risk of starting the same old crap, I will say again that this is ridiculous. One does not have to be blameless to accurately point out bad things.

I agree with that. So how come it's "ridiculous"?


The color of the pot is irrelevant to the color of the kettle.

Of course. But if the pot didn't merely observe that the kettle is black - it "called the kettle black". That's a very different thing.
When one makes moralizing statements like:

One can argue that the Albigensian crusade was a despicable atrocity... ... it immediately calls into question the moral criteria of the speaker. It makes relevant the...
the firebombing of Dresden...
While it may be objectively speaking...
completely irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of that statement.... the moral component is inescapable. As in...
Yeah, it's really bad and you're still doing it now.

Sam F
11-26-2008, 11:49 AM
Again, I advise, if you're going to play the blame game, it is best to be blameless yourself.
It's not like I'm all on my own in making this observation:

"Any why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?"

Keith Wilson
11-26-2008, 12:01 PM
Have a nice Thanksgiving, Sam. Everybody else too.

Sam F
11-26-2008, 12:14 PM
Have a nice Thanksgiving, Sam. Everybody else too.

I have a lot to be thankful for and I hope that you do to!