Dust free sanding

[Matt Middleton]

I finally found somewhere to haulout and paint, and this yard required a vacuum attached to the sander to suck up all the dust. They'll rent a setup to me for $25 a half day, or $40 all day. Considering the price they charge and the fact that I have to do the deck, bottom, and sides, I figger I could've bought my own wet/dry vac and sander by the time I'm done. That way Michelle and I will have something to clean up the spills and messes once we move aboard! (Plus I get new toys...)
So, give me some suggestions on sanders and vacuums.
Thanks
Matt

[Jamie Hascall]

Spend the money and get the Fein Vac. It's around $230 or so but this use is where it really shines. (It's probably what theyed be renting you.) It works best with their random orbit sander but when I paired mine with my 5" Porter-Cable I got great results. A great feature is the built in outlet with sensor that you plug the sander into. Turn on the sander and the vac goes on. It then stays on for an additional 4 seconds after the sander is turned off to clear the dust from the hose. It's quiet too. You won't be sorry.

Jamie

[Buddy Sharpton]

Amen Church! Absolutely worth the money and saves so much time. My old shop vac is at the office now. The Fein is quieter too.

[Matt Middleton]

Thanks guys- I was afraid you would say that. It does look like a great tool, but I might have to be a little cheap on it right now.
I'm assuming your 5" is a disc size- are the disc type sanders better than the rectangular ones? I know some of them rotate as well as orbit (technical term), but do you have any issues with catching an edge and creating "half-moons"?

[Wayne Jeffers]

I don't know if they still make them anymore, but I've had a Genie Jet-Vac for over 20 years and it still keeps going. Bought it for about $50 at a discount store.

I can get HEPA filters to fit it at Lowes. Six or eight years ago, I converted it to a 20-something gallon model by mounting the business end of it onto a steel drum with a removable top and mounting the whole thing on a dolly. After all these years, it still has good airflow plus enough suction power that if the flow gets obstructed, it will "oil-can" :eek: the heavy steel drum (which was originally used to ship 700 pounds of tin pellets to the mill where my father-in-law worked.) I've made or bought attachments to hook it to most of my equipment.

Yeah, it's not the quietest or the fanciest, but it works great. And I'm partly Scottish. ;) I will buy myself a nice new vac if ever this thing dies!

Wayne

[capt jake]

Matt the 5" he is referring to is a round rnadom orbit sander, IMHO it is the best one on the market. The rectangular ones leave little scratches behind. If you a careful, and don't put too much pressure on the edge of the disc, you won't have to worry too much about the 1/2 moons. smile.gif

[Allen Foote]

Don't buy the fein! I sand and paint boat bottoms in the spring....it is a seasonal business. This year from mid March through April I've done 29. I use a Dayton Stainless/steel 10 gallon tank vacume cleaner (a comparible one is sold by Home Depot for $150.) and a $89 Bosch 5" 8 hole hook and loop random orbital sander. Total outlay $240. Add a 25 foot vacume hose and duct tape the sander exhuast to the end of the vacume hose. The vacume has lasted 4 years and I go through 3 sanders a year...average 10-12 boats. The sand paper is available off the shelf at most any hardware store-Lowe's or H.D. or Ace ect. Home Depots price is 20 disc of 60 grit for $10. Paper vacume liners...3 for $10.....and you need these otherwise the vacume exhuast blows a fine colored dust. In comparison the Fein outfits that my competition uses run $700 complete (vacume and sander)and the sand paper is sold only by the tool distributor in Annapolis.....a LONG trip when its 3 in the afternoon and the boat is supposed to be finished by the end of the day. Use your common sense and not your wallet solving this one.

[ 05-02-2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[John of Phoenix]

I like Porter-Cable tools. They have both 5"($150 ) and 6" ($155) "dustless", random orbital, variable speed sander kits. Vac sold separately. That Fein is nice but the best price I could find was about $450, $530 at Amazon.

Try this link to Amazon for more info on the PC's. Click on the "See more pictures" button for, well yea. You can probable find a little better price, but Amazon is usually pretty good.

