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ishmael
11-09-2008, 12:00 AM
OK, let's get down to brass tacks, once again. I want to be left alone re guns. I think it's good to know what is going on with them, but on another thread I got called a maniac because a shotgun I inherited was interesting. To be fair, I did say that in certain rare circumstances it's justified taking a gun to a fellow human. Not Wild West, only if a person was threatening the life or basic dignity of myself, a loved one, or a fellow innocent.

I'm trying to define the debate, help me out. It's going to be a major debate in the domestic agenda these next four years. Let's have a look at it. Is it justified, in self-defense?

Just curious how it adds up.

Vince Brennan
11-09-2008, 12:03 AM
Jack, why don't you just get a tattoo reading, "Kick The Troll" on your hindquarters?

If you want to be "left alone" about guns, STFU.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 12:07 AM
So you don't have an answer to the question, Vince? You want me to go away, label me a troll.

I think it's going to be one of the basic debates in the next four years. If I were smart I probably would just STFU. But I'm not smart.

Vince Brennan
11-09-2008, 12:12 AM
No, just a passive-aggressive troll.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-09-2008, 12:12 AM
I just bought a 22 cal. pistol.
For target shooting with my brother.

He's urgeing me to get my CC permit.

I might.

There ya happy Jack?

ishmael
11-09-2008, 12:15 AM
Asking a basic question about the nature of firearms in the society, expressing my opinion, is passive aggressive?

How do you figure that?

You learned that response somewhere, maybe an after hours psychology class or a self-help book.

The Bigfella
11-09-2008, 12:20 AM
Its OK Jack we love you.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 12:23 AM
Never condescend to me without good reason, Ian, or I will write you off. That last post is closing in on it.

seanz
11-09-2008, 12:25 AM
I'm trying to define the debate, help me out. It's going to be a major debate in the domestic agenda these next four years. Let's have a look at it. Is it justified, in self-defense?



I've often debated in self defence.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-09-2008, 12:25 AM
The gun I bought kinda looks like this but it's older with a wooden grip.

http://www.besttoysngames.com/images/-22-CALIBER-FAST-DRAW-BLUED-16919.jpg

Cowboy gun eh?

seanz
11-09-2008, 12:28 AM
The wooden grip will go nice with your chaps.
:p:D

LeeG
11-09-2008, 12:30 AM
I'm over it

Cuyahoga Chuck
11-09-2008, 12:31 AM
It works like this. If you kill anyone, even justifiably, it will cause you a fair amount of trouble and you are not going to like being investigated and questioned ad nauseum.
There is always the distinct possibility that you cannot convince the law you were in a life and death situation and then you are,really, in trouble.
Lastly, for questions of this severity you need advice from someone with some legal smarts not from the likes of us no-names on the internet. Even if someone here is a lawyer, unless he is familiar with the law in your state he could be giving you flawed advice.
The best non-legal advice I can give you is, if you think your life is in dangered where you live, MOVE. It will be cheaper in the long run.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-09-2008, 12:37 AM
The wooden grip will go nice with your chaps.
:p:D




Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not after me.

Larks
11-09-2008, 12:41 AM
Seems like a fair topic for a discussion Ish'. The Oz Gov't took the hard line and essentially banned guns here, it is taboo to discuss them for fear of being labled a redneck, though you can still own them if you are an active member in a gun club.

Personally it doesn't bother me in the slightest that they are banned but I don't approve of the Australian Gov'ts patronising approach of trying to wrap us all in cotton wool.

It doesn't seem to have changed much here in terms of gun control and safety, the good guys no longer have guns, the bad guys can get them whenever they want.

I'm no longer into hunting but would still find some pleasure in the challenge of target shooting, probably similar to that of golf or any other sport (now that I can't play footy any more). I used to be pretty handy and have been thinking of joining a club to take it up again. Work on the skills, practice, try try and try again and when you get it right there is something in the satisfaction of achievement. (And it's not so tough on the knees)

The Bigfella
11-09-2008, 12:42 AM
Never condescend to me without good reason, Ian, or I will write you off. That last post is closing in on it.

Jack - what sort of stupid thread is this?



I want to be left alone re guns


Duhh - so maybe I'll post a thread about it? Grow up Jack.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 12:47 AM
"Lastly, for questions of this severity you need advice from someone with some legal smarts not from the likes of us no-names on the internet. Even if someone here is a lawyer, unless he is familiar with the law in your state he could be giving you flawed advice.
The best non-legal advice I can give you is, if you think your life is in dangered where you live, MOVE. It will be cheaper in the long run."

