First boat

[ilikemybike]

I building my first boat a "cheap canoe" on a budget. The plans say to use epoxy and glass tape to the tune of about $130.00 . I used bcx 1/4" plywood and its all cut out. I've read some threads that I think said they use pl premium and a good exterior latex paint instead of epoxy. Am I misunderstanding whats being said? Will this lead to a swim? OR is it safe but takes more maintenance. On my house I only use PL and that stuff is the best so I would think it would hold a 14' boat together. Please advise. Thanks in advance and take care!!!!

[johngsandusky]

I've only built a hollow mast using pl premium. But a sample peice that had loose joints and poor coverage withstood me jumping on it. I weigh 245. If I were gluing boat joints with it, I'd be sure to fillet the corners, to get as much glued surface as possible. And don't go too far from shore.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Are there wood stringers backing up the plywood piece? Or are you supposed to apply epoxy fillets and lay glass tape over the fillets?

If it is fillet and tape construction you can't get by with PL premium

By The Way, have you considered how expensive PL Premium is by the ounce compared to epoxy?

I am constantly amazed that people want to substitute sealant caulks and gorilla glue for epoxy. Typically these inferior items are 2-3 times more expensive per ounce than epoxy.


If wood stringers (or more specifically chine logs) back up the ply joins conceivably you oculd use a polyeurethane sealant instead of epoxy.

[Tar Devil]

Not sure I'd trust chines made just from PL. It's good stuff and I used it in quite a few places on my cheap canoe, but not for the chines.

If you don't wanna use epoxy, make wood chines the way hokiefan (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76779) did with his canoe. That would be perfectly safe and acceptable, in my opinion.

Edited to add: Ray and I posted at the same time. But to address something Ray said... PL probably is more expensive per ounce than epoxy, but you can't buy good marine epoxy in small enough quantities just to glue wood chines on a small canoe. Unless you plan to build more boats (hopefully, yes!), then the PL route can be a less expensive alternative.

[outofthenorm]

It's my strongly held opinion that a good boat can be built from your plywood and PL Premium. In my recent build I used only a minimum of epoxy and lots of PL and ring nails to join panels of waterproof underlay ply. I don't know the cheap canoe, but if it's built using chines rather than tape or stitching, IMO there's no issue. I'd suggest using epoxy to join panels and putting tape on the outside of the chines, PL for all other structural joints, backed up by ring nails anywhere possible. Paint it with a good quality primer and coat inside and out with two coats of good quality paint. If you pay enough attention to filling and sanding, you'll have a fine looking canoe. Keep it clean, dry it out when you put it away and paint it when it needs it and it will last a long long time. Go for it!

My build is documented in this thread. Building Beth (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84601)

- Norm

[Ray Frechette Jr]

I agree that use of wood chines is fine with pl premium. However if build methodoloy is fillet and tape you can not substitute PL premium for the epoxy filet unless you fabricate wood chines to preclude the fillet and tape.

IE You can not runa fillet of pl premium and epoxy ape over it and expect good results.

[ilikemybike]

http://www.bateau2.com/free/ccanoeUS.PDF This is what I'm making. It sounds like it would not be a good idea then to use PL on this project because the strength is the joints themselves. This is what I was going to use this http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetail.php?prod=E_NC16_kit Is this the way to go?

[Tar Devil]

Tell us a little more... are you planning to ecapsulate the boat? If so, the gallon would be a good investment (though you might do better pricewise... such as Fiberglass Coatings (http://www.fgci.com/) - prices aren't currently listed but last time I checked 90 bucks would get you a gallon kit, which yielded 2 gallons of epoxy since it's one-to-one mix). If you're just planning to stitch the panels together, a quart kit will do (if you are careful! Most first timers use more than necessary). As mentioned in several responses, you can avoid epoxy altogether if you use chine logs instead of stitching.

It's a great little boat - fun to build and use. Quite a few of us have built it and and several are well documented... just use the search function.

Oh... welcome aboard! (forgot to mention that in my earlier response)

[Spokaloo]

PL makes bad filleting material. I just had a transom break free of the acx bottom of a small rowboat. It will not hold a fillet like epoxy will.

E

[Ray Frechette Jr]

go to raka.com. You can get epoxy, wood flour, and tape a bit cheaper there.

I bet you could easiley get by with 4 inches of 10 tape oo instead of 6 inch

[outofthenorm]

I have a fair bit of experience with PL now and I agree with the comments above - you cannot use PL as a filleting or taping "glue". It requires pressure to form a bond - so it's no good for that. But I just had a look at the plans, and if you feel confident in your woodworking skills, the cheap canoe could be very easily built "old school" with say a 3/4 inch square "log" piece at the chine and at the ends.