Porter-Cable 97366 6" Variable Speed Sander Kit with Dust Collection Hood (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/hi/B0000222YG/qid=1020358489/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-2546766-7072932)

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

The Fein is fine if you have money to burn. I agree with Mr. Foote. I use a Rigid that I bought at the Depot figuring to get one season out of it. It s three years old and going strong. It cost me $90.00. I replace and or clean the filters religiously. Some cheap corrugated plastic hose, I use sump pump hose it comes in lengths up tp twenty five feet at any plumbing supply house, and a little duct tape to the Makita orbital and its good to go. A half inch of water in the bottom of the drum keeps the filters clear a little longer when the grit is fine.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by Cedarhill Boatworks:
. . . I use sump pump hose it comes in lengths up tp twenty five feet at any plumbing supply house, . . .And it's a whole lot cheaper! smile.gif

But I tried it once and, well . . . something about the shape of the corrugations or whatever, . . . it was like one big loud whistle when the vac pulled air through it. :eek: Maybe I used the wrong brand of sump pump hose. :rolleyes:

Wayne

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

If you got the stuff with the rounded corrugations fairly large and widely spaced it won't work. Small sqaure corrugations very closely spaced 1 1/2 dia.

[Matt Middleton]

That's more the route I was thinking- spend buying what I would have spent renting but end up owning tools. I'd love to get the high end stuff, but I can't justify it for myself at this point. Maybe later in life when I have a nice shop, I can get a nice vacuum. I won't have much room for extras in 32 feet.
But, then again, that Fein mini-vacuum sure would be nice to have aboard. I know, it doesn't get all the cool points the others do for the auto-on/delay-off feature, but from the numbers it looks like it would be a lot quieter and pull a better vacuum. Anybody have any experience with the little guy?
I'm a bit surprised I haven't got any trash from you guys like, "Now the Fein, that one REALLY sucks!

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by Cedarhill Boatworks:
If you got the stuff with the rounded corrugations fairly large and widely spaced it won't work. Small sqaure corrugations very closely spaced 1 1/2 dia.The "whistle" had round corrugations, closely spaced, IIRC. I remember noticing that difference in shape. I'll look again for one with square corrugations. I've been working with a couple of 6-7-foot hoses spliced end-to-end. Twenty-five feet of vacuum hose will be awesome!

Thanks,

Wayne

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

WHEN YOU BUY THE HOSE CONSIDER THIS, ITS INTENDED USE IS FOR A FAIRLY DENSE SUBSTANCE TO BE PUSHED THROUGH IT, AS OPPOSED TO AIR BEING PULLED THROUGH IT. THE HOSE IS DESIGNED TO RESIST BURSTING FROM THE INSIDE OUT.WHEN USED ON A VACUUM THE TENDENCY IS FOR THE HOSE TO COLLAPSE FROM THE OUTSIDE IN. TAKE THE HOSE, COVER ONE END WITH YOUR HAND AND TRY TO SUCK AIR THROUGH IT. IF IT CONDENSES MUCH AT ALL ITS NOT A GOOD VACUUM HOSE.

[Scott Rosen]

I have the Fein small vaccuum. I love it. It's strong, quiet, light and stable. I use it with a Bosche 5", 8 hole random orbital. The setup works great for me.

[Jamie Hascall]

The main thing you need is a sander with holes in the pad for evacuation of the dust as it arises. The vac you use probably won't make as much difference as long as it has a powerful suction. That said, I've used a lot of vacs and I'll stand by the Fein. The noise of most other vacs is so wearing that I've gotten rid of all my others. It's truly a tough tool too. I found them at Northwest Power tools for a pretty good price. The small one is a nice unit and goes for $144. http://www.northwestpowertools.com/vac/vac.htm

Good Luck,
Jamie

[cdm4]

Another vote for the Porter-Cable and a shop vac. CM

[Matt Middleton]

I might give the mini Fein a try. I found it for $144.90, shipped, at www.ai-supply.com (http://www.ai-supply.com)
I'm not sure what I'll do, but I am sure I'll have to decide soon. I'll let you know how it all turns out.
Matt

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

Sorry guys, I wasn't yelling, I just wasn't paying attention to what my left pinky was doing.

[Hugh Paterson]

Jamie, good pair of Ear defenders?

Shug.

[John of Phoenix]

Sorry guys, I wasn't yelling That's ok, I thought you just had the shop vac on. :D

[Jamie Hascall]

Shug,

After achieving permanent tinnitus from a large shop I worked in, I have all sorts of hearing protection. However, if I can get noise reduction at the source, it's far better and much more relaxing. My hearing damage came while wearing both foam plugs and the best earmuff protectors I could find. The sound is still inside my head nearly 20 years later. (At least I never feel lonely for a little noise. tongue.gif )

Jamie

[Concordia..41]

Fein, Fein, Fein.