To be a bit clearer, I feel no threat here, this is a peaceful place. But I think it's a person's basic right to defend their life and liberty with a gun if it comes to that.

The Left, which has come to strikingly idealogical power, wants to take that away. Make no mistake, this is going to be an issue. Where do you stand?

ishmael
11-09-2008, 01:03 AM
"Jack - what sort of stupid thread is this?"

You've already been emasculated, Ian. So you tell me.

seanz
11-09-2008, 01:13 AM
You've already been emasculated, Ian. So you tell me.

:rolleyes:

Oh dear. Not so much a Fruedian slip as an evening gown, gloves, ruby slippers and tiara.

:D

Yeadon
11-09-2008, 01:38 AM
guns. it's about guns. and chaps. it's about guns and chaps.

The Bigfella
11-09-2008, 01:40 AM
"Jack - what sort of stupid thread is this?"

You've already been emasculated, Ian. So you tell me.

How so Jack? Because I live in a society where I don't fear being shot at my front door or driving down the freeway?

By enjoying my shooting? I own four rifles - from air rifle through .308 and have excellent sporting facilities nearby where I can use them and plenty of hunting opportunities too.

Just where is my emasculation? Is it because I don't spend all my time worrying about guns or intruders either?

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-09-2008, 02:04 AM
I'm kinda like Hoss Cartwright, I'd rather eat than shoot people.



http://www.annotatedmst.com/episodes/creepingterror/bonanza_hoss.jpg

pila
11-09-2008, 02:16 AM
Guns; Actually a decent subject. Everything about guns doesn't have to be about shooting/killing someone. Regardless of all the hassle about guns, they are a hobby for lots of folks.

The bad guys will always have guns no matter what the govt , the bunny huggers and goodie-two-shoes types say about it or try to regulate.

Keeping a gun around the house for self defense may not be a good idea unless you really know what the hell you are doing. Many are shot every year with their own weapons.

Not only that, killing someone even in so-called self defense is going to be with you forever.

Yeadon
11-09-2008, 02:31 AM
Used to own a 12 gauge. We'd go up into the cascades and fling clay pigeons out over the cliffs. Shooting at them was great fun. Took quite a bit of skill to measure their speed, lead it, and fire. Very satisfying to hit one, and watch it explode into 50 little orange fragments.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 05:40 AM
got guns, none loaded, stored the same way one would store fishing gear

paladin
11-09-2008, 06:03 AM
Got lotsa guns, a couple/three loaded...thinking about shooting Jack.....

Tylerdurden
11-09-2008, 06:16 AM
Got lotsa guns, a couple/three loaded...thinking about shooting Jack.....

:D:eek::D

Tylerdurden
11-09-2008, 06:30 AM
There is no debate Jack. Owning a firearm is exercising your rights.

Responsible gun owners use them for sport or defense and both a legitimate reasons. Criminals use them for criminal acts. Simple.
Having spent some time in country's where civilians were not afforded the right and seeing what happens to those civilians when governments decide to suppress the populations I can give you no better argument. One has to witness such things to understand the need for the common man to be armed.
The whacko left gun grabbers have never experienced it so its understandable.
The two biggest we contend with never offered up a day of service and have never been in a war torn country. The speak from their asses. Don't worry about what they call you as when the governments love comes to visit upon them they will lay down or run for someone they trashed for their views. Dependent on others till the end.

Chris Coose
11-09-2008, 06:58 AM
I think ........... But I'm not smart.

Big debate?
Maybe at the bean supper in Eddington Bend some night.
Until then, keep a strong grasp on it, in anticipation of the radically secret legislation that will allow them to come and take you and it away.

Tylerdurden
11-09-2008, 08:18 AM
Like I said...:rolleyes:

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 09:12 AM
I'm having a nice cheese omelet and bacon.....maybe some biscuits for breakfast this morning.:) What are you having, Jack, another Bloody Mary?

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 09:16 AM
bacon sandwich here Mike...maybe with cheese

Paul Pless
11-09-2008, 09:22 AM
I'm having a nice cheese omelet and bacon.....maybe some biscuits for breakfast this morning.:) I'm craving hasbrowns with my eggs this morning! Fixin to be done feeding the dogs then its my turn.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 09:28 AM
sounds good but I ain't got no spuds

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 09:39 AM
I ain't got no spuds either.:( The hash browns sounds tasty.

Bob Adams
11-09-2008, 10:01 AM
It works like this. If you kill anyone, even justifiably, it will cause you a fair amount of trouble and you are not going to like being investigated and questioned ad nauseum.


