View Full Version : removing antifouling
What ways are there for removing the antifouling from a timber carvel yacht, the type used is International Coppercote.
08-31-2000, 09:42 AM
First, how long has it been out of the water and how many coats of paint are you removing?
Cedar Hill Boatworks
08-31-2000, 02:22 PM
TSP, highly concentrated, scotchbrite grill scrubber pad, foul weather gear, good rubber gauntlet style gloves.
I tried this pretty much on a lark this past spring in order to avoid sanding. It worked like a charm. I will never sand again (he says hopefully). Honest to god, the paint washed off.
I dissolved 2 1/2 pounds of TSP in five gallons of warm water. Rinse the srubber pad in another bucket of water. Hose down the area you are working and scrub away. It's magic.
08-31-2000, 05:57 PM
Aren't there some, er, environmental concerns with just washing off the antifouling like that? I know most boatyards have to take all kinds of precautions when sanding.
How much paint is on? I don't know, it has never been removed since 1974, it's varies from very thin to very thick. The boat has been out of the water for about 6 weeks.
08-31-2000, 07:11 PM
What is TSP, sounds like black magic. Speaking of which, locally we just hire a boatboy for about US$5.00 per day and let him at it with a bunch of sandpaper. There's some more fundamental stuff than environmental issues to think about in PNG.
08-31-2000, 08:41 PM
There are also environmental issues with TSP. It's become seemingly such a "hot" topic of late I started looking into it today. When I get some solid info I will pass it along. Phosphates have very detrimental effects on ponds and lakes by stimulating weed growth, thereby leading to eutrophication of the lake or pond.
I did a search for TSP on forum today as I remember TSP coming up a while ago and one party noting that it should not be dumped onto the ground. Can't find it. In fact, despite showing 40 hits, most of them did not mention TSP.
Try STP, Sodium Tri Phosphate, seems it was an additive to washing powder at one time, I think some dishwashers still use it.
09-01-2000, 09:22 AM
It should be dry enough to sand off. I use a heavy duty Black & Decker auto buffer with a 8" stick on hard pad and 24 grit 3M discs from Matto's auto paint supply. The low RPM's of the buffer allows removal without over heating the paint and making it melt into solid chunks clogging the sanding disc. I wear a full face sheild and old clothes and the work area is covered with tarps. When removing heavy coats I'll use a 2" chisel first and then clean up the surface and stubborn spots with the buffer. Its time consuming and dirty work. Good luck
Vacuume up the paint from off the tarps. I use a shop vac with paper linerbag, so when the bag is full, it goes in the dumpster.
[ 01-27-2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]
Cedar Hill Boatworks
09-01-2000, 09:42 AM
I have loittle trouble with letting TSP run off into the storm sewer system. It is highly dilute by the time it hits the sound, I left the hose running on the ground at all times. I don't think it can be any more or less polluting than sanding, or powerwashing or sandblasting. All the tarps in the world will only contain a fraction of the dust from dusting. The paint that wasshes into the sewer is no more toxic than the paint that is released daily from all of our boats as they slough their way through the water. I am not in favor of dmaging the ecosystem of the waters that I sail in, but we make an impact in so many ways with our boats that I think its a trade off that works about even.
Theres nothing magic about it, the TSP dissolves the paint, in my case Petit hard ablative. The scotchbrite pad doesn't clog like sandpaper, there is no dust, and the surface is perfectly prepared for the new paint. No one at the yard said anything, plenty of people asked me what I was using, and I know someone else will be trying it this spring. Keep in mind that the yard has grit and oil separators on the storm water catch basisns, as is required around here, and as I said the hose was running constanly diluting the stream that made it to the basin.
09-01-2000, 12:38 PM
In response to the environmental issue - with both the copper from the paint and the phosphate it is a question on how much material you generate and the location of the disposal.
Phosphate can be a problem when you are talking large quantities entering more or less directly into bodies of water. The problem came to a head in the 60's and 70's. The phosphate came from several sources:
-Fertilizer - The second number in a fertilizer designation refers to its phosphate content, so runoff from farms and lawns has a high phosphate content.