But having said, that, I also think the boat is small enough that the epoxy cost to build as designed is probably worth it. In other words, it's okay (IMO) to build with lesser materials, but it will require some skill and judgement on your side. If you don't have the skills or the confidence ( which is OK, BTW, no criticism implied) you should probably stick to the plans. If you follow the plans, the build should be easy and very satisfying for the total cost.

- Norm

[Jarge]

First boat ehh.I just finished my first.14'7"loa 6'3" beam.used Pl premium,plywood,and screws.Worked great.Applied thick it tends to create air bubbles as it cures.I let these areas set overnight then planded the area and reapplied the glue to the air bubble holes to fill.Produced a hard tight strong join and joint filler.Used 6 tubes @ 4.49 Can ,6 sheets of 3/8 ply 12.38 ,1200 1" screws ,5-2x6x16 ,10-1x3x16,2-2x12x12,1-1/2 gallons of oil based house paint and the floor 12-1x6x12 ,oars 4-1x6x10 ,1 bottle of whiskey and a 24 of beer all for $500
Good luck

[ilikemybike]

Thanks for all the good advice. I'm going to follow the plans. I really don't have the experience to make a call for change. Its not very much to spend for supplies too. I saw the PL idea and I love to use it around the house so I figured I'd ask first. I'm glad I did too! I'll post some pics of what I have so far when I figure out how.
I planned to add a yoke too. since its going to be a single person canoe were is the best place to put it. In the front of the seat or the back? I thought the back, then maybe it could be used as a backrest too. Also I saw a canoe with the bow and stern sealed up under the breasthook to help the canoe float if it were to fill up with water. Can I add that to this canoe? Or would this be a waste of time?

[Tar Devil]

I'll post some pics of what I have so far when I figure out how.

Manditory for WBF membership! :D


Also I saw a canoe with the bow and stern sealed up under the breasthook to help the canoe float if it were to fill up with water. Can I add that to this canoe? Or would this be a waste of time?

Depends on your usage. I use mine 95% of the time in a shallow river (and the boat floats anyway), so I didn't want the extra construction weight. For excursions into deeper waters I tywrap fun noodles to the inside of my boat under the inwales. Works great. Also, sealing up the ends is an invitation to trap rot condusive moisture.

[ilikemybike]

First boat ehh.I just finished my first.14'7"loa 6'3" beam.used Pl premium,plywood,and screws.Worked great.Applied thick it tends to create air bubbles as it cures.I let these areas set overnight then planded the area and reapplied the glue to the air bubble holes to fill.Produced a hard tight strong join and joint filler.Used 6 tubes @ 4.49 Can ,6 sheets of 3/8 ply 12.38 ,1200 1" screws ,5-2x6x16 ,10-1x3x16,2-2x12x12,1-1/2 gallons of oil based house paint and the floor 12-1x6x12 ,oars 4-1x6x10 ,1 bottle of whiskey and a 24 of beer all for $500
Good luck
That sounds like a very fun project for sure!!! And I admire you for keeping your drinking to reasonable levels. I drank half of a quarter barrel just reading and rereading the plans. LOL!!! Thanks for wishing me luck. I hope this continues working out I'd love to make more boats in the future.

[ilikemybike]

Manditory for WBF membership! :D



For excursions into deeper waters I tywrap fun noodles to the inside of my boat under the inwales. Works great. Also, sealing up the ends is an invitation to trap rot condusive moisture.
Great idea!!! and a great point too!!!!

[Driver Mark]

http://www.bateau2.com/free/ccanoeUS.PDF This is what I'm making. It sounds like it would not be a good idea then to use PL on this project because the strength is the joints themselves. This is what I was going to use this http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetail.php?prod=E_NC16_kit Is this the way to go?
If your not dead set on the cheap canoe, John bell of JB's boatyard (not sure of web address) has a couple of little rowing dories he offers free plans for that are chine log construction, which would be compatable with pl prem. also simplicityboats.com has some row/sail boats of the same type constuction method. (if your interested)

[Robert L E]

A yoke should be place just forward of the point where the canoe would balance on your shoulders. Your hands will be holding the front of the boat down. You grip the forward thwart and if the yoke is in the right place, then just the weight of your arms is all that is needed to keep it level.

If it is perfectly balanced, it seems like you are constantly pushing up or pulling down and if you are going any distance, your arms will get tired faster than your back, neck, or legs.

If the yoke is too far back then you have to constantly push the canoe up and your arms will not last at all.

If your portages are short a yoke may not be needed. Just hold the canoe at the center and hang it from one shoulder.

In any case, if a yoke is the way you wish to go, it should be just forward of the balance point.