I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. There may very well be some major changes in the future, I believe Obama was quiet
on his gun views (aside from the no American should have a semi auto remark) because had they become known NO gun ower would have voted for him. I intend to make a few purchases while I still can.

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 10:07 AM
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. There may very well be some major changes in the future, I believe Obama was quiet
on his gun views (aside from the no American should have a semi auto remark) because had they become known NO gun ower would have voted for him. I intend to make a few purchases while I still can.

They'll takes mah gunz only when they prized em from my cold daid fangers!:mad:

Tylerdurden
11-09-2008, 11:38 AM
I'm craving hasbrowns with my eggs this morning! Fixin to be done feeding the dogs then its my turn.

Eggs, corned beef hash and real butter. Screw the doctors.;)

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-09-2008, 11:46 AM
Jack, why don't you just get a tattoo reading, "Kick The Troll" on your hindquarters?

If you want to be "left alone" about guns, STFU.

spew.....:D:D:D:D

Bob Adams
11-09-2008, 12:25 PM
They'll takes mah gunz only when they prized em from my cold daid fangers!:mad:

Does everyone in Memphis speak like that, or is it just you?

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 12:28 PM
all the natives to but there's a lot of yankees fleeing the cold north that are changing things pretty fast...they want to flee the cold but want to bring what passes for culture with them and impose it on those they view as the local aboriginals

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-09-2008, 02:43 PM
True Yankee's don't flee the North when it gets cold.
The Reverend is originally from West Virginia, He thinks ya'll talk funny Bob.

Paul Pless
11-09-2008, 02:50 PM
all the natives to but there's a lot of yankees fleeing the cold north that are changing things pretty fast...they want to flee the cold but want to bring what passes for culture with them and impose it on those they view as the local aboriginalsSeems to me if one wants to flee the cold they need to go a lot further south than Arkansas!

ishmael
11-09-2008, 03:07 PM
Do you see how the debate is shaping up? People on the Left simply don't want to hear about it. Most have no experience with guns, they think they are evil, and they just want them to go away. So they ridicule, cast aspersions, couch gun owners as nuts, and then talk about their breakfasts.

I'm telling you, this is going to be a major legislative issue in the next four years. Where do you stand?

P.S. There's a favorite scene in the film, Casablanca. Major Strasser is grilling the local cafe owner, Rick. Not hard, it's not formal: "How will you feel, Rick, when we are in New York? When you get there, ask me. But there are parts of New York I advise you don't invade."

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 03:15 PM
Seems to me if one wants to flee the cold they need to go a lot further south than Arkansas!



it the past, land was cheap and blue collar workers could retire here like they were wealthy...I call them blue collar aristocrats...they are very arrogant after they assume the mantal of well to do...

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-09-2008, 03:37 PM
Guns are a big responsability.
I respect those who don't want to assume that responsability and l tip my hat to those that do.

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 04:32 PM
Do you see how the debate is shaping up? People on the Left simply don't want to hear about it. Most have no experience with guns, they think they are evil, and they just want them to go away. So they ridicule, cast aspersions, couch gun owners as nuts, and then talk about their breakfasts.

I'm telling you, this is going to be a major legislative issue in the next four years. Where do you stand?

P.S. There's a favorite scene in the film, Casablanca. Major Strasser is grilling the local cafe owner, Rick. Not hard, it's not formal: "How will you feel, Rick, when we are in New York? When you get there, ask me. But there are parts of New York I advise you don't invade."

I'm cooking a nice pot of lentil soup tonight. A few lentils, a little ham. some celery and onion. I find it better than sex.:)

I'm making some of my world famous iron skillet corn bread to go with it. YUM!!!

What would Jung think?

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 05:00 PM
Ish, what you asked was:

Is it justified, in self-defense?
Let's assume that "it" is what you refer to as "in certain rare circumstances it's justified taking a gun to a fellow human".
Could you please help the discussion and define what, to you, those "certain rare circumstances" are? And, perhaps, let us know what, in your opinion, they are not?.
You might get more interesting responses if you prime the pump by giving people the scope of your beliefs, so that they have something to discuss which corresponds to your thoughts.

paladin
11-09-2008, 05:19 PM
Damn...I knowed if'n I hung onto these guns long enough they'd be worth a lot more munny....9mm carbines.....22's.....and ammo will sell by the round, not box....
I just peeled a couple of taters and am slicing them up on the cheese grater.....a little onyon in some bacon grease and a couple of aigs over easy and a fresh cuppa coffee sounds like a darn good dinner.....

