traditional restoration inquiry

[Areva]

We recently purchased a classic Angleman Sea Spirit ketch that is mahogany with iroko framing and would like to use the most traditional eco-friendly methods possible in her restoration. We've already discovered le tonkinois varnish and stockholm pine tar but have not been able to find much on traditional wood filler and rot killer. (We're currently repairing the cabin sides) We were also wondering if anyone out there knows where to find traditional hemp rope for rigging? Any tips for working on old wood boats?

[Mrleft8]

No such thing as "rot killer". If you want to do it properly, you replace the rotted wood, and fix the problem that caused the rot. You can use some penetrating epoxy stuff, but that just prolongs the suffering.
Where are you located? Got pictures? (We love pictures!)

[Thorne]

Go to the User CP link in the upper left of this browser window, then click on the Edit Your Detaill on the upper left of that window -- then list your location.

R&W Rope carries some real hemp rope plus several varieties of faux hemp -- I like Hempex cause it is cheap and strong, but can be too soft for running rigging on larger boats. They also have other goodies like pine tar.
http://www.rwrope.com/traditional_rigging/rope_for_Running_Rigging.htm

These guys also have another newer faux hemp, some real hemp marline, and pine tar -
http://www.tarsmell.com

Here's how to post photos on this forum:

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Remember, the IMAGE URL will end in .jpg, not .htm or html. URLs ending in .htm are the page that the image is at, not the image location itself. If the image URL ends in other code, try deleting everything after the "xxxxxx.jpg" part of the URL to get it to display on web forums.

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If unsure of the procedure, test first by pasting the image URL into the
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[Peter Plones]

Le Tonkinois gives a good result on mahogany (Stockholm tar doesn't) I've used both on my former yacht (mahogany) There is a lot of knowledge to find on the wooden boat forum by using the search function, lineseed oil (boiled and raw), japan dryer, turpentine etc, In Europe (I'm not sure about your location) TOPLICHT is a good source for rigging needs and other traditonal restoration materials, good luck and a picture please?

[Ed Harrow]

I'm not certain that 'traditional' and 'eco-friendly' can co-exist. Traditional is stuff like red lead. To keep 'bugs' out of wood requires a poison of one sort or another.

As was stated, getting rid of rot is a surgical, not chemical procedure.

Also, welcome to the 'adventure' LOL.

[Doug Hamilton]

Real hemp rope is available from:
www.greenboatstuff.com

[Lew Barrett]

Ed beat me to it. Traditional approaches are generally not eco friendly, unless by traditional you mean dug out canoe. And even then you still have to reduce a tree to shards.

[Ed Harrow]

Another thing, treat anything where there is any doubt as toxic. Lead-based paint, rot 'preventative', etc, etc. I have a vac attached to my sander, and I'm pretty careful about washing my hands after handling Phoenix's innards. A damn site more careful than after handling other things ;)

Perhaps I'm overly concerned, but maybe not. YMMV.

[Areva]

Wow, that green boat site looks awesome! We haven't decided on a bottom paint yet but that project is probably over a year away so we have time to do a lot of research. It certainly won't be lead based but I'm not a big fan of petroleum products either. In fact we're hoping to convert our diesel engine to run off veggie oil, just like most of the diesel cars and trucks out here. Has anyone else tried this? We're planning on using the pine tar to seal our masts. Anyone reccomend any recipes or should we just use it straight? As far as the rot question goes we have some rotten wood in one corner of the our cabin sides that has eaten down into the end of a frame. We've managed to cut away and scrape out most of it and were going to try to salvage as much wood as possible and patch it. The entire area in question is smaller than a square foot but the corner location makes everything more complicated than it should be. Any advice?

[Thorne]

Be sure to make the distinction between running your motor on WVO and Biodiesel -- the latter is easy to use during warm weather and is often used on boats; the former requires separate fuel lines, multiple filters and a heated fuel tank. Not sure how well it would work on a boat...

Pine tar can be regarded as toxic, and was banned in most of Europe until just recently (I understand). May still be very hard to get over there, and expensive to get here. You may be better off using eco-friendly oils on your mast, but let's see what the more experienced folks say.

Post more info about your boat and include photos if you can.

