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johnw
10-25-2008, 09:21 PM
A television newswoman asked Joe Biden if Obama is a Marxist. He got miffed. But it occurred to me that, although I know I'm not a Marxist, I don't know this about my fellow forumites. So I'm asking. Are you a Marxist? And if you say you are not, can you prove you are not? I'm the judge here. I'll decide whose proof stands up.

And does anyone have good text for a loyalty oath?

titanicslim
10-25-2008, 09:34 PM
Also, we should do a survey of how many of us live in a town that features a statue of Lenin :eek:

LeeG
10-25-2008, 09:46 PM
I went to his grave just for the heck of it.

here's the 'interview' with Biden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKP14SRpQFM&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/25/164858/24/604/642158

JimD
10-25-2008, 09:50 PM
A television newswoman asked Joe Biden if Obama is a Marxist...

What a stupid question. While she's at it why not ask him if he's a Nazi, too?

PatCox
10-25-2008, 09:52 PM
Marx's system of analysing history through the lens of class conflict has its uses. Class is a loaded term, its better to think of it as a system of analyzing history by concentrating on the differing interests of different groups within the existing economic and political system.

But am I a Marxist in the sense of believing his predictions for the future based on his analysis, and his prescription for a perfect society? No, not at all, its exactly and completely as unworkable and impossible as is the belief that unfettered capitalism, through the magic of the invisible hand, will produce the best society. Both ideas are fantasies.

Tom Montgomery
10-25-2008, 09:58 PM
Here is a loyalty oath for all the wankers out there to recite:

"I swear (or affirm) that I do not advise, advocate or teach, and have not advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Government of the United States of America and that I am not now and have not been or become a member of or affiliated with any group, society, association, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means of the Government of the United States of America."

Anyone who questions my loyalty is welcome to come visit me here in Louisville to discuss it.

Flying Orca
10-25-2008, 10:02 PM
I think it kind of depends on what you mean by "Marxist". In his own lifetime, talking about what people had done with his ideas, Marx himself said, "If that is what it means to be a Marxist, then I am not a Marxist."

johnw
10-25-2008, 10:07 PM
Here is a loyalty oath for all the wankers out there to recite:

"I swear (or affirm) that I do not advise, advocate or teach, and have not advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Government of the United States of America and that I am not now and have not been or become a member of or affiliated with any group, society, association, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means of the Government of the United States of America."

Anyone who questions my loyalty is welcome to come visit me here in Louisville to discuss it.

You want us to recite that and perjure ourselves? So far, I've accepted that Marx was not a Marxist, on the grounds that he would know. The rest of you are still suspect.

johnw
10-25-2008, 10:09 PM
What a stupid question. While she's at it why not ask him if he's a Nazi, too?

She interviewed McCain, as well. I guess the toughest question for him was why he wasn't using the Ayers attack line more.

Dave Gray
10-25-2008, 10:20 PM
I confess. I am a Marxist, a communist, a humanist, and any other ist or ism you want to throw my way. How can I disprove that I never at one time dreamed of the perfect world order in my darkest thoughts? What would stand up in the folly that is the world court called the Bilge?

Not that I ever have read Das Kapital, mind you.

Dave Gray
10-25-2008, 10:22 PM
I doomed myself. I actually know the title of a book by Marx. Let the accusations begin!

Flying Orca
10-25-2008, 10:23 PM
Not that I ever have read Das Kapital, mind you.

I had a beautiful first (English) edition of Capitol in three volumes and didn't make it halfway through the first volume. It's no wonder his ideas didn't take off until he hooked up with Freddie Engels - now that man could write.

johnw
10-25-2008, 10:24 PM
Sarah Palin today:

"See, under a big government, more tax agenda, what you thought was yours would really start belonging to somebody else, to everybody else. If you thought your income, your property, your inventory, your investments were, were yours, they would really collectively belong to everybody. Obama, Barack Obama has an ideological commitment to higher taxes, and I say this based on his record... Higher taxes, more government, misusing the power to tax leads to government moving into the role of some believing that government then has to take care of us. And government kind of moving into the role as the other half of our family, making decisions for us. Now, they do this in other countries where the people are not free. Let us fight for what is right. John McCain and I, we will put our trust in you."