I intended to order the small one, but honestly folks, in last year's Jamestown catalog the number for the big one was next to the picture of the small one. So I end up with the big one - 30 lbs of freight to return it - so kept the big orange thing.

Seriously Matt, the sound level alone is worth it. You will end up using it inside someday and the amplification of sound when you're using a power tool in the interior (esp. shop vacs) can cause serious ear damage. These guys aren't kidding. Well, they are a bit, but they're serious too.

Also, I don't know what you or your girlfriend use around the house, but when I got the big orange monster - see Ed's recent status check - there's one sitting by Finbar - I wasn't lugging it down to the boat and wasn't going to trash the expensive bast--- right away either - so kept it here at the house. I pulled it out one day to do something - cleaning the cabinet tops or whatever - the hose is a mile long and it came with all the tools.

Turns out the thing's amazing around the house. Absolutely blows the Hoover away. Even works great on carpet with the carpet attachment. Next time I clean out the laundry room, the Hoover's going to the street.

Fein, Fein, Fein

Now to make Dave understand that we STILL need the Mini Turbo for Sarah :D :D

[Ron Williamson]

Jamie
How did you manage to get tinnitis with all that gear?What kind of dbs were you working in?At present I hear(but don't listen) better than most people I know who work in "quiet"jobs.
R

[GondolaGuy]

The best way to sand the boat with excellent results and absolutely no dust is to wet sand. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but you will be surprised at how quickly it will go, especially if it isn't a lapstreak boat. Not only do you spend virtually no money, but it is excellent excercise. smile.gif Unless the condition of the surface is in really rough shape, you only need to take the gloss out of the paint so that the next coat will stick to it, and so why use a cannon to shoot a mouse. Really, I would give it a try before investing in equipment that you then have to lug around and store.

Hope that is helpful,
Thom Price
Venice, Italy
www.squero.com (http://www.squero.com)

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

If all your going to do is scuff up the existing paint to slap on a new coat, as opposed to dressing the hull, you need only was h the hull with a highly concentrated solution of TSP and water. Get a Brillo synthetic grill scrubbing pad and a good pair of elbow length rubber gloves. The TSP will strip off a layer of bottom paint very quickly. Rinse well, let dry and repaint.

[CptnDon]

The little Fein vac doesn't have the auto start feature. But if its small and quiet I guess you could keep it closer to you while you sand.

[Jamie Hascall]

I was working in a factory that make wooden clocks. At any time there were two large NC router systems, five or more small routers mounted in router tables, various saws, sanders, planers, dust collection, etc. I don't know what the db level was in that place but after a little while of just wearing foam plugs I started to notice the hum. I then went to both muffs and plugs but the damage had started and after a while I could barely sleep at night because of the roar. After I left it subsided but it has never gone away. Luckily hearing tests have shown that there wasn't much damage to my acuity.

This all leads back to the point that I now really appreciate a well designed tool that takes noise level into account. I bought a little one gallon Shop Vac and the thing is so loud that I gave it away after only using it a few times. The Fein is just a well made tool, no different from a Lie-Nielsen low angle plane. I feel like a vac is so pedestrian that it doesn't get the consideration that the plane gets. To me, it's one of the most valued tools in my shop.

Jamie

[Art Read]

I read an article once about product design and engineering. And how consumer testing so often determines various aspects of a product's characteristics. With a power tool manufacturer, their engineers had made some elegant designs that were significantly quieter than usual. After market testing, they were told to go back to the drawing board and make 'em louder! It seems "most" people equate "volume" with quality... I know I'd sure like to have quiter tools. But even my relatively "quiet" band saw really screams as soon as I start feeding wood into it. I think vibration and "resonance" in the wood itself is often louder than the tool itself.

[Bob Cleek]

Yea, vacuum attachments will make your sand paper last a little longer and they are great when working in confined spaces like below on a boat, but, OSHA aside, I really think the cost of the fancy hook and loop paper with the holes in it and the vacuum is unjustified. A squirt of old fashioned disk adhesive on the pad... slap it down on a hunk of standard decent quality sandpaper and cut around the edge with your utility knife and you're in business for a hell of a lot less money. A 5" random orbital will give you a couple of disks out of a standard 8"X10" sheet of paper, with the rest left over for hand sanding. Economical. A good vac is very handy, but perhaps not as efficient as a good compressor when it comes to blowing out the dust!