[Mrleft8]

Cabin corner leaks are common, and often are more extensive than they appear. You'll probably have to cut the deck frame end back a bit to good solid sound wood (not just scrape the mushy bit off), and scarf in new wood to replicate the original. Take the cabin sides off and remove any "iffy" wood, and replace with new sound wood. Re-bed the cabin sides and re-install them. While you have the cabin sides off, check the surrounding deck/sub-deck for rot, and replace anything that is even slightly suspect.
Wooden Boat Magazine had a good recipe for pine tar soup a couple of issues ago.

[Areva]

We recently got some advice from a wooden boat repairman and he told us to use a mixture of anti-freeze and boric acid to prevent rot from spreading until we can fix the cabin sides properly. Has anyone tried this? It's supposed to work better than epoxy and not alter the structure of the wood the way epoxy does.

[Bob Cleek]

Wow, that green boat site looks awesome! We haven't decided on a bottom paint yet but that project is probably over a year away so we have time to do a lot of research. It certainly won't be lead based but I'm not a big fan of petroleum products either. In fact we're hoping to convert our diesel engine to run off veggie oil, just like most of the diesel cars and trucks out here. Has anyone else tried this? We're planning on using the pine tar to seal our masts. Anyone reccomend any recipes or should we just use it straight? As far as the rot question goes we have some rotten wood in one corner of the our cabin sides that has eaten down into the end of a frame. We've managed to cut away and scrape out most of it and were going to try to salvage as much wood as possible and patch it. The entire area in question is smaller than a square foot but the corner location makes everything more complicated than it should be. Any advice?

Well, yes, but are you really looking for "advice" or just "affirmation?"

If you are as over-the-top enthusiastic about being "eco-friendly" or whatever they are calling it these days, you should probably think about selling your wooden boat and finding another hobby. As much as we all want to preserve what's left of the environment, the course you are contemplating does not bode well for the continued health and longevity of your Angleman, nor for your ultimate satisfaction in owning her.

You are going to have to decide at some point whether to abandon your boat to its "natural" deterioration processes, or protect it from the same. Protecting it will necessarily require what for you may be some very difficult choices. Will you opt to kill the marine organisms that naturally live and depend upon your boat's bottom for their sustenance, or just let 'em munch away? Will you spend thousands of dollars on hard-to-find (because they are next to useless) "eco-friendly" materials that won't last a hot minute in the harsh marine environment or "bite the bullet" and buy synthetic line that will last ten times as long? How easy do you think it will be when the time comes to sell the only boat in the harbor that runs on used McDonald's french fry grease which isn't exactly readily available at fuel docks everywhere?

Think about it. Seriously. From your questions, it is obvious you have no clue what properly maintaining a boat the size you have is about. (Not a bad thing... experience begins when you start.) Somehow, though, I have the feeling that you may come to conclude properly maintaining and operating a wooden boat really just isn't a good fit for you. In the meantime, you are setting yourself up as sucker bait for all the latest crop of snake oil salesmen and flim flam artists who've climbed aboard the "green" wagon.

As for your rot, you must cut it out at the earliest opportunity and replace with new wood. There really isn't anything you can put on it that will solve the problem. It's the ecology, you see. Rot is a FUNGUS... a living organism. It eats wood. It also REPRODUCES. The way rot fungus reproduces, like all fungi, is by expressing AIRBORNE spores which settle on nearby wood and begin new colonies. In order to stop rot in a boat, you have to KILL IT. The only way to kill it is to remove the rotten wood where it is growning and burn it. Providing sufficient ventilation in a boat is about the best preventative one can employ, short of sealing the wood with penetrating epoxy, red lead paint, good oil based alkyd top coats and the rest. Beyond that, don't waste your time listening to wharf rats telling you to paint anti-freeze on it, which, by the way, is WAY more toxic and likely to make you really sick than red lead ever will!

As for bottom paint, let me save you a year's worth of "research." Picking a bottom paint is really easy. You go to the local chandlery or boatyard and you ask them which is the most popular brand sold in your neighborhood. (Different types work differently, depending on the local marine flora and fauna.) Just buy the most popular product. Simple as that. Don't waste your time reading paint salesmen's BS. "Eco-friendly" bottom paint is an oxymoron. Rest assured, if anybody ever devises a better bottom paint, it will immediately become the most popular product on the market.

