Anybody know about New Zealand pine?

[sam b]

Menards in my area(Minnesota) sells pine from New Zealand in very long, clear lengths. Does anybody know anything about this wood? Its seems fairly dense for pine. I visited a few New Zealand timber company websites. It states the wood is a dense pine that resists warping/shrinking and is very pourus. I already purchased some thinking it was white pine. Thanks for any help.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I think it's radiata. You need someone from Downunder to clue you in.
Dealing with bigbox stores is a crapshoot.

[sam b]

I found out it is also called monterey pine. Still can't find if anybody has ever used it for a boat.

[Thorne]

Try a forum search, as we just had an extended discussion of this.

In general it seems to be not recommended, some of the Kiwis and Aussies refer to it as "radirotta pine".

;0 )

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

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Yes, there was a thread running recently on this.

If it's pinus radiata, then it's also Monterey Pine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_radiata), and a native (I think) of California. We've had it growing here in Oz for so long we think of it as Australian though. (It's actually considered a weed here now in some areas, for reasons that escape me -- particularly since it's still grown here in massive plantations.) Its main use is as building scantling, and it is often sold after being CCA-treated for durability in contact with soil. Cut small trees (or branches) are traditionally used as Christmas trees.

It's a very knotty timber (you can see why from the first picture,) so it's unusual to get long clear lengths. But if you can get them (and whatever it might say on the other thread) in my view they'd be quite usable for planking. (I say this theoretically as I haven't used it as such.)

In order, the pictures show the branch structure, the young "Christmas-tree" growth, and a mature tree (perhaps 50 years old, 100 feet high, and 4' or 5' diameter.)

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/vroimages.nsf/Images/weeds_pine_cones/$File/tn_pine_cones.jpg http://www.littlehillschristmastree.com/img/MontereyPine.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2262/2515651260_dac13ddffb.jpg?v=1211585882

Alternatively, what you might have is a sample of plantation-grown oregon (Douglas fir,) which I understand is commonly grown in NZ. In that case it's much more likely to provide you with long clear lengths, and would be considered a better timber all round for boatbuilding. (Pole spars come to mind immediately.) But I understand the NZ variety is not slow-growth and so, as oregon, is not as good as the old-growth timber still available I believe in the US.
.

[seanz]

Sam b, you don't say how you want to use the Pine.
The previous thread on Radiata was about using it for a small mast and spars.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84820


.
Yes, there was a thread running recently on this.

We've had it growing here in Oz for so long we think of it as Australian though. (It's actually considered a weed here now in some areas, for reasons that escape me -- particularly since it's still grown here in massive plantations.)


Pinus Radiata is considered a weed in Oz because it is exotic and invasive, those massive plantations can spread into surrounding native forest........


Alternatively, what you might have is a sample of plantation-grown oregon (Douglas fir,) which I understand is commonly grown in NZ. In that case it's much more likely to provide you with long clear lengths, and would be considered a better timber all round for boatbuilding.

It's possible that it's Douglas Fir (Oregon) but the stuff I've seen is pinkish compared to Radiata and a whole lot knottier. On the whole not great timber but still useful for some stuff (GP not boat building) though.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Pinus Radiata is considered a weed in Oz because it is exotic and invasive, those massive plantations can spread into surrounding native forest........

Oh, I quite agree. My point is that they're still planting them though.

What's pleasing to see is that they're now also putting in plantations of Sydney blue and other eucalyptus as well. But of course they're hardwoods, and slower-growing. Radiata grows so fast it's almost a cash crop.

There were radiata forests planted here in Canberra early last century, many of which were pretty-well destroyed in the fires a few years ago. What horrifies me is to see that the fire-cleared areas are now growing back, with the radiata well ahead of anything else of any note. Some of these are 10' - 15' tall already. Early, sustained action could have completed the job the fires started, but it didn't happen and now we're back to having to use chainsaws again if we want our native forests re-established.

I'd rather like Wassa to chime in here though, as unlike me he's a long-term resident and probably knows a good deal more about Canberra forestry than I do.

Where radiata really shines is as individual or clumped shade trees in cleared grazing land, and Aussie farmers have grown them this way pretty-well since the first squatters took up land.

Mike

[seanz]

Indeed, where is Wild Wassa?
A man of his experience would have seen Radiata used somewhere or somehow on a boat. He doesn't post half as much as he used to and not nearly as much as he should.
:)

[dhic001]

As I said once before:

Pinus Radiata and west system epoxy make us most of the scow in these threads:
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74738 (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74738)
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85689 (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85689)

While pinus radiata isn't a great timber, there are good and bad pines, Kauri being a member of the pine family. That said, radiata and lots of epoxy seems to be becoming a more acceptable way of building boats, and seems so far to be acceptable. The 'lots of epoxy' is an important part of it though.

Daniel

[Chip-skiff]

To call radiata "New Zealand Pine" is a terrible shame.

It's an introduced species (from North America) and vast areas have been wrecked by commercial plantings without buffer strips or any discernible effort at mitigation. If you think US and Canadian clearcuts are awful, you should see the ones in NZ. (A great shock to me.) It's heavily mechanised and the export trade is huge.

The native pines have been used in boatbuilding. Kauri is wonderful, tight-grained, silky stuff, much used in the NZ boatbuilding trade, but has been so overcut that it's scarce and costly at present.

The native white pine, Kahikatea, has been used for building very light boats (racing skiffs) but is said to rot quickly in a marine environment. Being neutral in smell and taste, it was also used for buttertubs, cheese-boxes and similar containers.

Totara, a podocarp that resembles red cedar, was used by the Mäori for all sorts of carved vessels from boxes & basins to canoes (waka).