-Detergents - Sodium phosphates were use in large quantities for pH adjustment. Most of the phosphate has been removed from laudry detergents but dishwashing detergents still use primarily TSP.
-People - The old problem. We have a fair amount of phosphorus in our diet. A phosphoric acid content of 4% is what gives Coca Cola its bite (at one time Coke was the biggest user of phosphoric acid in the world).
Better wastewater treatment systems have done much to limit the phosphate problem, particularly land application of treated waste-water rather than dumping it in the nearest body of water. Therefore I wouldn't worry about the small amount used to clean a boat in the back yard.
Copper is the other item of concern. It is a heavy metal and in quantity is toxic. However copper is also a trace metal required by both plants and animals. So this is a case where the saying "The solution to polution is dilution", is valid. A boatyard would have more of a problem than a backyard because of the large volume of material in a rather small area. The other factor to consider is the solubility of the various chemical forms of copper in the sanding dust. If the TSP hull cleaning method is used the runoff would be alkaline which should result in limited copper solubility.
01-27-2004, 09:15 AM
Where does one buy TSP? Any suggestions?
01-27-2004, 11:51 AM
You can buy TSP at any paint supply store.
The yard probably won't let you do that if they know you're doing it as the toxics in the paint go [literally] down the drain. The yard is likely to get in trouble with the environmental enforcement types.
Better off (and faster!) to use propane torches with a flame spreader and scrapers. Easier cleanup, too. It's hard to beat a broom.
And, unlike sanding, you won't have to shroud the boat in poly sheeting for dust control.
The flame spreader gives you a broad, flat flame rather than a highly concentrated flame. Head the paint until it bubbles and then scrape it off. Just keep it moving—you don't want to burn the wood, just soften and blister the paint so it will come off.
Wear a good respirator with a filter stack intended to protect against exposure to organic vapors and toxic metals: you'll be getting copper and likely lead vapors as well.
Gloves, too.—Paint with a high copper content tends to get very hot and very sticky when torched. Nasty burns result when the stuff affixes itself to your skin.
Ford, There are several ways, done em asll but never used TSP, Trisodiumphosphate except as a boiler compound and for cleaning surfaces to be painted to clean and not sand and rinse. Some paint stores sell TSP "containing no phosphates" some chemical magic I presume, so read the labels.
The burning method requires propane, torches, space suit, scrapers like un-bent garden hoes and fresh air supply masks. AF paints back when have/had some very toxic elements.
Jasco or some such, paint remover and a cheap by the hour teenager, who's parents dont mind if his life is shortened a bit, perhaps one that smokes.
There is a fellow in the bay area that has a setup using an air DA with a wetsanding disc and a continuous water supply, charges a lot by the hourplus materials. An expensive setup to say the least.
Waste Marine has a product called PeelOff or some such, just for bottom paint, look in their catalog. Home Depot sells the same thing but the manufacturer says don't use this on boat bottoms as it's formulated for paint removal on Victorian restorations and the like. This PeelOff is slathered on with a consistancy of mayonaise, looks like un-frozen snot. Takes a little practice, but is easily contained and advertises environmentally safe etc. After the thickest slathering possible, DONT brush it out, it's covered with a plastic membrane and allowed to work, half to two days, planning and progress checks required. Not cheap, but very effective and friendly, but dont spill any on your truck.
Have used all of the above methods except the TSP, and if I ever had to to this nasty job again, would recommend/use the PeelOff hands down. Very economical, efficient, and friendly, compared to the other above methods. Have only used TCP as mentioned though. Luck, cbob
01-27-2004, 12:29 PM
I spoke with someone from International paints (Interlux in the US) recently about this. The man claimed that it should be sanded wet and wear a respirator.
To be sure I would contact a maker of anti-fouling and ask for advice.
[ 01-27-2004, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Otter ]
01-27-2004, 12:45 PM
On my plastic boat - I sand with a 6" RO sander with a vacuum hose connection to a shop vac.
No dust on the ground, no dust in the air, no runnoff, no chemicals. Really don't need a mask outdoors - a good sander and vac pulls all the dust in..