Dave Gray
10-25-2008, 10:25 PM
OMG! It's Ronald Reagan in skirts!

Tom Montgomery
10-25-2008, 10:33 PM
Now, they do this in other countries where the people are not free.

Wonder what countries she had in mind?

Flying Orca
10-25-2008, 10:36 PM
Let's hope she didn't mean Canada. If I'm interpreting mdh properly, that might be grounds for an invasion.

'Course when the invasion comes, it'll probably be over water rather than ideology.

Duncan Gibbs
10-25-2008, 10:38 PM
An excellent answer Pat! (post #5) I would say that I'm a Marxist insofar as I use Marxist forms of analysis in a whole raft of spheres from the political to mundane management tasks. I guess I would think of Marxist analysis as the first type of examination of sustainabilty: What does it take for a situation or economy to sustain itself and continue developing and what does it take to make it fall apart? What stages transform the superstructure of an economy (changes to the way things happen) and what stages transform the base of an economy (changes to the reason why things happen)? It should be noted that Marx's main output, Das Capital, is really all about capitalism. While it is a loaded document today, it was part of a whole range of responses, both literary and practical, to the desperate state and plight of the lower classes. One only has to use the descriptor Dickensian as a perfect substitute for the way Marx documented the varying types of existences, from abject poverty on a massive scale to the aristocratic arrogance and obscenely luxurious lifestyle of the ruling classes.

OTOH, just because one may use Marxist types of analysis, does not mean that one is a communist. That, kind of, naive pamphlet was hijacked by history and as a result and my views on communism and hard left socialism are well described by Orwell in Animal Farm.

I believe, as I've stated in my New Economy thread, we are experiencing a change in the base of the global economy. One thing that is significant about this election for the whole World and not just the US, is that who takes power will indicate whether the seismic shifts in flows and losses of capital that we are experiencing will be well managed and as smooth as possible or repeatedly ignored and made that much harder. How capitalism is fundamentaly transformed, replaced altogether or simply shattered with nothing to replace it in the short term will be the main and underlying issue at stake in this election.

Other than that I'm really a cappo' with a strong sense of democracy, justice and just doing things the right way in the first bloody place!! ;):D

johnw
10-25-2008, 10:39 PM
Wonder what countries she had in mind?

Cuba, for one. I understand there's a military installation on the southeast side where stuff has been happening that will curl your hair.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=guantanamo%20bay&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl

L.W. Baxter
10-25-2008, 10:44 PM
I wouldn't belong to any ideology that would have me as a member.

Cuyahoga Chuck
10-25-2008, 10:46 PM
I bought a copy of "Das Capital" about 45 years ago. I can see it in my bookcase right now. I think I made it all the way to page three.
And having been around for so long I recall there was more than one kind of Marxist. After killing off their opposition they proceded to try and kill off each other.

Cuyahoga Chuck
10-25-2008, 10:51 PM
Here is a loyalty oath for all the wankers out there to recite:

"I swear (or affirm) that I do not advise, advocate or teach, and have not advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Government of the United States of America and that I am not now and have not been or become a member of or affiliated with any group, society, association, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means of the Government of the United States of America."

Anyone who questions my loyalty is welcome to come visit me here in Louisville to discuss it.

We should be giving that oath to all them dudes in the Alaska Independence Party right now.

Lew Barrett
10-25-2008, 10:52 PM
My boat is mine. They will have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers. I've worked hard for it and I am not willing to share title.

In reality, when my fingers and the rest of me are cold and dead, my wife will give it to the first person who happens along and offers her half it's salvage value. Am I a Marxist?

pila
10-25-2008, 10:53 PM
The TV news types are really something aren't they. Maybe she was pushing for a promotion. If she was working for me I would fire her ass. Just stupid stuff.

johnw
10-25-2008, 10:58 PM
when I was in graduate school, I happened to know some Marxists. I was fascinated to learn that they had a complex social hierarchy. Vulgar Marxists, the fundamentalists of the lot, took the text literally, and were considered not very bright. Structuralists were old-fashioned and out of date. The elite -- perhaps in contrast to the vulgar Marxists, we should call them the effete Marxists -- studied the French theorists, and, following the example of the deconstructionists, refused to reveal their methods or be bound by bourgeois concepts like logic. An anthropologist could spend a lifetime doing kinship patterns.

elf
10-25-2008, 11:03 PM
When I was in college I had a great time in a film history class. We really especially enjoyed the Marxist movies - like Duck Soup and A Night at the Opera.

