Best Books ??

[Northernguy59]

I am planning on building a wooden 40' - 42' Traditional Pilot Cutter. What is the best books out there for construction purposes? Coments appriciated
Thanks

[Jim Lowe]

I’d recommend, “How to build a wooden boat” by Bud McIntosh and Sam Manning. It provides a detailed guide to the construction of a traditional sailboat from lofting to launch. This book has been my mentor. If you’re planning to build a traditional boat - this is the one. There is a lot of experience and sawdust in this book. Get it.

[ken mcclure]

Yep. McIntosh is a must have. I also liked Pardey's "Details of Classic Boat Construction: The Hull," Steward's "Boatbuilding Manual," and Richard Birmingham's "Boatbuilding Techniques Illustrated."

Of course, there's always the other "must have" - Chapelle's "Boatbuilding."

[Alan D. Hyde]

Jim and Ken have got it covered. McIntosh is worth it just for the attitude and the dry humor.

For instance, there's a passage in which a naval architect with no practical boat-building savvy leaves the shop, after instructing the builders, and Bud wonders "how he got all that knowledge into such a small head."

Good luck!

Alan

[ 05-24-2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Northernguy59]

Thanks guys, I ordered the book last night. Hope to start construction In July. Any advise or comments? I,m 1/2 scot and 1/2 norwiegen. More than likely stubborn enough to complete the project !! :D

[Art Read]

Just another vote for McIntosh... It wasn't 'till I picked up my copy and sat down in a coffee shop next door with it, that I finally decided I was really going to do this. His introduction alone is enough to motivate you...

[Bob Cleek]

Advice or comments? Well, you asked for it! LOL

Look, buy ALL the books they've suggested here, and then whatever else you can get your hands on. Then study them for, oh, maybe five or ten years, all the while looking at every wooden boat you can, studying the construction details. During that time, develop at least a journeyman's level of skill in woodworking, plumbing, electrical work, rigging, foundry work and all the other ordinary building trades. Collect about $50,000 worth of tools, many of which will probably take you years to find, let alone afford. Then go spend another five or ten years working on repairing traditionally built wooden boats. Build two or three dinghys and maybe a 20 or 25 footer. Make sure you are in top physical shape. Lift weights. THEN think about a 40-42 traditional pilot cutter, if you have maybe ten or fifteen years of spare time left, a hundred grand you don't know what to do with and a wife who doesn't mind the thing sitting in her yard all that time... but build an exact 1" to the foot scale model of it first, just to work out the kinks.

Friend, if you are asking what book you ought to read about boatbuilding, you are on the right track, but WAY down the line. I can tell you that you aren't even going to get wood bought and delivered by July, let alone start building. Oh, and BTW... you DO have the plans already, don't you? Don't forget the time it will take to air dry your lumber. That'll take a couple of years, but then, it can dry at the same time you are lofting, making patterns, casting a keel, shaping the backbone, and so on.

Now, after all that, if you still are game, I'd say, definitely, GO FOR IT!

[Northernguy59]

Hey Bob, Thanks for your positive comments. First off I dont have a wife to deal with. I have the funds, Im a journeyman carpenter and have all the tools and am in good physical shape. I said start in July. Everything has a starting point Bob. I have lot of time on my hands and the plans are in the mail. Fire away Bob, Im moving forward. Thanks for the input.

[ 05-24-2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Northernguy59 ]

[Ian McColgin]

So the first thing you've bought is lots of plywood for the full sized lofting?

And (spelled phoneticly but you'll find it in WB store) Vatsey's lofting book.

G'luck

[Dave Fleming]

Northern Guy, out of lurk mode come I for this one.
Cleekster is saying some of the same things I said not too long ago to another poster to the Forums. Pretty much the same way too. ;)
That fella took it his way and you are taking it your way but, in the yards an uptown carpenter was pretty lost until he had some time under his belt. Frankly most didn't last long. :(
Reason, we were getting about 60% of what an uptown journeyman carpenter was making but we were happy because we ( well most of us ) were nuts about boats. :D
I have worked uptown, heavy construction, 9 months on BART line in San Francisco, and In My Opinionated Opinion, you may have some tools but I very much doubt if you have the hand and power tools needed for that scale of a Wooden Boat new build.
To start on such an ambitious project I do hope you are being realistic on all the aspects. Get the plans, read Chappelle and Macintosh, get SS Rabls book on Lofting ( I used it for teaching 'green peas the rudiments of lofting and it was what we had used in apprentice class ), start lofting and making a materials list, search out suppliers for wood, fastenings etc., find a foundry for casting the ballast keel, send out lumber lists to prospective suppliers, wait for the prices come back, don't read them standing up. :D
Start making moulds and other patterns, Take delivery of lumber and sticker it under cover being sure to paint the plank and timber ends with thick paint to prevent excessive checking and dryout and, according to what stage of project it will be needed for. Ya don't want to bury your keel and frame timbers under the planking stock, ya folla?
Then there are things like where to build and what kind of shed is needed depending on the climate where you intend to build and of course the lumber should be under some sort of cover too. Set up stationary wood working tools on one side of building shed floor. Planer at least 14 inch better a 18 inch for that size material and 8 or 12 inch joiner( your wood will come rough sawn as it should), a bandsouar either fixed frame or tilting frame if using sawn frames. If sawn frames then we are looking at a 26 inch minimum machine as I have never seen a tilting frame BS smaller than that. Drill press would be nice too, at least for making all the plugs/bungs you are going to need for fastener holes in planking-decking-interior joiner work. Not to mention tooling, drill bits, counterbores/countersinks, extra sets of planer and joiner blades, that wood ain't squeeky clean ya know, its been dragged all over the place and is full of grit so at least a good brush off better a nice shot of compressed air to clean off the rough surface before planing. Nice if you could fine a Skil 100 or PC 653 hand power planer for working timbers and plank stock but since they haven't been made in at least 10 years or so, E-bay searching might pay off though.
Don't be discouraged but again I stress this most strongly...give your idea/dream serious thought and be realistic in terms of time and money. Probably talking about 5 thousand plus man hours here.
Alan Hyde sent me a photo copy of the articles from WoodenBoat magazine regarding a couple that have done similar, not once but twice. See issue # 153, "Pragmatic Dreamers" is the name of the article. Interesting reading, or so says I.

