Headsail sheet lead

[mdevour]

Thank you for continuing to consider my questions, folks. I am actually moving along on our Weekend Skiff's (http://www.eskimo.com/~mdevour/boatproject.html) rig, and it’ll be a much better design for your input.

One of the last considerations I have before I can complete the hull is the lead of the headsail sheets.

First off, I know I have to do some testing to get the sheet lead right. If I understand correctly, I want the sail to luff or stall over its entire length at the same sheet position or angle of attack. This means moving the fairlead position fore or aft until the entire luff behaves as a unit, and the upper and lower telltales tend to act together, right?

Could I honestly do that on a windy day with the boat on its trailer in a parking lot rather than out on the water? Put some phone books on top of one of the bunks to simulate heel angle? :cool:

Next question: We’re talking about a 16 foot plywood skiff with open inwales that’s going to spend at least some of its time being used for rowing and fishing. Ummm, what would you suggest for sheet fittings?

I can put a filler block between the inwale and the hull side for mounting whatever I use. Bolts can go through the block and inwale, with a backing plate as needed, and will be plenty strong.

The small boats I’ve been on had a simple cam-cleat with wire fairlead mounted at the rail. Whether worked by the helmsman or crew, a good lead to the cleat was within arm’s length from anywhere in the cockpit.

These fittings may be the most conspicuous piece of hardware related to the sailing rig that will be visible when the mast stays at home and we’re just rowing around. It would be nice if they could be easily removed, though that isn't urgent.

Any ideas, folks?

Thanks,

Mike

[ 04-02-2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: M. G. Devour ]

[Mad McGee]

I don't have nearly the experience or just plain sense of the rest of the people here...but a piece of advice (hard learned), and a silly suggestion.

If you raise sail on land be CAREFUL. My little 12 foot baby once got blown off its trailer in a parking lot, right on its side because:
a) it could not swivel to face into the wind as the wind changed (being attached to a trailer)

b) I had cleated the mainsheet in to keep the boom from flailing while I worked around the boat on the theory that "there is no way the wind can blow a boat off a trailer."

Silly suggestion: I am wondering if you could not fashion some kind of sheet leads which fit into the oarlocks of the boat. I mean...you are either rowing or sailing but usually not both together (not true in my case but strange things happen to me often). When you want to row, you pop these pinned leads, place them in the storage compartment, no fuss, no muss.

Just a thought.

ARM

[Nicholas Carey]

The usual rule of thumb (one, at least that will give you a good place to start) is that the line of the sheet lead—from the fairlead on deck to the clew—should, if extended through to the luff of the sail, bisect the luff.

A simple little geometry problem for your girls. :cool:

[mdevour]

Originally posted by Mad McGee:
If you raise sail on land be CAREFUL. My little 12 foot baby once got blown off its trailer in a parking lot...Hehehe... I can picture it perfectly, and understand completely. :eek: I think I will add some tiedown straps to the equation. :D



I am wondering if you could not fashion some kind of sheet leads which fit into the oarlocks ... I mean...you are either rowing or sailing but usually not both together (not true in my case but strange things happen to me often). That's something that crossed my mind too, McGee. Or embedding something in the rail that some sort fitting can pop in and out of fairly easily.

Again, that's secondary to making it work well, but it would be interesting to find out if anybody has ever done something similar.

Mike

[mdevour]

Originally posted by Nicholas Carey:
The usual rule of thumb (one, at least that will give you a good place to start) is that the line of the sheet lead—from the fairlead on deck to the clew—should, if extended through to the luff of the sail, bisect the luff.
I've seen that, and another that says 2/5ths of the way up the luff... I'll need to tweak it to be sure, I reckon.

Mike

[Todd Bradshaw]

Is there any way that you could mount lead blocks by attaching a short strop to them, dropping the strops down through the slotted inwales and looping them back up over the blocks? With several close spacer blocks you could pick whichever slot you found worked best for the conditions and remove the blocks when not sailing. The sheets could run through the blocks and back to centrally mounted clam cleats. Just an idea, but maybe it's workable. It would possibly give you a way to adjust the leads for the conditions, as opposed to a single fixed position. In heavy air you could move the blocks forward a bit and twist the jib's top off a bit to depower and open up the slot.

[ 04-02-2003, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[John B]

another way to get an approximate lead is to tip the whole boat on its side and then lead the sail so that there is even tension on foot and leech.Actually, I like a bit of twist, so I'd probably tension the foot a fraction on the leech.
If it was a keel boat sail, I'd stretch the sail out outside and project the lead I found back into the sail... and mark it with some tape.

Oops Todds fast. I was thinking 'where's Todd" when I typed that. But move them forward to twist off the head Todd?