So I suppose you might consider me a Marxist.

Vince Brennan
10-25-2008, 11:20 PM
I'm more of a Ritz-ist than a Marx-ist, but chacun a son gout.

PeterSibley
10-26-2008, 05:59 AM
Wonder what countries she had in mind?
We hate you 'cos you're free .....well at least kind of heavily discounted right now .:D

PeterSibley
10-26-2008, 06:03 AM
I bought a copy of "Das Capital" about 45 years ago. I can see it in my bookcase right now. I think I made it all the way to page three.
And having been around for so long I recall there was more than one kind of Marxist. After killing off their opposition they proceded to try and kill off each other.

I think you're referring to Bolsheviks killing Mensheviks ,who appear to have been a lot friendlier ....and rapidly became extinct .

adampet
10-26-2008, 06:11 AM
I still have the T-shirt
http://www.northernsun.com/images/thumb/1030.jpg

Adam

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-26-2008, 06:47 AM
Neither a Marxist - nor for that matter a Spencerist.

Chris Coose
10-26-2008, 07:34 AM
She was looking to unhinge Biden. She didn't care about the answers.
Biden pissed on her leg.

Dan McCosh
10-26-2008, 08:10 AM
Might note at a self-proclaimed Nazi did run as a Republican for US Congress in 1994 from Macomb County, MI,--known as the home of Reagan Democrats. He got 38% of the vote.

gregleeber
10-26-2008, 08:35 AM
Look; its simple,

Obama has very little experience. He is so left that he is a bleeding hart liberal.

McCain on the other hand is truly the greatest living American hero alive. Folks if you havent read his book about his experince in North Korea go get it and read it before the election. He is a leader with integrity.

LeeG
10-26-2008, 08:42 AM
I like it simple,,,45,000 show up for Obama rally in New Mexicio, 1000 for McCain rally in New Mexico.

JimD
10-26-2008, 09:42 AM
Sarah Palin today:

"See, under a big government, more tax agenda, what you thought was yours would really start belonging to somebody else, to everybody else. If you thought your income, your property, your inventory, your investments were, were yours, they would really collectively belong to everybody. Obama, Barack Obama has an ideological commitment to higher taxes, and I say this based on his record... Higher taxes, more government, misusing the power to tax leads to government moving into the role of some believing that government then has to take care of us. And government kind of moving into the role as the other half of our family, making decisions for us. Now, they do this in other countries where the people are not free."

Palin is the ultimate Bilge troll.

JimD
10-26-2008, 10:19 AM
... "why has there never been a Marxist aesthetic?" .

Soviet Donald Trump says "Harrumph!"


http://www.toonpool.com/user/500/files/soviet_donald_trump_59905.jpg (javascript:void(img9.show());)

Keith Wilson
10-26-2008, 10:55 AM
Why has there never been a Marxist aesthetic? Doesn't Socialist Realism count? Hoo boy, if that isn't enough to make one renounce Marxism, I don't know what is.

http://members.surfeu.at/horvath/vladi.jpg

http://www.marxists.org/subject/art/visual_arts/painting/exhibits/socialist-realism/lenin-village.jpg

http://www.pingmag.jp/images/article/chineseposter13.jpg
:D:D:D

Scott Rosen
10-26-2008, 11:09 AM
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/73/039_69233~The-Marx-Brothers-Posters.jpg

The holy trinity of Marx.

David G
10-26-2008, 11:32 AM
here's the 'interview' with Biden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKP14SRpQFM&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/25/164858/24/604/642158

You know the old saw about there being no such thing as a stupid question. I kinda look at this interview that way. Those were agressive, even hostile questions. It doesn't hurt my feelings to see any candidate subjected to a good grilling. There are a significant minory of folks out there - in this polarized society we've created, and in this particularly polarized time of election - who believe the suppositions from which her questions sprang. I don't happen to, but I think it was a good forum to allow Biden to address these canards.