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 05:25 PM
Damn...I knowed if'n I hung onto these guns long enough they'd be worth a lot more munny....9mm carbines.....22's.....and ammo will sell by the round, not box....
I just peeled a couple of taters and am slicing them up on the cheese grater.....a little onyon in some bacon grease and a couple of aigs over easy and a fresh cuppa coffee sounds like a darn good dinner.....

ammo is sold by the round in Brasil

ishmael
11-09-2008, 05:33 PM
Duke,

I'm getting blue in the face. If a person has evil intent, I mean really evil intent not just stealing or what have you, against you, or a loved one, or an innocent bystander, you have the right to defend. A firearm is better than a knife or other weapon in most cases.

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 05:40 PM
Lentils is a nice Liberal minded dish. We love em.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 05:45 PM
Okay Jack...you are making this WAY too complicated

a defender will never be able to have the luxury of working out this kind of tortured logic...it will happen quickly and to think one can make a decision after the ball has started rolling is ludicrous...

I figured that out long ago and I still don't keep loaded guns. They are not my first line of defence...if they were, they would be loaded...I expect to play it by ear, keep my knees bent slightly (figuratively speaking) and aim (my defensive thoughts) at the hardest thing for the bad guy to move quickly...his belt buckle. All that and no more...you steps up and you takes your chances...that's life and there are no guarantees at all...if I don't make it then that the way it was supposed to happen...I'll go down fighting but that is as far as I can project such a blind scenario.

Jack, you cannot plan your way out of very many scenarios at all…too many variables…just keep your brain plugged in and accept that you ain’t gonna live forever anyway…

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 06:05 PM
"a defender will never be able to have the luxury of working out this kind of tortured logic...it will happen quickly and to think one can make a decision after the ball has started rolling is ludicrous..."

Especially if one is trying to awake from an alcoholic stuper.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 06:08 PM
"a defender will never be able to have the luxury of working out this kind of tortured logic...it will happen quickly and to think one can make a decision after the ball has started rolling is ludicrous..."

Especially if one is trying to awake from an alcoholic stuper.

it wouldn't hurt you to be a little kinder Mike...just every once in a while

ishmael
11-09-2008, 06:09 PM
All this talk has me thinking I should keep that shotgun in battery.;)

If someone armed broke in here while I was asleep, so long as they were just after things I'd say, "Go ahead, they don't mean anything to me." I'd also say, "Good luck, there ain't much here worth stealing." But some issues develop otherwise, and if they were threatening I'd do my best to get to a gun and defend me and my loved ones, even against odds.

I don't think on this much because as I said I live in a peaceful place and I don't have much worth stealing. But that's how I look on it.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 06:12 PM
We must excuse Mike. He sees everything through his angry, "alcoholic", lens.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 06:13 PM
okay now...Mike's a good man so take it easy

If you want me to gripe at him for throwing dirt clods at you then don't throw any at him

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 06:19 PM
Duke,
I'm getting blue in the face.
Then inhale. Honest - I'm not trying to enrage you or anything else. My comments were specifically meant to help the discussion along - your discussion, or at least what I thought was your discussion.
It took until post #51/56 for you to give some scope to your question - to the discussion. All I was suggesting was that perhaps you might do that sooner - if so, the discussion might be more to your liking.
Just a note. Once you say:

I don't think on this much
People are going to, correctly, jump on this. You have been publicly thinking about this for at least the past month, here. Not the first time, everyone knows, that you've talked about having a shotgun "in battery"...

ishmael
11-09-2008, 06:32 PM
Duke,

"Blue in the face" is a figure of speech, which means you've been talking too much about it, not holding your breath.

Phillip,

I've offered my hand to this character "Memphis Mike." Over and over. All I've gotten back is harassment. I can't say this about many people here, but he's made me not like him. I'd be willing to reconcile, but he prefers being angry. I don't like angry people.

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 06:34 PM
"All this talk has me thinking I should keep that shotgun in battery."

Don't get your toe hung in it.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 06:37 PM
See what I mean, Phillip? He's said this twice now. What to confer? He wishes me dead by suicide, and jokes about it. How to reconcile with such a vile person?

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 06:42 PM
The lentils are done. I think I'll have a bowl. Cornbread made with buttermilk. Life is good.:)

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 06:47 PM
(I tried)

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 06:54 PM
(I tried)

So did I.

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 06:55 PM
Duke,
"Blue in the face" is a figure of speech, which means you've been talking too much about it, not holding your breath.
That is why I suggested that you 'inhale' instead of 'exhale'.
I understand figures of speech, thanks.

What to confer?
Do you mean 'infer'? "Confer" means "to consult together", etc. Or is that what you meant?

ishmael
11-09-2008, 07:04 PM
Duke,

"Do you mean 'infer'? "Confer" means "to consult together", etc. Or is that what you meant?"