Bob

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I building my first boat a "cheap canoe" on a budget. The plans say to use epoxy and glass tape to the tune of about $130.00 . I used bcx 1/4" plywood and its all cut out. I've read some threads that I think said they use pl premium and a good exterior latex paint instead of epoxy. Am I misunderstanding whats being said? Will this lead to a swim? OR is it safe but takes more maintenance. On my house I only use PL and that stuff is the best so I would think it would hold a 14' boat together. Please advise. Thanks in advance and take care!!!!

I've got about 8 years on my Cheap Canoe. I built if by the book. Well, not quite but almost. I also built the D4 Pram as a sailboat. The critical thing to remember that the epoxy works in concert with the glass tape to give Stitch and Glue construction superstrong joints. It's possible to glue CC together with construction adhesive but you'll have to glue the panels to an old fashioned stick frame and use screws to boot. All that stuff adds weight and will never be as strong as glass tape potted in epoxy.
I accidently ran my own destructive testing lab. My Cheap Canoe came off my roofrack on the Ohio Turnpike and landed in the road. None of the seams let go. The boat was well scuffed up but it was usable without any repairs.
Next, there is no, NO, paint made that gets a grip on wood like epoxy. And the epoxy barrier is better than any paint for sealing the wood.
My Cheapie cost me about $265 way back when and it was worth every dollar.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=333

[ilikemybike]

I've got about 8 years on my Cheap Canoe. I built if by the book. Well, not quite but almost. I also built the D4 Pram as a sailboat. The critical thing to remember that the epoxy works in concert with the glass tape to give Stitch and Glue construction superstrong joints. It's possible to glue CC together with construction adhesive but you'll have to glue the panels to an old fashioned stick frame and use screws to boot. All that stuff adds weight and will never be as strong as glass tape potted in epoxy.
I accidently ran my own destructive testing lab. My Cheap Canoe came off my roofrack on the Ohio Turnpike and landed in the road. None of the seams let go. The boat was well scuffed up but it was usable without any repairs.
Next, there is no, NO, paint made that gets a grip on wood like epoxy. And the epoxy barrier is better than any paint for sealing the wood.
My Cheapie cost me about $265 way back when and it was worth every dollar.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=333
That sure is a great canoe you made. I hope mine comes out as well as yours. Its also good to know that it will hold up too!!! I have a small son 5yrs old and about 40 lbs do you think he could ride with on a calm lake or river?

[ilikemybike]

If your not dead set on the cheap canoe, John bell of JB's boatyard (not sure of web address) has a couple of little rowing dories he offers free plans for that are chine log construction, which would be compatable with pl prem. also simplicityboats.com has some row/sail boats of the same type constuction method. (if your interested)
Thank you these are great web sites!

[Spokaloo]

I used $10 ply, PL for the glue on the gunwales, and extra glass and epoxy I had from another project. I also messed with the lines a little, making her 16' long.

$68 invested

3 years its been around now. I cheaped out on paint to see how long the ply would last, and it just won't die...

E

[Tar Devil]

Personlly, I don't think epoxy is overrated... I just think paint is underrated.

Painted ply is going to last a very long time if kept dry in doors.

[ilikemybike]

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\My Documents\My Pictures\Kodak Pictures\2008-10-20My attempt at posting pics

[ilikemybike]

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/data/1/thumbs/100_3613.JPGhttp://www.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/data/1/thumbs/100_3604.JPGhttp://www.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/data/1/thumbs/100_3605.JPGhttp://www.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/data/1/thumbs/100_3615.JPGThis is my second attempt at posting pics! Thats my boy hard at work and me also.

[Tar Devil]

All I see is a banner saying "No Hotlinking"

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

That sure is a great canoe you made. I hope mine comes out as well as yours. Its also good to know that it will hold up too!!! I have a small son 5yrs old and about 40 lbs do you think he could ride with on a calm lake or river?
An adult and a modest sized child are about all you can comfortably fit. You MUST keep the center of gravity low. That means everyone sits no more than about 4" from the bottom. But , the lower the better. The reason my head is so high above the water is I'm kneeling on the bottom. If I had a seat that carried me that high I would tip over in a minute. Load the boat so it is level. It will go better if both stems are touching the water.

[ilikemybike]

http://s375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/th_100_3620.jpghttp://s375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/th_100_3619.jpghttp://s375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/th_100_3614.jpghttp://s375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/th_100_3604.jpghttp://s375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/th_100_3613.jpg Third try. This time with photobucket.

[Tar Devil]

Looking good! Don't know if you've gotten that far, but are you planning to pull the panels together with tape? Several of us have had difficulty making the panels stay together via the methods in the plans. I found that by placing several strips of tape width wise, starting at the top of the side panels and going under the boat to the top of the opposite side, helps hold the critter in place. Four or five of these strips spaced along the hull did the trick.