I wasn't sure if the lady was just trying to asking probing (though somewhat inept) questions - even if it meant she had to be obnoxious to do it... or, if she was a shill with an agenda. If what johnw says is true and she interviewed McCain with a bunch of creampuff questions, then I'd say the latter. If she was trying to rattle Biden, and get him to say something stupid, she failed. If fact, she highlighted some of the characteristics that made me prefer Biden over Palin as a VP candidate. He was knowledgable, reasonable, unflappable, yet assertive in his answers.


"Politics is made up largely of irrelevancies" -- Dalton Camp

Cuyahoga Chuck
10-26-2008, 12:18 PM
I think you're referring to Bolsheviks killing Mensheviks ,who appear to have been a lot friendlier ....and rapidly became extinct .

Actually, I was thinking about Leon Trostsky being assasinated even tho' he had fled to Mexico. And we know Uncle Joe eliminated so many people he had to have killed some card carriers in the process. Some were enemies because they were actual enemies and some were enemies because they were friends who seemed too ambitious. A lot of ordinary folks were eliminated because the local party apparchiks wanted to show Uncle Joe they were worthy of their pay.

johnw
10-26-2008, 12:36 PM
Look; its simple,

Obama has very little experience. He is so left that he is a bleeding hart liberal.

McCain on the other hand is truly the greatest living American hero alive. Folks if you havent read his book about his experince in North Korea go get it and read it before the election. He is a leader with integrity.

Okay, I'll put you down as a Marxist.

johnw
10-26-2008, 12:38 PM
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/73/039_69233~The-Marx-Brothers-Posters.jpg

The holy trinity of Marx.

By the way, I'm looking for a copy of The Sayings of Chairman Harpo (Beep!)

johnw
10-26-2008, 12:44 PM
Well, the Mensheviks were the hors d'oeuvre, followed by Stalin's purges and ending with Mao's "cultural revolution?"

No, I am not any sort of Marxist, I do not find Marx's theory of class conflict useful as a guide to history, sociology, linguistics or anything else.

As a young man, I read Popper and the exercise effected a complete cure.

Anyone who is tempted to find Marxism "handy" as an aid to thought in any discipline is invited to first ponder "why has there never been a Marxist aesthetic?" before continuing.

All that writing, and he never came up with a useful theory of value that you could build a society around. Hobbes was deeper:

"A man's value, or worth, is that which would be given for the use of his power, or his price."

It sounds philistine, but what was remarkable about it was that it was a radically subjective theory of value. He wanted to reinvent a system which would legitimize the rule of kings, but came out with a system of value that justified democracy and capitalism.

Wayne Jeffers
10-26-2008, 01:00 PM
I've always liked Marx.

Lennon, too.

http://www.marx-brothers.org/whyaduck/cards/abkhazia.jpg

I can remember when You Bet Your Life was originally broadcast, not in reruns. :D

Wayne

johnw
10-26-2008, 01:09 PM
I remember dinosaurs.

johnw
10-26-2008, 01:11 PM
http://www.poynterextra.org/Calvin/BC3.jpg

Calvin was no slouch.

Yeah, but Hobbes was the real philosopher. I have the hardcover boxed set of Calvin & Hobbes. Many many hours of pleasure, there.

johnw
10-26-2008, 01:36 PM
IIRC, Hobbes derived all of his philosophy from Calvin. ;)

No, that basking in the sun thing is definitely cat philosophy.

elf
10-26-2008, 01:37 PM
IIRC, Hobbes derived all of his philosophy from Calvin. ;)

I dunno. Are you sure? From Calvin?

http://moses.creighton.edu/harmless/bibliographies_for_theology/Images/YoungerCalvin.jpg

johnw
10-26-2008, 01:44 PM
elf, the word 'saturnine' comes to mind. And a quatrain from Khayyam:

Oh thou, who did with pitfall and with gin
beset the road I was to wander in
Whouldst thou with predestination round
enmesh, and then impute my fall to sin?

Keith Wilson
10-26-2008, 03:14 PM
Ugh (shudder). What an awful fellow. It even shows in the portrait.

I think Donn means the other Calvin.