Now, getting back to your original post... "The yard requires a vacuum on sanders." Screw them! Find another yard! Really. Any boat yard that makes rules like that is obviously looking to gouge the customers. What a load of crap! Now I've head everything. Next they'll be wanting you to wear a respirator when you fart! Boat yards are SUPPOSED to be dirty, dusty, stinky, toxic places. That's the charm of it. You might as well try boating without getting the bottom wet as sanding without dust!

[Allen Foote]

Bob, that attitude about marinas is non-sense. Its the EPA that is behind the large $ lawsuits that shut down marinas due to noncompliance. Thank the Dems for this one...not that I totally disagree however. I started using a vacume cleaner duct taped to a sander 10 years ago because I realized that the more bottom paint sanding dust that I could keep off of me...the better I felt at the end of the day. I think is 1 of the few regulations that makes sense....even the the benefactor of the regulation was never ment to be the laborer.

[Tom Lathrop]

Bob,

Somebody licked the red off your peppermint candy this morning? :rolleyes: Sure, it's the EPA and OSHA that dictates this regulation, not the boatyard. I can't believe that in California, of all places, that you can get away with blasting bottom paint around the yard. Even in our backwater DIY yard, they require vacuum on sanders and enclosures over LPU painting jobs.

I am fairly parsimonious about spending too much money on sandpaper but I think hook and loop paper pays its way. I like the ability to change grits when I want to without having to protect the used stick-on paper from dirt that makes it useless. Worse problem is trying to find the size and grit I want at a good price. I use both kinds, H&L on the big horses and mostly stick-on for the little sanders.

[Bob Cleek]

Yea, too much pepper in my oatmeal this AM, I guess. First off, what kind of nut disk sands BOTTOM PAINT, for Criminey's sake? Are we talking about bottom paint here or topsides?

Well, to tell you the truth, I've touched up bottom paint with a sander now and then when there were just a few spots coming loose. You set up a big fan over your shoulder and blow it off into the distance. Works for limited applications. On the other hand, if you are stripping a bottom, a torch is the only way to go.

As for enclosures and so on for LPU, well... LPU is only suitable for fibreglass and maybe metal boats, right? Sure wouldn't want to put it on wood! LOL Yes, you don't want to breathe that stuff. No question. As for enclosures, though... well, I wouldn't bother going to that much trouble to make sure some OTHER guy doesn't breathe it. Spray early in the morning before a lot of people are around.

As for OSHA and the EPA... These are good rules for working men who deal with this stuff day in and day out. Cumulative exposure to many "marginal toxics" can be dangerous and working stiffs need protection from the bean counters who might otherwise tell them to forget the safety precautions in the interests of making a buck. As for the rest of us who deal with our bottoms now and again, the traditional methods took into account not getting sick and they still work. Always have. It isn't like old time traditional wooden boatbuilders are dropping dead of some sort of toxic exposure. (The poor slobs who sprayed asbestos in the shipyards are another thing, unfortunately.) Be careful, use common sense, and you should live long enough to pay your taxes off. As for vacuums on sanders in prudent boatyard applications, I still say, "Give me a break!" In my book, those guys are just making it hard for people to work on their own boats for the sake of an extra buck. Would YOU trust a guy who proposes to rent you a $100 worth of vacuum for $40 a day? LOL

[Donn]

Cleek...I'm glad you're on the west coast, and not crapping up my part of the world.

[Bob Cleek]

Guys who don't want to get dirty when they play are sissies!

[Dave Hadfield]

There are no such sanding-dust restrictions in my boatyard except perhaps for the spraying of paint. Then, if it drifts onto another boat, you're liable. That's it.

But for some reason they put out a letter asking us not to sleep on board when it's on the hard. After a fair amount of protest they backed off, saying they were only pointing out that the insurance may not be valid. But the rules never seem to get less.

(Universal Law Derived From Observation of Boatyards and Waterways: Restictions always increase to the point of maximum permissible trespass.)

It makes me wish my boat was portable. There's a lot to be said for taking it home and fixing it there, like my old MacGregor.

I know! I'll move to the water and have my own haul-out! There. Problem solved.