It amazes me that people in the yard sand their boats and get covered head to toe in blue dust. Tyvek suit and all. Hook up a vacuum - it's too simple. It really ticked me off the year I finished waxing the boat and the guy next to me showed up and dry sanded his bottom on a breezy day and covered my boat in blue dust that got rained on.. yay...
The other thing it does is keeps the paper cleaner, cooler and it last longer because it doesn't load up.
I do not know if there are special considerations for a wood boat in this instance..
01-27-2004, 12:55 PM
This PeelOff is slathered on with a consistancy of mayonaise, looks like un-frozen snot.
As opposed to that pesky frozen snot!
we see so much of....
01-27-2004, 01:32 PM
I use a different set up for fiberglass boats than for wooden ones. I've got the BOSCH RO duct taped to a shop-vac and to take down to gel coat may use as heavy as 40 grit.
BUT for a larger wooden boat, torches will cost too much $ in propane cans. Same as "PEELAWAY".
Peelaway is very exspensive and you really can't use it on wood. For fiberglass, you slather it on and then lay into the slather the paper membrane that keeps the slathered goo from drying out. It doesn't work chemically anymore once it drys out. THEN you take a sharp putty knife and scrape the loosened paint off. This works fine on a super smooth gelcoat surface where the sharp knife slides over the gelcoat sepperating the paint from gelcoat....but on a wood boat, the putty knife and/or razor blade digs into the wood too often. You really can't use peelaway on a wooden boat.
[ 01-27-2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]
01-27-2004, 02:28 PM
Nicholas got it right. Torch and scraper no doubt. Your can clean up and dispose of the scapings properly.
01-27-2004, 03:02 PM
Phil Young wrote:
.........Speaking of which, locally we just hire a boatboy for about US$5.00 per day and let him at it with a bunch of sandpaper.... Those wages are awfully low !
Are you sure that you have not dropped a zero or two ?
01-27-2004, 04:40 PM
The Tv show "This Old House" had a program where they removed all the paint from a really big wood house using a spray on remover developed for the aircraft industry. It worked very well and was very easy to use. Perhaps a note to Norm will get you the name of the remover.
Allen, "PeelAway is very expensive and you really can't use it on wood", I fail to understand this comment, unless you have all the time in the world and I thought wooden boats were what we were talking about here. My comments are from experience with wood boats, and would appreciate an elaboration on your experience with the above mentioned methods. cbob
01-27-2004, 10:33 PM
No problem cbob,
BUT first...read the whole post. It explains why "peelaway" can't be used on wooden boat bottoms (sure you could use it but then, you can shove spaghetti up your nose....BUT WHY when there are better methods). BUT TO PARAPHRASE.....
you need to scrape off the peel away chemical, seperating it from the hull (either fiberglass gelcoat or wood)and you need to use a sharpened putty knife or my favorite, a razor blade held in a gasket scrapper. BOTH of which will dig into the wood. They will both catch at the edges.
AND while on the subject....do you really want to be breathing those toxic fumes that you've just cooked with your propane torch? AND unless you have a sealed suit with fresh air being pumped in...thats exactly what you will be breathing.
MY experience is from both wood and fiberglass. Each spring I bottom paint no less than 30 boats. I've rebuilt 4 Egg Harbors and have done countless Chris-Craft repairs....from keel replacements to cabinetry. I can't tell you how many wooden boat bottoms I've painted.
click on " projects / restorations ".....my pictures there are 4 years old.
[ 01-27-2004, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]
01-27-2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Allen Foote:
AND while on the subject....do you really want to be breathing those toxic fumes that you've just cooked with your propane torch? AND unless you have a sealed suit with fresh air being pumped in...thats exactly what you will be breathing.Not if you're wearing a proper respirator…which you will be regardless of whether your dry sanding, wet sanding, using paint stripper or a torch/scraper.
If you care about your body and lungs.
Do you really want to be breathing
(A) sanding dust from bottom paint?
(B) methylene chloride fumes? (not recommended.)
(C) fumes from heating the paint w/a torch?
If you don't wear the respirator you will be.
Check in with your local industrial safety/supply house and work out (1) the proper respirator for the job, and (2) the proper filter stack for the job.