[David G]

Areva,

From a fellow Oregonian, welcome. Know that I'm not an expert on traditional wooden boats. I am a professional woodworker, but all my boatbuilder has been plywood/epoxy composite. Nonetheless, I'm afraid I have to agree substantially w/Mr. CLeek. I wouldn't express it all so strenuously, nor as categorically as he has, but he's mostly right.

The only point I disagree with is the biodiesel. Maybe it's not happening in his neighborhood, but in Oregon more and more boats - both commercial and pleasure - are converting. Being in Newport, you'll easily discover this yourself. The technology is proven and reasonably convenient. All you need to do is hook up with the right folks to help guide you. I think there's a biodiesel co-op in Corvallis that'd be a good starting place.

The other mild disagreement is with his dismissal of anit-freeze and borax. That scheme is a perfectly reasonable StopGap measure. It won't cure the rot. It won't even stop it. But it will slow it down a bit while you get yourself organized to effect (as quickly as possible) the proper remedy.

And if you're looking for like-minded boaters in Oregon, check out the Western Oregon Messabout Society. The coots website:

http://www.coots.org/

And the Yahoo Group where we keep in touch and keep our calendar and library information:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/


"Experience starts once you begin" -- Pete Culler

[gregleeber]

How bout some eye candy ???

[Areva]

By "eco-friendly" I mean biodegradable not "not poisonous". Although that's nice when possible like the varnish I'm using. That being said, le tonkinois varnish has about a 10 year lifespan (and much longer if you apply a new coat every 3 years or so). That far exceeds any synthetic varnish I know of (you know the kind with the mile long warning label) As far as popular products, my understanding is that the most popular product is either the one that gets okay results for a really cheap price or the one that has the best marketing campaign. I'd rather spend the extra money to do things right. I realize that I need to replace the wood but right now is the rainy season in Oregon and the only repairman in town is booked for a year. Until we have the time and/or money to do it right (probably in the Spring) we need to poison whatever fungus is in there to at least slow it down. Apparently there is a less toxic kind of antifreeze that works just as well for the fungus.
And yes, I do eat all organic food. I beleive in treating my boat as good as I treat my body. Which means using chemicals ony when absolutely neccessary.

[Areva]

Hope this works. Here's a link to some photos, more later.
http://s445.photobucket.com/albums/qq174/blackcougar3/

[Bob Cleek]

"I realize that I need to replace the wood but right now is the rainy season in Oregon and the only repairman in town is booked for a year. Until we have the time and/or money to do it right (probably in the Spring) we need to poison whatever fungus is in there to at least slow it down. Apparently there is a less toxic kind of antifreeze that works just as well for the fungus."

Okay, take a hair dryer and dry the wood as best you can and as deeply as you can. Soak the entire rotten area with Smith's Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer (Now available at Ace Hardware stores, I believe.) That will stabilize the wood and stop the rot in the immediate area, but, like cancer, if you don't get all of it, it will continue spread. (Don't believe advertising that may say "Restores rotted wood.") That is the way most all professionals I know would tackle the probem if replacement wasn't immediately possible. Sorry, but CPES is an epoxy based product and it's full of nasty poisonous solvents, so use in a well ventilated area and don't drink the stuff. Beyond that, you'll live.

I'm sorry to beat you up, if in fact it feels that way. After decades of playing this game, I am sorry to have to report that ninety-nine percent of the time, the "eco-friendly" product that supposedly replaces the "nasty polluting poison" does not do the job nearly as well and costs twice as much. For instance, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that does the job it's intended to do as well as good old fashioned white lead based paint. Not even close. Well, linear polyurethane may come close, but then again, LPU is several magnitudes more dangerous to work with than lead based paint ever thought of being. Like the man said, "Pick your poison!"

[Areva]

So we sealed the masts up with a mixture of pine tar and boiled linseed oil yesterday. And not a day too soon, because this morning it started pouring again. So far, no leaks....but we're keeping our fingers crossed. By the way, I can't find anything on pine tar being toxic. It smells great, and it's used in many skin care products and on horse hooves. Although some people have pine allergies, pine tar is no more toxic than being in a pine forest and widely available both here and in Europe (where the best stuff comes from).

[Thorne]

Well, almost anything that "preserves" does so by being toxic to things that "rot" (or consume). These are often called "biocides" when they limit rot, fungus, insects and worms from eating our wooden boats...