[Matt Middleton]

Hi Bob- I wouldn't be going to this yard if I didn't have to. Seems that yards around here have an aversion to hauling wood boats, and not many will let you do your own work. This is the ONLY yard that offers both cahracteristics without me having to drive ~50 miles each way- that would be tough considering I have to do the work on afternoons and weekends. I even have to have my mast taken down to get to this yard.
I posted in the "Miscellaneous" section about this, but a few yards have already sold out to developers to build condos with boat slips. It seems there aren't many yards left for me to access, so whether I like the rules or not, I have to play by them.
But, back to topic. Seems that Fein is the consensus, and I'm considering the Porter Cable sander ('cuz I saw in this automotive catalog where they use it to do waxing/polishing- I like it when I can a good quality purpose built tool for more than one project!). I would consider hand sanding, but only for a second or two. I have to paint the bottom, topsides, AND deck which includes removing the sand that a previous owner used for non-skid. (Wish me luck and any tips are welcome- that sand is really in there!)
Matt

[Buddy Sharpton]

For us "home" builders, there are two small Feins-the$150 and the$229. It's the $229 i'm ta;lking about. I bought sanders at Home Depot. The $50 5" bosch had died before a older $60 Dewalt. Do get the 1/2 thick foam adapter pad for working on compound curves. Hook and Loop paper discs last enough longer than the stick-it roll stuff to go that route. The vacuum makes all the discs last far longer, the Fein is quieter by far than any I've fooled with, it's small enough to lift into boat, and the automatic on switch is so trick I wouldn't go back . My opinion anyhow.

[Bob Cleek]

Not to take this thread off in another direction (Spring for the Fein... the best tool is always the cheapest in the end) but... yep, this boatyard crap is becoming a big problem, particularly for wooden boats. Where I am, I can't imagine a yard that refused to haul wooden boats would stay in business long. Working on them yourself is another thing. It seems that is a function of how much storage room they have and whether they have to tie up a cradle or ways for a do it yourselfer. Obviously, they are making more money on doing work themselves, and they want them in and out, not sitting there all week while an owner only works on the weekends. However, all the yards on the Bay that have the space CATER to do it yourselfers. Some have huge storage yards where you can work a month of weekends. They charge "lay days" for the space, but it is reasonable. I know what you mean about those concrete docked antiseptic developers' marinas with the matching fibreglass dock boxes where they won't let you varnish at the dock, etc. I wouldn't give them the business. Leave those for the "turn key" plastic boat crowd. Support your local down and dirty boatyard!

That said, I have also found that there is a world of difference in the reception you are going to get at any yard, depending upon who you are and what you know. I know yards where they are happy to have those of us who know pretty much what we are doing and respect the needs of the yard to make a buck. If the yard owner knows that you aren't going to do something stupid (like removing all the supports on one side at once or spraying three feet from a topside job they've just finished), you pay your bills on time, and you think enough to contribute a case of beer to the yard crew's Friday afterwork gam (and a fifth to the yard boss when you launch), you'll find yourself a welcome customer.

[Ed Harrow]

Speaking of Fein... My little vac is great, but not perfect. The included plastic vacuuming bits are pretty poor IMHO. The bags, filters, etc are pricy, to say the least. I have put a Genie filter bag around the Fein filter, which should go a long way towards extending the life of the filter for short money. I'd love to find a cheaper source for the bags (which I use only when sanding nasty stuff). I don't know if I have an unused one but, if I do, I'll take the dimensions and maybe we can compare notes.

But their marvelous little vibrating detail sander/saw is just fabulous. I used it tonight to correct a "builder's mistake" ( ;) No, I'm not talking any more about it, LOL) Without that tool I'd probably have had to replace a couple of boards on our front porch (by the time I got them up they'd have likely been in pretty tough shape). With the Fein it took about 10 minutes to correct the problem, and several of those minutes were used in getting the Fein out, assembled, and then returning it to its place of honor.

(Now, being ever the nitpicker, they could both be improved with detachable cords, like Milwaukee uses. tongue.gif )

[Scott Rosen]

Ed,

I use the standard 5 gallon shop-vac bags for my Fein vac. They fit perfectly and are about 1/4 the cost.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
...Working on [your boat] yourself is another thing. It seems that is a function of how much storage room they have and whether they have to tie up a cradle or ways for a do it yourselfer. Obviously, they are making more money on doing work themselves, and they want them in and out, not sitting there all week while an owner only works on the weekends.Another issue is the yard's liability insurance. It may not allow non-employees to work in the yard. If you have an accident working on your boat in the yard, the yard's owner can be held liable for the accident.