WRT to technique…
I suggest trying all of them.</font> Get the smallest possible Peel-Away package.</font> Get some ordinary methylene chloride paint stripper</font> Get a R/O sander and 36-grit disk and a good HEPA shop vac.</font> Get a propane torch and some good scrapers (I suggest Pro-Prep brand).</font>Strip a square yard or so with each technique suggested. Clean up afterwards.</font> Note the time per unit area, including wait, strip and cleanup time, time required to neutralize the stripper, etc.</font> Compute the cost per unit area (including cleanup, neutralizing, etc.)</font> Take especial note of the pleasantness/disgust/potential-hazard factor of each of the techniques suggested.</font>Factor all of these into the equation.
I'm fairly certain that, all things considered (speed, cost, hazards, smell, time/cost of cleanup, keeping the yard manager (not to mention SWMBO) happy, etc.)… wooding your hull with a torch and scraper will come out on top as the most cost-effective technique.
By a large margin.
Fire is your friend.
01-27-2004, 11:14 PM
No it won't.
and it is obvious to me Nicholas, that you've never stripped a large wooden boat bottom. AND it is also obvious that you have never tried 24 grit on a slow speed "side-winder"
A "proper respirator"....they differ from those that handle air borne particular and those that handle fumes and chemicals. SO I REPEAT myself......unless you have an air tight suit and pump in fresh air, you WILL BE breathing the cooked off toxic fumes.
[ 01-28-2004, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]
01-28-2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Allen Foote:
A "proper respirator"....they differ from those that handle air borne particular and those that handle fumes and chemicals. SO I REPEAT myself......unless you have an air tight suit and pump in fresh air, you WILL BE breathing the cooked off toxic fumes.Exactly my point: it is incumbent upon the operator to choos a proper respirator by talking to one or more of an industrial hygienist, a good indstrial safety supplier, etc., in order select an appropriate filter stack..
You picks your respirator and you picks your filter stack to suit the hazards to which you're exposed in terms of:
1. what you're going to be exposed to, and
2. concentration of exposure,
3. duration of exposure,
4. likely lifetime exposure.
For example, an asbestos miner who spends 2000+ hours per year breathing relatively high concentrations of the stuff (and is likey to do so for a long (decades) period of time) has considerably different needs WRT respiratory protection than does a homeowner who want to do a one-time removal of asbestos siding from the house he just bought.
You can, if you like, go to 3M's web site (http://www.3m.com/market/safety/ohes2/html/respirators.html) and run through their expert system (http://www.3m.com/market/safety/ohes2/html/software.html) and figure out exactly what sorts of respiratory protection might be appropriate for a specific case (given potential exposures, in what concentrations, over time)…which might well work out to be a spacesuit with an external, positive-pressure filtered air supply— do you spend a lot of time in an anyhydrous ammonia atmosphere?)
For example, assuming exposure to copper fumes, lead and inorganic tin at levels of 5mg/m^3, the suggestion is a fullface 7800-series respirator
with appropriate filters. A long way from your "nightmare scenario" of a spacesuit/external air supply.
3M is, I'm sure, more than willing to supply such safety gear…with their lawyers even more willing to recommend such. Liability is such a b**ch :D )
But they don't, because it's not appropriate.
1. the requestor doesn't do this sort of work 8h/day, 5d/week, 50 weeks/year, and
2. the likely site is at the boatyard and out-of-doors (ergo, well-ventilated),
And Even this is probably overkill: a half-face mask fitted with an organic vapor cartridge stacked with a toxic dusts cartridge is probably sufficient.
01-28-2004, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Allen Foote:
No it won't.
and it is obvious to me Nicholas, that you've never stripped a large wooden boat bottom.I warrant you're wrong.
AND it is also obvious that you have never tried 24 grit on a slow speed "side-winder"It's true.
And it's equally obvious you've never tried a torch and scraper: they're faster and easier with less opportunity for damaging the hull.
Any sander still makes dust. Toxic dusts are first and foremost, deadly, and second, a nightmare to keep clean and to clean up.
OSHA regulations require (if you're working around lead dust/fumes, as is more than likely if you're wooding a boat), that the worksite be cleaned daily by vacuuming with a HEPA (0.3 micron and larger) vacuum cleaner. HEPA filters aren't cheap at $20 + per pop. And they clog easily.