A common meaning is to give, not consult together.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 07:12 PM
"So did I."

Bull****e. You, Mr. Mike, have wished me dead, twice now by suicide. Is that your idea of trying to reconcile with someone you don't understand?

pila
11-09-2008, 07:25 PM
It may sound easy to talk about killing/shooting someone, even in desperate self defense, but just hope you never have to. It's not a place you want to go. But taking all the guns away sure wont solve anything either.

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 07:25 PM
He's said this twice now. What to confer?
Asked about 'confer:

A common meaning is to give, not consult together.
Ish - it's OK if what you really meant was "infer". Nobody really thinks that you meant "What to give?".
And I don't think that Mike has wished you dead - and, frankly, I don't believe that you think that either.
He has joked (perhaps rudely but not, in my opinion, without merit) about your proud proclivity to introspection along with your current fixation on having loaded shotguns on hand. Bad joke? Maybe.
Wishing you dead? Uhm... that's kind of a stretch.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 07:36 PM
www.impactguns.com/store/SS-42734.html you can get these fine single action revolvers chambered to match your favorite saddle gun, Pilgrim.

If ya kain't carry it in your waist-band then it's not a hand gun...just a very poorly designed rifle

ishmael
11-09-2008, 07:37 PM
No Duke, confer means what it means. Mike's references to a toe in the trigger guard are direct references to my literary desires, and it is a death wish for me.

Writers have to take the symbols in. You don't say that kind of stuff unless you are serious or idiot. You can if you are clearly joking, but that's a difficult thing to joke about.

paladin
11-09-2008, 07:38 PM
Jack....ya dunno wanna shoot no one.....you would not believe the amount of paperwork that it would entail....even if they didn't whack you with some criminal charge....and then there's the hearing....and waiting.....and conferring with your attorney......but one piece of advice....
Don't be Roy Rogers and shoot to wound.....there's less problems just killing the s.o.b. outright...just make sure the body falls inside your doorway, and some sorta weapon is found next to him/her...like a rusty switchblade or another gun.

stevebaby
11-09-2008, 07:39 PM
OK, let's get down to brass tacks, once again. I want to be left alone re guns. I think it's good to know what is going on with them, but on another thread I got called a maniac because a shotgun I inherited was interesting. To be fair, I did say that in certain rare circumstances it's justified taking a gun to a fellow human. Not Wild West, only if a person was threatening the life or basic dignity of myself, a loved one, or a fellow innocent.

I'm trying to define the debate, help me out. It's going to be a major debate in the domestic agenda these next four years. Let's have a look at it. Is it justified, in self-defense?

Just curious how it adds up.If you believe that it's ok to kill someone with a gun over "basic dignity" then you don't have any and never did.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 07:40 PM
If you believe that it's ok to kill someone with a gun over "basic dignity" then you don't have any and never did.


I don't think he said that at all

stevebaby
11-09-2008, 07:42 PM
OK, let's get down to brass tacks, once again. I want to be left alone re guns. I think it's good to know what is going on with them, but on another thread I got called a maniac because a shotgun I inherited was interesting. To be fair, I did say that in certain rare circumstances it's justified taking a gun to a fellow human. Not Wild West, only if a person was threatening the life or basic dignity of myself, a loved one, or a fellow innocent.

I'm trying to define the debate, help me out. It's going to be a major debate in the domestic agenda these next four years. Let's have a look at it. Is it justified, in self-defense?

Just curious how it adds up.Yes...he did.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 07:49 PM
I'm a bit old fashioned. "Basic dignity" was code for if the intruder was trying to rape, or was similarly hurtful.

Why this isn't basic is beyond me.

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 07:49 PM
No Duke, confer means what it means.
All words "mean what they mean". That is why people use them and why communication works. But "What to give?" doesn't mean anything, Jack, unless you are talking about Christmas or Birthday's or some other event.
You are not so it is gibberish.


Mike's references to a toe in the trigger guard are direct references to my literary desires, and it is a death wish for me.
Oh - THIS is new. Direct reference to your literary desires? Where does that come from? What literary desires? Where were those brought into play?
You are not Ernest Hemingway. You will never be Ernest Hemingway. Having suicidal thoughts and owning a shotgun will not make you Ernest Hemingway.
If you can't accept being who you are, then you need to work on that, not on pointing at other people and blaming them.

paladin
11-09-2008, 07:50 PM
I like to think that I'm a pretty liberal guy when it comes to firearms.....then there's times when I truly believe that there's some folks that shouldn't have access to firearms at all....especially when someone starts conversations about whether they're going to get away with something or not then start mental masterbation of what would be the circumstances pro's and con's...and I'm starting to get that feeling...