Duncan Gibbs
10-26-2008, 03:43 PM
Well, the Mensheviks were the hors d'oeuvre, followed by Stalin's purges and ending with Mao's "cultural revolution?"

Ahem!! That was communism Andrew! Marxism is a completely different entity. See below.


No, I am not any sort of Marxist, I do not find Marx's theory of class conflict useful as a guide to history, sociology, linguistics or anything else.

As a young man, I read Popper and the exercise effected a complete cure.

Anyone who is tempted to find Marxism "handy" as an aid to thought in any discipline is invited to first ponder "why has there never been a Marxist aesthetic?" before continuing.

Does no-one listen??? Remember when Marx was writing and picture how YOU would react to the enormous horrors of the mill, the pit and the furnace. Marx was not a lone voice by ANY measure. It's as a result of his writing and that of quite a number of others efforts and correspondance that we enjoy such things as OH&S, minimum wages, maximum working hours and the like.

I'll say it again, Marxism is a form of ANALYSIS and nothing more. It actually did inform a good number of aesthetic movements, the primary one being constructivism, but surrealism and cubism were also heavily influenced by Marx's writings. Have you read Breton's Surrealist Manifesto Andrew?

The fundamental model of his analysis is still sound and used by successful capitalists everywhere. To dismiss Marx out of hand is to be naive at best and foolish at worst.

OTOH one can easily dismiss Heidegger.... :D;)

JimD
10-26-2008, 08:25 PM
I remember dinosaurs.

I heard you can see dinosaurs from Alaska.

Cuyahoga Chuck
10-26-2008, 08:46 PM
Precisely.

http://randomthoughtsofachronicthinker.files.wordpress.co m/2007/05/calvin2.jpg


Calvin

You young whippersnappers! Callvin and Hobbs is all sophistry. The real philosopher was POGO. He gave us real meat, like "we have seen the enemy and he is us" and "A fourteen dollar bill! What good is that?" And other pithy aphorisms.
Shape up!
There will be a pop quizz on Friday!

Keith Wilson
10-26-2008, 08:55 PM
Calvin & Hobbes is good; so is Pogo.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Pogo_-_Earth_Day_1971_poster.jpg

http://collateraldamage.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/pogo.gif

Flying Orca
10-26-2008, 08:58 PM
I don't know. I like what I've seen of Pogo, but Calvin and Hobbes set the bar. I despair of ever seeing its equal. Watterson struck the perfect balance between intellect and emotion, seriousness and whimsy, the mundane and the magical.

ChrisF
10-26-2008, 09:43 PM
I don't know. I like what I've seen of Pogo, but Calvin and Hobbes set the bar. I despair of ever seeing its equal. Watterson struck the perfect balance between intellect and emotion, seriousness and whimsy, the mundane and the magical.

Mought be a generationable thing, as Pogo would say. Pogo was a national treasure of his time. Mixed into the whimsy is pointed political satire of many of the now-forgotten issues and personalities of the day. Walt Kelly lampooned Joe McCarthy as the glowering "Simple J. Malarkey" when it was a dangerous thing to do, and gave comfort to a lot of folks who still remember.

Flying Orca
10-26-2008, 09:55 PM
One of the things I like about Watterson is that he took care to avoid satirizing contemporary issues and personalities. I think it makes his work more timeless in essence, even though I'm sure it will eventually appear dated just due to the inevitable temporo-cultural referents like car, building, and clothing design.

(edited to add:) I love that Walt Kelly lampooned McCarthy, though - I never knew that. That bastard McCarthy nearly ruined one of my favourite forms of art, that being American folk music.

johnw
10-26-2008, 11:52 PM
Kelly did both. The Jack Acid Society Black Book was great political satire but I liked best his comic verse with wonderful illustrations. If you run across the Pogo Peek-a-book or the Pogo Stepmother Goose, or Deck Us All with Boston Charlie, they are worth a look.

http://www.cartoonartoriginals.com/Misc/IMG_2794.jpg
http://www.cartoonartoriginals.com/Misc/IMG_2795.jpg
http://www.cartoonartoriginals.com/Misc//IMG_2796.jpg

He died too soon. Recon it was those big old seegars like Albert used to smoke.