[ 05-25-2002, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[RGM]

A couple of things first. The other guys have pretty well lined out the library for you. Additionally, take a look thru the various offerings from WB magazine in the way of repair/replacement/construction guides for various parts of boats such as the stem, etc , you may find them useful. If you're not familiar with lofting then you should pick up some literature on that. Lofting is alot of fun and kind of an art form all by itself, especially if you are going to build a boat the size that you are considering. Have you done any preliminary lumber hunting yet? Where abouts do you live? A big barn or shed of some sort would be real handy. Are you lucky enough to have one of those lined up? And finally, the message in your thread simply states that you plan on building a traditional 40' + pilot cutter, what books do you need and comments are welcome. You didn't give us much to go on with regards to your experience or lack there of. What your situation was or specifically how far along you were or weren't on your project. You asked for comments, you got them. Maybe it wasn't quite what you wanted to hear from Cleek but he had nothing to go on and as you can tell he is genuinely interested in your project. The meat of his message is in the last few words spelled out in capital letters. You may regard him as a long winded lawyer. However, he knows exactly what it takes in terms of skill, resources and diligence to do what you intend to do. He didn't learn it in law school or the court room. You plan on embarking on a major undertaking, it sounds like you are fairly new to this. This forum is potentially an excellent resource for you. We can help you more than you probably realize at this point. When you open yourself up to comments here you also open yourself up to our individual personalities and experiences. Keep an open mind, don't insult us. Good luck with your project, were looking forward to your progress and hopefully pictures. How's that for long winded?

[NormMessinger]

Bob was not being negative. A realistic generalization, I'd say. 'Course a 20' gaff rigged cutter was big enough for me. But it can be done. Check out http://www.rutuonline.com/ . Near as I can tell Glen is doing his boat pretty much single handedly but with a lot of friend and family when an extra dozen hands are required.

Best wishes.

--Norm

Oh, and remember no lines are parallel and no corners are square. Just my kind of carpentery.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Dave Fleming's advice is good.

Read WB #153, "Pragmatic Dreamers."

Herb and Doris built their first boat alongside Bud McIntosh...

Alan

[Northernguy59]

Thanks for your comments. I posted this and asked for coments because I know that in the process of this huge project I will need advise and support from experianced boat builders like yourselves which I am not. I have a goal. Im not in a hurry and will take time to learn the proper skills I will need to accomplish my goal. I do apprictate Bobs experiance and my scrimp post left me open for "comments". Truly they are appricated. I am planning on building some small boats in the process and when I said "start construction" ment that I hope to start moving forward and getting information, nessesary equipment, lumber, materials etc. I will take heed to every post on here and thanks again.

[RGM]

So, once again, where are you located?

[Dave Fleming]

Roger, from another if his posts, Ontario, Canada.
He be needin' a good old pot bellied stove I'm thinkin'.....

[Northernguy59]

Got one of those to and a big ole' maul

[Northernguy59]

Well I have learned one thing as a "Greenhormn" is that I should have been more specific in my orginal post. I am very open to "comments" from you guys and I hope to be apart of this Forum for and long time and make many friends. Thanks Agian

[Jim Lowe]

Northern,
The project your beginning will take years of your life to accomplish and much of your resources and energy. Take the time to count the cost. In ten years time you may very well be married and broke with an aching back and your boat still unfinished. Life happens.
I don’t think that anyone here would tell you to give up your dream. It just sounds as if you need to build your experience level before taking on this project.
Consider building a boat that you estimate would take one year to complete. Perhaps a plank on frame Haven 12 ½. When your done you would have a fine day sailor to get you thru the next decade while you build your dreamboat. And much of what you need to learn to build the big boat the Haven can teach you. Sources for lumber, hardware, fasteners etc. as well as the how tos.
It is difficult for many of us to find mentors that we can apprentice to. So we turn to each other.
I wish you the best in your endeavors.