LeeG
11-09-2008, 07:51 PM
oh hell, I'd kick Jack in the butt if he talked this way in person and I think he'd like it in person as he solicits it here.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 07:56 PM
"especially when someone starts conversations about whether they're going to get away with something or not"

When have I ever said that?

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 07:59 PM
I'm a pretty liberal guy when it comes to firearms.....then there's times when I truly believe that there's some folks that shouldn't have access to firearms at all
I feel the same way about the use of the English Language:D

Memphis Mike
11-09-2008, 08:00 PM
"especially when someone starts conversations about whether they're going to get away with something or not"

When have I ever said that?

Today.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 08:02 PM
I can't see the point of this argument...I'm goin to bed and read a book

ishmael
11-09-2008, 08:03 PM
Where, point it out to me. You might infer things, but what did I confer that speaks that way?

The Bigfella
11-09-2008, 08:13 PM
So Jack - a hypothetical. You've got your shotgun "in battery". Lets assume you get lucky and she comes home with you - along with her toddler. You hit the sack - the toddler finds the shottie and pulls the trigger.

What's the legal situation then?

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 08:14 PM
You might infer things, but what did I confer that speaks that way
Now we're getting someplace....:D

Bruce Taylor
11-09-2008, 08:22 PM
oh hell, I'd kick Jack in the butt if he talked this way in person and I think he'd like it in person as he solicits it here.

I once saw somebody kick a stranger in the butt.

It was on the Montreal metro. A scrawny old man, drunk and deranged, was talking back to his hallucinations, irritating the people around him. Eventually, he turned toward a black woman seated a few feet away and babbled out something that included the word "nigger."

A tall, young man in a business suit was standing behind him, reading the paper. Without setting down his briefcase, he gave the old wretch a tremendous kick in the arse, then went back to his reading.

The old man kept his mouth shut for the rest of the ride, standing slumped in the aisles with tears running down his face.

There's nothing redemptive in the story, I'm afraid. Everyone walked away smaller and sadder.

Paul Pless
11-09-2008, 08:25 PM
that's nice bruce

ishmael
11-09-2008, 08:25 PM
So Jack - a hypothetical. You've got your shotgun "in battery". Lets assume you get lucky and she comes home with you - along with her toddler. You hit the sack - the toddler finds the shottie and pulls the trigger.

What's the legal situation then?

That's an easy one. The person who left the shotgun in reach of a toddler is the responsible one.

Look, let's face it. The vast majority of gun violence is with drug dealers dealing illegal drugs.

Beowolf
11-09-2008, 08:33 PM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/internet_argument.png

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 08:34 PM
The vast majority of gun violence is with drug dealers dealing illegal drugs.
Uhmmm.....

Bureau of Justice: Most recent figures for "Firearm deaths by intent"
Year Total Accidental Suicide Homicide Unknown
2001 29,573 802 16,869 11,671 231

Unless drug dealers are killing themselves, then that is incorrect.
Thought you'd want to know.

The Bigfella
11-09-2008, 08:45 PM
Wow - so your right to bear arms costs 30,000 people their lives every year. Is it worth it?

Ian McColgin
11-09-2008, 08:47 PM
Never let facts stand in the way of sweeping wishful phantacy.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 08:48 PM
Um, Duke,

Unless I've completely lost it, those statistix are unreadable.

The Bigfella
11-09-2008, 08:53 PM
You've completely lost it then.

Year 2001

Total 29,573
Accidental 802
Suicide 16,869
Homicide 11,671
Unknown 231

ishmael
11-09-2008, 09:00 PM
See now, I can read that. It lays it out. But I can't read:2001 29,573 802 16,869 11,671 231 Sorry, a little issue with what is what. That's a string of numbers.

seanz
11-09-2008, 09:00 PM
Wow - so your right to bear arms costs 30,000 people their lives every year. Is it worth it?

The right to drive cars costs 42,000 in the same year.


2001 Total Firearm deaths 29,573
Accidental gun deaths 802
Suicide 16,869
Homicide 11,671
Undetermined 231

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm

The USA is a big country though......

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 09:04 PM
Wow - so your right to bear arms costs 30,000 people their lives every year. Is it worth it?
Well... if you knew some of those people....:D
Jokes aside - it's no joke. Pretty interesting that, as a country, we are still willing to accept that level.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 09:07 PM
Atrocious numbers. But I don't see anything refuting that it's directly related to the illegal trade in drugs.