I believe that a torch and scraper is faster, cheaper, cleaner, less hazardous and easier to clean up after than just about any other technique.
Peel-Away (http://www.peelaway.com/) is also expensive at approximately $1.50+ per square foot. Not to mention the down time waiting for the paint stripper to, as it were, dry. It's probably got an edge if you plan to keep the item to be stripped bright, though: it's hard to prevent the occasional scorch mark with a torch.
Propane is both faster and cheaper, though.
But reasonable men may, reasonably, disagree.
01-28-2004, 05:13 AM
I do almost all of my stripping with a Milwaukee hot air gun and ProPrep scrapers. Even a big boat goes pretty fast once you get into the rythm/zen of it. I use chemicals (Star Products) for areas that can't be scraped.
I used TSP once to remove latex paint around the house, and it worked great. I don't think the yard would let me use it on my bottom paint.
just been there done that. I finished stripping down a my 48' cray boat back to bare timber. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/p8029055d06d309a3992a2bda1a8a8688/fb773db9.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/p94e2f630e946cb0831b78ec055fbe389/fb774101.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/p166513b6a66d613665afde176da5805a/fb7739e1.jpg
Now i can see that you're a good aussie lad and the best product for removing antifoul is available right here in autralia, it actually comes from W.A. and it's called "PETER G's stripper for antifoul 39 Delawney st Balcatta Western Australia ph.(08)92401717
fax.(08)93417675 unreal stuff, comes in buckets of thick jelly like substance. Now it's caustic based so make sure you wear your protective gear, anyway you wet down your hull in the evening and put the stuff on with a trowell or just with rubber gloves like i did, sort of like putting jam on bread, leave over night and just come back next morning and pressure wash it off. It comes off like bits of paper, now if you've got 20 coates of antifoul like me it might take two go's but it saves a lot of hard work.
01-28-2004, 08:47 AM
Yes Nicholas, I own a Milwalkee heat gun. And I stripped a small portion of the topsides (freeboard) of a 34'Chris-Craft with a torch. Then another boat owner graciously walked over with a side winder (about 20lbs worth in 1979) and explained why and how to use it. BUT we are talking BOTTOM PAINT!
Use your heat gun all you want for your topside....but only somebody that has never used a side winder would torch off his bottom paint.....1 heated inch at a time.
This is an old discussion here on the forum.
NO...I don't have all day....I have too many other projects to do to spend all day huffing toxic fumes and tripping on bottom paint.
Nicholas...nice picture of a 3M full face, I own 2. It is the filters that attach to this that are for organic matter or fumes. HOWEVER--Y O U R--S K I N--A L S O--A B S O R B S--T O X I C---F U M E S !!!
Thanks MIC....now we Americans know what we miss out on due to the EPA.
[ 01-28-2004, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]
Allen, Rarding the PeelAway tecnique, I suspect you may have missed my comment,IT TAKES A LITTLE PRACTICE. Slather it on, cover it up, and wait for all the paint covered to be softened, this may take a few hours to a day and a half, which is why the softening process needs to be watched, to establish the best "soaking time". Once it's dry, its too late. My tools are regular scrapers, sharpened and pulled in a non aggresive manner, letting the product do it's stuff, no bad gouging to speak of, you don't have be that careful, just the right tools and technique. Once the "soak" timing is established, a plan can move forward, removing the softened paint while later applied areas are being softened.
I've seen jobs where the inexperienced have coated and covered the entire bottom, all at once, to find out it takes a lot longer to scrape off the old, and most of the lot sets up and dries, before it can be worked.
Also,if the paint is burned, or chemically removed with remover or PeelAway, the resulting surface will still need some kind of finish sanding.
Around here most yards don't do burning, but those that do, set up properly, useing a two man crew. To burn off, say, a thirty foot wood sailboat, an area that would take a gallon and a half or two of A.F. for one coat, will take a day and a half, or more, which comes up to be a couple of thousand bucks, not including environmental surcharges and sanding. The approach of a boatyard to this type of task may be quite different than that of the D.I.Y. boat owner, which is my point of view, and I understand that.