[Northernguy59]

Great comments from you guys. I have already thought I should get a smaller boat in the mean time and while I build. I posted this to get responses from you guys. Ive thought about alot of the things you have said prior to posting my original message, so I feel I am being pragmatic and I do relize the comitment of resorces and time. Thats why I wanted to get your opinions to see if I was on the right or wrong track. remember the old saying "if you dont ask you dont get". Thanks again

[Wild Dingo]

As the other guy... sigh :rolleyes:

In my veiw both Dave and Bobs comments are pretty tame compared to other comments theyve made over similar sorts of questions at other times here. :eek: ... but they are words of wisdom laced with experience

Northern... one suggestion if I may mate?... put your mouse and keyboard to use... and use the "search" button at the top and search through the postings already here in the archives... theres a wealth of knowledge in there on a real wide variety of topics.

Get the books suggested... build the smaller boats while getting ready for the big one, ignore the nay sayers and go with what you can learn garner and understand from those who know... try to find someone near you who KNOWS what hes doing if you can... if not then heres a good place to find some of them.

And for petes sake be bloody careful when you ask your questions!... and be prepared to cop it in the chops when someone thinks that in their opinion your a bloody idiot... it is after all only their opinion.

Some folks here are affected strongly with that cudgwhateveritismon word and get cranky as hell at times... try to be a duck... let it wash over you before you let fly back... even choosing your words carefully can work against you at times... and you can tend to loose what... till that time... have been good mates here by doing that... or so Ive found.

The guys and the girls here :cool: have a great wealth of knowledge and experience Bob and Dave up at the top of the list.

Dream on!

Take it easy
Shane

[ 05-25-2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Northernguy59]

Shane, Thanks for your comments. I,ve done alot of searching here within this forum and lots of other internet sorces. There is so much information available today, a guy like myself wants to "sort of wheat from the chaff" so to speak, hence my post on here. The questions was left open ended and I do belief I found the answer to my original question. I dont know the expeiance from anyone on this forum but I am smart enuogh to know a cratfsmans answer from a novice. My hope is that the comments and wisdom will keep coming. I guess I did,nt know this forum was so lively, Im thrilled. As long as it,s constructive critism based on personal experiance and sond reasoning I,m all for it. I thank you all for the time you have taken to respond to my post. I,ve got alot of other question for you all. Now that I kind of now how it goes in this forum, I,ll be alot more specific in my future posts. I respect each and every reply to my questions. Thanks Again

[Memphis Mike]

I suggest reading the book "Wooden Boats"
by Michael Ruhlman. Not only is it a good
read but it will give you an idea on
what a project of this size entails.

What Cleek and Dave said is no exaggeration.

[Bruce Taylor]

I respect each and every reply to my questionsYou certainly should respect Bob's and Dave's replies, but if I should happen to express an opinion about bluewater boats just smile indulgently and change the subject.

[ken mcclure]

Heh-heh. Regardless of what you hear, building a boat, or a house, or a window box is mainly a matter of cutting and shaping pieces of wood to fit - one at a time. You start with the first piece and finish with the last piece.

The difficulties arise when you have to start shaping pieces that are odd shapes, and making joints that are odd joints. Then you have to get into joining dissimilar materials. Then you have to get into plumbing. And wiring. And welding. And rigging. And so on.

The danger is that you can get into a large project, see that you are continually being stumped and give up on the whole thing months or years and many dollars later.

This is where this group is so beneficial. There are a lot of people who can get you through the stumpings and help you with decisions.

Sounds like you have the time, most of the tools, the shop, the budget and the patience.

Oh, the most important tool is a digital camera so you can post pictures of your progress.

Go for it!

[Northernguy59]

I feel the same. Now that I think you guys have an idea of what I,m after. Point me to some resources including designs and designers. I have spoken to quite a few and have looked at many. I have narrowed my choices but I,m still open and have not made a final decision. I have resourced many materials and there readiness, not all but some. I think I have been conservative in my thoughts up to this point on the magnitude of this project. Help me move forward and point me in some directions. Thats why I,m here guys, to get your help.

In my mind "construction" starts way before the actual physical part. It starts with the design, planning, budgeting, material selections, prices and so on. This forum is a huge resource and a wealth of information for the "greenhorn" like myself. I have accomplished many things in my life. Reading a book is education, reading the right books is important. No need in reading a bunch of "chaff".

Thanks Again !!

[Dave Fleming]

Oh bother, it was Alan Hyde who generously sent me that photo copy.
Thanks again ALAN. smile.gif

[Northernguy59]

Dave, RGM and Bob. I sent you guys an "Instant Message"

[ken mcclure]

My favorites are Paul Gartside (http://www.gartsideboats.com) and Lyle Hess.

There are some designers in the UK that have pilot cutter designs. Do a search on "pilot cutter" in the WB Online Index and you'll get a bunch of references to check out.