Larks
11-09-2008, 09:13 PM
OK, let's get down to brass tacks, once again. I want to be left alone re guns. I think it's good to know what is going on with them, but on another thread I got called a maniac because a shotgun I inherited was interesting. To be fair, I did say that in certain rare circumstances it's justified taking a gun to a fellow human. Not Wild West, only if a person was threatening the life or basic dignity of myself, a loved one, or a fellow innocent.

I'm trying to define the debate, help me out. It's going to be a major debate in the domestic agenda these next four years. Let's have a look at it. Is it justified, in self-defense?

Just curious how it adds up.

I find it interesting how people on this forum seem to selectively interpret a post. In the case of this one here's how I read it:

"I want to be left alone re guns." - I read "I don't want the US Gov't to interfere with my current situation re guns"

"in certain rare circumstances it's justified taking a gun to a fellow human. Not Wild West, only if a person was threatening the life or basic dignity of myself, a loved one, or a fellow innocent" - I read "I'd shoot someone who threatened my family with death, injury or rape"

"Is it justified, in self-defense" I read - "I don't really think my opinion is sacrosanct or necessarily correct, what does everyone else think?"

So back to his original question, is there any circumstance were it is justifiable to shoot another person?

IMHO, if someone threatened my wife or family in any way I'd use whatever I had at hand to deal with that person. Preferably NOT a gun, but if that was all I had.......;)

paladin
11-09-2008, 09:21 PM
Jack...if you have firearms that you want to get rid of, try E-Bang.....you'll get better prices for the stuff. I just sold a high standard trophy citation pistol there for $1150.00 with one magazine...so as soon as I take some more piks I'll unload some more excess......

Uncle Duke
11-09-2008, 09:22 PM
Ish:

The vast majority of gun violence is with drug dealers dealing illegal drugs
Facts: 16,000+ deaths by gun are suicide. Out of 29,000. That, alone, is more than 50%. Not counting the 'accidents', homicides for other reasons, etc.
Ish:

I don't see anything refuting that it's directly related to the illegal trade in drugs.

I think that you could accurately stop before the word "refuting".

Keith Wilson
11-09-2008, 09:25 PM
It's going to be a major debate in the domestic agenda these next four years. No, it's not. The debate is winding down, because, essentially, those who want to have guns won. There's little desire or energy on the left to fight this one; it just gets people riled up and doesn't do any good. The Supreme Court decided that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own a gun for self-defense, so that part of the debate's over; all that remains is quibbling about the degree of permissible restriction.. Obama didn't say much about it because he doesn't care much about it, and will be content to leave well enough alone; he has WAY bigger things to deal with. The only people who make this an issue now are on the right. Shrieking, "They're gonna take your guns away!!" will work for one more election cycle, maybe two, before folks will realize that they aren't.

ishmael
11-09-2008, 09:43 PM
People who chose to kill themselves are a different matter. I'm talking direct, I'm talking killing you gun deaths when I speak to the stats. If it's cut that way I can live with it. I'll do my best.

Um, I don't want anymore killing. That blue jay broke my heart.

P.S. "The debate is winding down, because, essentially, those who want to have guns won." Very naive. This President and this Congress are going to do everything in their power to further restrict gun ownership. Read their policy statements.

LeeG
11-09-2008, 10:17 PM
Jack, yr an idiot, "this president" and "this Congress" have more important things to do than stroke the guns and religions folks

Robert L E
11-09-2008, 10:59 PM
Suicides can be accomplished in a myriad of ways. Banning guns sometime removes an indicator from a family. i.e. Uncle "Joe" is feeling down and asks to borrow your .22 . This concerns you because he has never shown interest in shooting before. You have a possible opportunity prevent his death.

Uncle Joe does not have to ask you for permission to use a bridge, or drugs, buy a rope, or gas himself in the garage.

Suicide method is all that will change if guns are ever banned. Over 1,200 people have used the Golden Gate Bridge as their means of death. That is just one bridge.

The thing about guns is that you are safer if your honest neighbors are armed. (It is less clear if the homeowner is safer being armed but he is taking an assumed risk.) This is because violent criminals fear the armed citizen more than they do the police. This is also why violent crime tends to go up when more gun restrictions are placed on honest citizens.

Our high crime rate is caused mostly because we bend over backwards to be fair and not convict the innocent. Most low crime countries do not have people with "long criminal records".

It is easy to take away someone else's rights; even more so if they are on the right. Right? The "fairness" doctrine, after all, is taylored to take the first ammendment from conservatives.

Bob

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 11:02 PM
You've completely lost it then.