I use red lead, pine tar, BLO, oil-based enamel paints, etc -- but was just pointing out that pine tar had been difficult to get overseas while it was being tested to conform to new EU chemical legislation.

http://www.woodenskis.com/comments1.htm

7/16/07 - Hi Greg,

Here is something I thought you might find interesting, even though we are not directly affected here in the United States. The August 2007 issue of Wooden Boat Magazine contains an article concerning the European Union banning the use of pine tar as a carcinigen. The ban would have had a significant effect in the Scandiavian countries where pine tar is used extensively as a protective coating for traditional wooden boats and for older buildings. The article did not mention skis, but that may just have been beyond the scope of the writer's interest. The ruling was protested by the Scandiavian countries and, after review, the EU temporarily lifted the ban until 2010.

It was an interesting article and talked about the economic history of pine tar as well as its chemical composition and use. Just thought you might like to check it out...........Steve, Albany, NY


Editor's Note: Check out the following links for more information.

http://www.woodenboat.com/wbmag/index.html (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/../wbmag/index.html)

http://www.european-maritime-heritage.org/EMHsite/Projects/pinetar.htm

http://60north.asiakaslehti.fi/article?section=02&journal=1723185&article=2043235


http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eus-tar-police-is-coming-to-get-you/

..."Traditional pine tar must still to undergo registration and authorization by the new chemical legislation (REACH) and it is not sure if small traditional tar makers can ever carry out this expensive procedure. Probably more toxic coal tar will pass this system because it is backed by big industry in central Europe."

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:ebayiZ8CDdEJ:www.e-m-h.eu/docs/EMH%2520Secr%2520Report%25202004.pdf+%22pine+tar%2 2+banned+in+UK&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a
. The year round
The highlight of this year was our triennial congress in Karlskrona during the Baltic Sail
event. Our host the Swedish Maritime Museums offered a well organised congress and social
program. Topics as how to make the floating heritage available to the public, threats to
traditional maritime skills and the merits and hazards of building replicas were discussed.
Some national registers were compared and there was a debate about the announced ban of pine tar. "

[Ed Harrow]

MSDS for Pine Tar (http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Pine_tar-9926574)

[Areva]

Wow, whoever would have thought that pine trees have arsenic in them? I've never heard of oldtime sailors dropping dead of arsenic poisoning from their rigging however so it must not be very much. Someone else told me that mahogany contains syanide, is this true? Still if I must pick my poison, I'd rather go with an old fashioned one than one that starts with poly and ends with urethane. My father worked with chemical solvents his whole life as a screen printer and eventually developed a horrible neurological disease. What are the signs of arsenic and syanide poisoning though just to be on the safe side?

[Jay Greer]

I was closely associated with Hughe Angleman in that I was repsonsible for the delivery, rigging and prep of the Bounty and Sea Witch Ketches that were built in the Orient. I am sorry to hear that you treated your spars with pine tar. Varnish really would have been a better choice. Pine tar gets sticky on hot days stains sails, decks, hands and clothing. While it is admirable to think of using old methods and technology for boat maintenance and, working green is admirable, there are many proven products and techniques that are superior in many cases. While I am all in favor of green approaches to every day life.
The wooden boats we maintain are so few as to not make any significant impact on the invironment. In my opinion, one day of flights at an international air port pumps more pollution into the environment than all of us produce in a year with our boats.
Jay

[Thad]

Personally I think the most user friendly and hypoalergenic material and methods are the most traditional. If you prefer clorinated hydrocarbons to red lead, I think you have a problem unless you plan to eat the lead. It is easy to spread paint and get little or none on you, and easy to clean it off. Wood dust can be a problem but is not difficult to contain, while fumes and highly reactive activators are insidious. Traditional construction restoration (as noted above) generally involves replacing parts as originally installed. There are times when the original construction failed and can be improved by other traditional methods.

[Areva]

Just to clarify we only used pine tar on the base of the mast where it meets the deck in order to prevent further leaking below deck. We are using le tonkinois varnish on the rest of the masts and all the booms. So far it looks great. You can check out some pictures using this url:
http://s445.photobucket.com/albums/qq174/blackcougar3/

[Mrleft8]

Why do you ask for advice, if you intend to do what you heard from someone else anyway? You waste the time of experienced boat builders, and others who have first hand knowledge, and are willing to respond to your empty questions.
Cyanide is spelled with a "C".