[ilikemybike]

I still have to epoxy the butt boards. I've been saving up to get the epoxy kit so thats the hold up now. Is there epoxy at the Home Depot that I can use to just attact all the panels? Maybe a quart size?

[Tar Devil]

Is there epoxy at the Home Depot that I can use to just attact all the panels? Maybe a quart size?

Not mine. Do you have a West Marine store nearby?

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Those planks look rather dark. Did you put something on them?

[ilikemybike]

Those planks look rather dark. Did you put something on them?
I stained them golden oak.

[ilikemybike]

Not mine. Do you have a West Marine store nearby?
I do have a West Marine so I called and they will have to order what I need. They were very helpfull.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I stained them golden oak.

If you used an oil stain you have screwed yourself. The epoxy will not make a suitable bond on surfaces that are contaminated with any kind of oil. A waterbase stain will work but stain will always be a problem. After the seams are taped you have to sand down the edges so the tape doesn't show. It's almost impossible to do that and not sand the adjacent plywood which means the stain will go away with the sawdust.

[Tar Devil]

I do have a West Marine so I called and they will have to order what I need. They were very helpfull.

They also should have a booklet on epoxy. Can't remember if it's free or not, but since you're new to this I suggest you make the investment.

Chuck's right... if you used oil stain, those panels are worthless. In almost any circumstance epoxy should go on bare wood - unadulterated by stain, glue, paint, varnish, potato chip greasy hands, etc.

[ilikemybike]

That sucks!!!!!!!!! Well at least people who are reading this thread will not make that mistake. Can I go with a frame chine logs and PL now then paint it? OR is it back to Menards for some more BCX?

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

That sucks!!!!!!!!! Well at least people who are reading this thread will not make that mistake. Can I go with a frame chine logs and PL now then paint it? OR is it back to Menards for some more BCX?

There is a thread by Hokiefan that did just that. He even posted pics. http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76779
You may have to use screws too.

[ilikemybike]

There is a thread by Hokiefan that did just that. He even posted pics. http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76779
You may have to use screws too.
Ok I'm going for it. If it doesn't float I'll cut it back in half and make a book shelf.

[J. Dillon]

Like may here I also built that boat. I'd think carefully about taking your son out in it. If you do you will have to make the seating arrangement differently so that the boat trims as designed for and aft. You don't want to have your son in a scary situation where the balance is compromised. The boat as designed is just right for one person. If you want to take two , think of another boat designed for two.

I have had a lot of fun in mine and BTW if you don't like the idea of carrying it around, put on a set of wheels that can be taken off /on with just tightening/ loosening of one nut. But I'm 79 I like to make it easy.;)

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5066/piroguetiedownshowingwhgk4.jpg

PS I've since put on larger wheels.

JD

[ilikemybike]

Like may here I also built that boat. I'd think carefully about taking your son out in it. If you do you will have to make the seating arrangement differently so that the boat trims as designed for and aft. You don't want to have your son in a scary situation where the balance is compromised. The boat as designed is just right for one person. If you want to take two , think of another boat designed for two.

I have had a lot of fun in mine and BTW if you don't like the idea of carrying it around, put on a set of wheels that can be taken off /on with just tightening/ loosening of one nut. But I'm 79 I like to make it easy.;)

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5066/piroguetiedownshowingwhgk4.jpg

PS I've since put on larger wheels.

JD
I was thinking of taking him on a very small lake aroung here its almost a pond. Nothing with choppy waves. If he's sitting I can't see an issue. I will test it first by myself first though. Also thanks for the picture of the wheels. That design is simple and smart! The added weight of the chine logs and the inner and outer gunnels may start making it heavier than I want to carry for a long distance. I know I can make that in a snap.

Heres what I've done now that it can't be epoxied.....
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/100_3650.jpg?t=1225658523
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/100_3649.jpg?t=1225659284
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/100_3651.jpg?t=1225659347

I PL glued the butt boards and the panels together. I glued the ends of the boards as well. Now I'll wait for them to cure. Then My crazy plan is to rip two chine logs 1 1/2" by 1 1/8" from a 14 ' 2 *4 Then glue ( PL ) and screw everything together. I also plan to cut a piece of wood to support bow and stern where the sides meet. ( Not sure what that would be called ) I bought 1" construction screws for the job.
For the gunwales I plan to rip from a 2*4 then glue and screw them in place.

[ilikemybike]

http://s375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/th_100_3652.jpghttp://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/100_3653.jpg?t=1225779244http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo192/ilikemybike1/100_3654.jpg?t=1225779290
Ok here it is glued and screwed.