Year 2001

Total 29,573
Accidental 802
Suicide 16,869
Homicide 11,671
Unknown 231

looks to me like adding accidental and unknown is pretty small...many more drownings

as to the others...suicide...gonna do it anyway, homicade...gonna do it anyway

your 30,000 is a lie at best, manipulation of the uneducated for political reasons at the worst

The Bigfella
11-09-2008, 11:11 PM
your 30,000 is a lie at best

basic maths mate - rounded to the nearest 1,000.

Suicide and homicide are not going to happen anyhow - they are both mostly crimes of passion - and opportunity (read availability of guns) features highly - yes, some possibly most will still occur - but definitely not all.

Jack - we did that drugs discussion before - you lost the point then, and I can't be bothered going through it with you every couple of months. If you want to do some basic searching you will find out (again). The fact you couldn't be bothered to read those stats tends to say to me that you won't.

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 11:14 PM
"Suicide and homicide are not going to happen anyhow - they are both mostly crimes of passion - and opportunity (read availability of guns) features highly - yes, some possibly most will still occur - but definitely not all."

okay...lets see your adjusted figures...

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 11:15 PM
BTW...I submit that suicide is the absence of passion

consider what else is available besides guns...

The Bigfella
11-09-2008, 11:55 PM
"Suicide and homicide are not going to happen anyhow - they are both mostly crimes of passion - and opportunity (read availability of guns) features highly - yes, some possibly most will still occur - but definitely not all."

okay...lets see your adjusted figures...

Been there, done that, numerous times. Feel free to use the search function.

Phillip Allen
11-10-2008, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Allen
"Suicide and homicide are not going to happen anyhow - they are both mostly crimes of passion - and opportunity (read availability of guns) features highly - yes, some possibly most will still occur - but definitely not all."

okay...lets see your adjusted figures




Been there, done that, numerous times. Feel free to use the search function.

you sound like ill-jay

Memphis Mike
11-10-2008, 12:53 PM
No, it's not. The debate is winding down, because, essentially, those who want to have guns won. There's little desire or energy on the left to fight this one; it just gets people riled up and doesn't do any good. The Supreme Court decided that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own a gun for self-defense, so that part of the debate's over; all that remains is quibbling about the degree of permissible restriction.. Obama didn't say much about it because he doesn't care much about it, and will be content to leave well enough alone; he has WAY bigger things to deal with. The only people who make this an issue now are on the right. Shrieking, "They're gonna take your guns away!!" will work for one more election cycle, maybe two, before folks will realize that they aren't.

My whole point exactly. It's a non issue.

and Heinlen, no I don't wish you any harm.

Keith Wilson
11-10-2008, 01:12 PM
This President and this Congress are going to do everything in their power to further restrict gun ownership. Read their policy statements.No, they're not. The right wing have claimed that they will, and you believed them. However, it's certainly not a priority for Obama, and not for most of Congress either. Even without the recent Supreme Court decision, there's little popular will in favor, and a lot of popular will against - and the first (sometimes the only) law of Congress is "get re-elected". Jack, you may not realize this, but most folks on the left simply don't care very much about guns. And the new administration will have much bigger problems to deal with.

John of Phoenix
11-10-2008, 02:36 PM
If a person has evil intent, I mean really evil intent not just stealing or what have you, against you, or a loved one, or an innocent bystander, you have the right to defend. A firearm is better than a knife or other weapon in most cases.
Forget guns. Go for explosives.
Nothing says, "I'm gonna get your evil ass for violating my basic dignity" like HE.

Phillip Allen
11-10-2008, 02:41 PM
Forget guns. Go for explosives.
Nothing says, "I'm gonna get your evil ass for violating my basic dignity" like HE.


...you're not being fair John...Jack said that he meant rape...as in "kill to defend against rape"

Mocking is an indication of insincerity

John of Phoenix
11-10-2008, 02:51 PM
Mocking is an indication of insincerity
No kidding?

Uncle Duke
11-10-2008, 02:58 PM
Forget guns. Go for explosives.
Nothing says, "I'm gonna get your evil ass for violating my basic dignity" like HE.


...you're not being fair John...Jack said that he meant rape...as in "kill to defend against rape"

Yeah - I think that HE is overkill. 'Course, I think a gun might be overkill, too. What's wrong with Mace? Or 6 week old hummus that's been left in the sun?

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-10-2008, 05:45 PM
Now that I've got a gun, all I need is a horse.



http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee6/amdscooter/ride-em-cowboy.jpg

The Bigfella
11-10-2008, 05:47 PM
That should get you a six month ban. I was eating peanuts when I opened that....