My experience with PeelAway on a 500 sq. ft. 28 ft. waterline sailboat took about 25 Liters of PeelAway, about 360 bucks worth,comes out to be a little less than a dollar a foot, including 8.8% tax.
My comment about experience, was in regard to the use of the product not in other non relevant areas. My first experience doing this, was at Wilmington Boat Works, in 1947, disc sanding Tripple C off a 22 ft. galvanized Lifeboat, a day in bed and red eyes for a week, copper,zinc, and arsenic dust, no air masks and space suits in those days. Since then I have built ships, repaired ships, sailed ships and drydocked Hundreds, from pee pots to super container ships, including 6 years in the yard and 25 as an owners representative. I havn't seen every kind of screw up possible, but at least my share, sorry too, about the painter with complex carbohydrate nostrilitus, havn't seen that one yet, either.
And this subject is somthing rairly considered, when putting the paint on. The AF paint manufacturers recommend two coats, which will reduce the time between removals to be half, whatever method is used, Go Figure? cbob
01-29-2004, 08:51 PM
yep, $5.00 per day. real cheap. That's what I meant about there being other issues in PNG. You can also still get real antifouling, with real poison, that actually keeps stuff off your boat. 2 coats go for up to 5 years in the water!.
01-29-2004, 11:02 PM
cbob, sounds like you've spent your share of time around the yards. smile.gif
My experience with "PeelAway" on a wooden boat,has been thankfully, straightening out a boat owner induced mess. You left out the point of absorbtion of the chemicals into the wood.
[ 01-30-2004, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]
Allen, After the peel off, clean up sand with 220 on a Bosh DA, rinse and wipe clean with wet towels. No apparent adhesion problems, Woolsey Neptune, after 3 to 5 years, whats the scoop on the absorption of chemicals?
Anyway so far nothing here on sand blasting, sand washing, that jellcoat removal machine , or that WB piece way back, about a guy in the Puget Sound Area, with arms like my legs, who could do fir planked fishboats in day with 24 grit on a big angle disc sander? cbob
01-30-2004, 04:23 PM
Goodness gracious cbob....do you remember that piece!?! lol....he got what? $50 to strip 1 side. Hey, thanks for the memorey bubble.
I'm sorry cbob, but I've never worked on a wood boat that could be bottom sanded with 220. smile.gif We are talking below the waterline here....
Sounds like you've had better experiences with it. Perhaps you know some trade tricks or 2 that you could pass on. smile.gif
[ 01-30-2004, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]
01-31-2004, 03:47 PM
Peel Away is not what you are looking for. There is a much better product. Its called Back to Nature. Its totally safe and can be applied with a chip brush. There are different strengths that basically correspond with the speed inwhich it eats through the paint. it will stop at the wood, so you don't have to worry about leaving it on too long.
BACK TO NATURE AQUA-STRIP GALLON
MARINE PAINT & VARNISH REMOVER,
i found it at www.jamestowndistributors.com (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com) when i called and asked for peelaway, they convinced me that this was the stuff. and it is. You can also tear through the paint with an 8 inch sander, a fullface respirator, and a paintsuit. But the stripper works, with much less work!!!
01-31-2004, 04:37 PM
Well, here are two more methods that I've tried:
1. Sand washing. Specialist contractor. Works, but IMHO brutalises the wood - in my case teak, but the grain was badly raised i.e. the surface of the wood was eroded.
2. What I did last time. Sandvik scraper (heavy tungsten carbide blade) dust mask and overalls. I found I could take the dry antifouling off in flakes without doing much damage to the primer coat underneath it. It took a bit of time but I would use the same method again.
04-13-2007, 03:25 PM
Has anyone use a high speed shaver? Marine Shaver Pro from American International Tool Industries has a product that can be adjusted to take off paint and vaccum it up in one step. http://www.paintshaver.com/marineshaver.html
04-13-2007, 04:33 PM
DANG, that last little toy sure looks neat, wonder how fast you go through the blades?
04-15-2007, 02:07 PM
Aren't there some, er, environmental concerns with just washing off the antifouling like that? I know most boatyards have to take all kinds of precautions when sanding.
Yes that would never fly at my DryDock. Big Fines. No Water allowed!
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