And developing Todds idea. why couldn't you just tie the turning block onto that inwhale with a rolling hitch plus a couple of back up hitches.....

[ 04-02-2003, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

Sorry, I must have gotten my dyslexia backwards. Move the lead aft to twist-off the top. The idea that I originally envisioned was a pair of nice wood-shelled bullet blocks seized into rope grommets for the strops and maybe 12" of close spacers on the gunwale running both fore and aft of the theoretical correct sheet lead for adjustment.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

The only thing I'd add is to use a lizard fastened to the rising on each side, and thread the sheets through them. Then take the sheets back through beeblocks inside the gunwales within reach of the helm, and put stopper knots on the ends. Blocks aren't necessary for the jib-sheets in a boat this size, in my opinion.

You can move the lizards fore and aft until you find the optimum compromise position, but of course you can't, as in Todd's suggestion, choose a different one for different sailing conditions.

Mike

[mdevour]

Todd, John, Mike,

You've got me inspired, gentlemen! I've been puzzling on this one for a while and nothing ever presented itself...


Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
The idea that I originally envisioned was a pair of nice wood-shelled bullet blocks seized into rope grommets for the strops and maybe 12" of close spacers on the gunwale running both fore and aft of the theoretical correct sheet lead for adjustment.I LIKE this idea! It works, it's adjustable, it's removable, and it will look nice, too! :cool:

I'm afraid for now I'll be bastardizing your vision with cheap harken blocks, though. :(


Originally posted by John B:
... couldn't you just tie the turning block onto that inwhale with a rolling hitch plus a couple of back up hitches...I'd actually intended to do that on a temporary basis until I got the location right. The inwales could use a bit more support that Todd's additional spacers would provide if I put a screw into a couple of them.

Let me ask you this, gentlemen: What would be wrong with splicing a block or thimble in one end of a short lanyard with a wooden toggle at the other? I could drop it through one of the square holes and turn it sideways. This would be extra convenient — I could take the blocks right off the boat with the sheets!

Hmmmm?

I'm liking these ideas. :D

Mike

[mdevour]

Hi Mike,


Originally posted by Wooden Boat Fittings:
The only thing I'd add is to use a lizard fastened to the rising on each side, and thread the sheets through them... Blocks aren't necessary for the jib-sheets in a boat this size, in my opinion. I agree that blocks are overkill. Help me with the terminology you use, please? A lizard is a short piece of rope with an eye splice in one end, with or without a thimble?

"The rising?" The rail or side of the hull?



You can move the lizards fore and aft until you find the optimum compromise position, but of course you can't, as in Todd's suggestion, choose a different one for different sailing conditions. Why couldn't I make up a gasket, then use serving to capture a thimble in one end of it, and pull the longer loop over the inwale and around itself? Easy on, easy off... Or a lizard with a toggle in its tail? Easier still?


Then take the sheets back through beeblocks inside the gunwales within reach of the helm, and put stopper knots on the ends.I typed 'beeblocks' into Google and went right to your web site, Mike! :D

I think that, where the lead is going to end up on the rail, the sheet will go directly from the turning block to whatever serves for a belaying point amidships.

Looking at this picture, I believe the lead will fall somewhere above the centerboard brace...

http://www.eskimo.com/~mdevour/other_pictures/woodboat_post1.jpg

About my only other question is about the belaying point. A couple of cam cleats or jam cleats on the centerboard trunk would probably work well enough. Jam cleats would be less conspicuous and not present as much of a hazard to passengers or when you're rowing the thing. :eek:

Having two cleats next to each other, one foreward of the other, I can see a tendency to get the sheets tangled up with each other. I suppose one's always thrown off before the other goes on... hmmm.

I feel like I've just gotten measurably closer to having this boat built, guys! Excellent comments. Thank you so much!

Mike

[Dan McCosh]

I think you would find that simply tugging on the jib sheet when it is calm, and watching to see if the flattened jib is more less flat, would get you to about the right position while sailing. In other words, where the leech and the foot fo the sale are under about the same tension. This would be about righr for windward work, and then the sheet lead moves forward when off the wind.

[Dave Hadfield]

I like Todd's original idea -- seize an extra large grommet around a small wooden block so that a loop hangs below it, poke the loop through the slot, and loop it up and around the block. You can install it or remove it in seconds.

Go sailing in light winds. (Light only, since you don't have your inwale attached all that strongly, in the photo.) Assemble the block as described and lead the sheet through it, sail, and then slide the block back and forth on the inwale until the angle is right. Then mark the spot and secure the inwale with filler pieces on both sides of this area.

As for the toggle idea, by the time you seized an eye onto the toggle, wouldn't it be too thick to fit in the slot?

Nice looking boat. Lots of fun in store.