In the early 1900s, New Zealand was a boatbuilder's heaven as far as the wood available. Even so, most of the masts and spars on boats for the carriage trade were made of "Oregon" which is good ol' Douglas Fir.

[sam b]

I want to use it as planking. I am building a small 12' flatt bottom skiff with 3 planks per side. I thought if I drenched it with cupernal preservative and epoxy(no glass) it might work. Its definately radiata from New Zealand. I looked up photos and its a dead match. It says product of New Zealand right on it. It sound to me like the New Zealanders don't see any in long clear lengths because it is all shipped to the US. Its available hear in 12" wide perfectly clear lengths up to 16'. What are your guy's thoughts on the preservative and epoxy method?

[Thorne]

No need to reinvent the wheel - previous threads on the topic -

Looks like it might not be the best choice, particularly for boats that live in the water. But if you've already bought it, and if the skiff isn't intended to be an heirloom work of art, sounds like you could use it.


... I remember reading a boatbuilding book by Hartley who advocated its use if very strongly tanalised. He was talking about budget boatbuilding of course, and was into getting as many people onto the water as he could.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84820&highlight=radiata

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81892&highlight=radiata

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123&highlight=radiata

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43690&highlight=radiata

[boatbear]

I used Radiata for the top three planks on my dory. Bottom and garboards are Hoop Pine plywood. All was coated with two good layers of epoxy and it is still sound after 18 years. The boat is trailered. I don't think I would risk it for a boat that stays in the water.

[PeterSibley]

As Charlie says , sealed it should be fine ,but it does have a very high shrinkage .Sealing ,epoxy or paint would be fine .Durability about the same as your construction grade douglas fir .The heavier the better .

[Steveh]

Well you learn something every day. I always thought that monterey pine was macrocarpa but have just found out that it is indeed Cupressus macrocarpa and not monterey pine. Both originating from California.

Monterey pine- pinus radiata is a cash crop in NZ and pretty much a weed also. Grown in plantation and pruned in its juvenile years will yield good clear lengths, which you pay extra for and as stated exported.

Personally I wouldn't touch it for use on boats and only as a last resort if it was tanalised as per Stiletto' post but for a skiff of your description Sam it would be usable. Tanalised it will take on a nice green glow, if you're into that sort of colouration. It is soft and if rot did start you're stuffed.

Pine is mostly used in the home building and fencing also as wharfing but super tanalised to H5-H6 which is as far as you can go with treatment. I have seen wharf post with the centres eaten out by toredo worm where tanalising didn't penetrate. We have a major leaky house problem in New Zealand with pinus radiata framing rotting because of relaxed building codes and subsequent water leaks getting into the framing.

On the other hand Mcrocarpa would be a far more suitable pine. It is far more rot resistant and is used far more in boat building than pine.

And as we all know... it comes down to maintenance doesn't it.

Chip-skiff, spot on.

[dhic001]

We have a major leaky house problem in New Zealand with pinus radiata framing rotting because of relaxed building codes and subsequent water leaks getting into the framing.

The timber isn't the cause of the keay home problem, its all due to lack of treatment combined with poor design in our climate. My olds place is framed with pine, but its the decent treated stuff. A long standing leak in the bay window didn't rot out the framing, but the kauri window frame didn't survive.



On the other hand Mcrocarpa would be a far more suitable pine. It is far more rot resistant and is used far more in boat building than pine.


Yes, a good number of boats have been built of Macrocarpa, including reasonable sized ones (the sharpie Vesper comes to mind). Its not so easy to get good runs of it that are lacking in knots though.

Daniel

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Ah. Monterey Cypress is a horse of a different colour (so to speak.) Cypress is an oily timber, quite rot resistant, and for that reason is often used used as jetty piles and so on, as well as for planking boats. As building scantling it's also resistant to fungus and white ant attack, requiring no CCA, tanalith, or other chemical treatment.

As with radiata or any other softwood -- indeed, as with any timber, softwood or hardwood -- you use it for its valuable properties and where its weaknesses either don't matter or can be counteracted.

Mike

[PeterSibley]

The timber isn't the cause of the keay home problem, its all due to lack of treatment combined with poor design in our climate. My olds place is framed with pine, but its the decent treated stuff. A long standing leak in the bay window didn't rot out the framing, but the kauri window frame didn't survive.

Daniel

If a house leaks it isn't the timber that is to blame ,but lousy building methods .But ,I do have to admit that it is good if the roof lets go for the place not to dissolve !

As an aside ,I have a block of Pinus Elliotii (Slash pine ) nailed to the back of my house in full sun and rain ...and with perfect drainage .It's been there with no appreciable deterioration for 25 years ! :) Slash and radiata are very ,very similar durabilities .Neither like damp and poor air circulation .

[John B]

Don't buy a house in NZ built between 1997 and 2004 , some say 1992, without an extra special supercharged triple effort inspection.IE very carefully.
Coincidentally , this is the period that homes were built from untreated pine due to lobbying by a major timber company to relax the building codes in order to sell a new (untreated) product. Combine that with monolithic cladding , a lack of eaves, flashing and air circulation plus as Pete says , appalling standards of workmanship(lack of tradesmen in a building boom) and you get sponge houses.

[Joel Herzel]

I would have to assume they are selling Monterey Pine, pinus radiata, which is grown in huge plantations there. It is used to build houses there, however every stick is treated for both insect and fungus.

Don't use it.

Where I live, near the Monterey peninisula where it is native, it is not used for any commercial purposes that I am aware of...

It is weak, subject to rot and bugs and twist like you wouldn't believe. When I lived in NZ all wall framing had to have three rows of horozontal blocks to keep the studs from twisting and bowing.

Joel