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Tylerdurden
10-09-2008, 05:06 PM
This is not a debate thread on gun control. This is about those seeking advice about what to purchase, how to use them safely and responsibly and the like.
Right now home safes and guns are flying off the shelves. I have witnessed two die hard liberals purchase the wrong weapon out of fear of asking advice so I figured some here are suffering the same fate.
Lot of Ex-military Spec ops and such here so you guys chime in.

Some ground rules. Basic simple arms based on cost, reliability and ease of use in regards to skill levels. Lets try to stay with common calibers and military rounds also.
Along with that basic maintenance, cleaning and zeroing.

My general recommendations is 12. ga pumps for those with limited experience but the strength to handle the recoil .
Next Small caliber rifles in 5.56 like the AR-15 and Mini-14.
After that 7.62 Like the Ak-47 then the M1 Garand or M-14

Lets not forget cleaning kits that are portable, I find these to be the best for the money http://www.otisgun.com/

Each weapon caliber should be accompanied by 200 rounds minimum.

Now lets get started.

paladin
10-09-2008, 05:23 PM
After the shotgun.......a lightweight comfortable .22 repeater and 2000 rounds of ammo....

Tylerdurden
10-09-2008, 05:26 PM
After the shotgun.......a lightweight comfortable .22 repeater and 2000 rounds of ammo....

I agree for hunting game, but without skills I would say its useless in defense even throwing all that lead quickly? Thoughts?

Bill R
10-09-2008, 05:34 PM
ditto the 12GA pumps. Have a couple and SWMBO and stepdaughter are well versed and proficient in their use.

Couple .22's, both bolt action.

20GA and .410 pump shotguns

.30-06, bolt action, scope

9mm semi-auto for the last ditch OH SH!T instances. SWMBO is also proficient in its use.

Also the compound bow with an attached quiver full of 3 blade broadheads and a case of more of the same...

Enough ammunition stockpiled to take over a small country if necessary. Cleaning kits for all.

TD, you also forgot to mention the "bug-out" bags, if I understand the underlying meaning to your thread...

John of Phoenix
10-09-2008, 05:38 PM
What are these for - protection or hunting or both?

Bill R
10-09-2008, 05:39 PM
I regard the .22's as a way to keep food on the table.

However, in an emergency, they are a hell of a lot better than throwing a rock at someone...

Phillip Allen
10-09-2008, 05:47 PM
12 ga and .22...

Paul Pless
10-09-2008, 05:55 PM
Home defense basics for those new to firearms, I'd recommend purchases in this order:

12 gauge pump definitely first

.357/.38 special 6 shot service revolver

mini 14 - .223 (I have an original police carbine with stainless folding stock :) )

CCW, I used to carry a Kimber Ultra CDP in .45 ACP (still have it and love it, great gun),
but now usually its a Smith Ti .357/.38 five shot revolver. (hell the cartridges almost weigh more than the gun does;))

All of the above practically useless and possibly dangerous without proper instruction, practice to gain proficiency, and the mental and emotional capacity to secure and carry and use the firearms responsibly.







liberals with guns, what a hoot.;):D

Captain Blight
10-09-2008, 05:58 PM
Don't forget the 'scoped sniper rifle as made by the Big Three gun manufactureres and marketed as "deer rifles." There's a reason the .30 Gov't has been around for 105 years and the 7.62 NATO half as long. They work.

Paul Pless
10-09-2008, 06:03 PM
There's a reason the .30 Gov't has been around for 105 yearsIts not my favorite rifle cartridge for many reasons (mostly obtuse:D) but its hard to argue with following.
Take for example 1906, the date year of the landmark cartridge of our time. The 1906 cartridge, which was a modification of the 1903 cartridge previously standard, is as near perfect as things of that sort can get. It is amusing (and slightly annoying) to see how the purchasers of sporting rifles seem to think that improved cartridge design is the answer to everything. I have long taught that if you can't do it with a 30-06, you probably can't do it. Every time some new brass powder bottle appears for sale, all sorts of people, qualified or otherwise, leap into the breach to explain how this new round is somehow better than what has gone before. Whether it is better or not must depend upon what it is designed to do, and it is effectively impossible to say that a shooter accomplished his purpose in the field with the new cartridge in a way that he could not have done with a 30-06. As it is said in Lindy Wisdom's verse: "There ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six." We do not know about the $700, but we do have confidence in the great 30-06 cartridge.

BrianW
10-09-2008, 07:27 PM
Cool. I was just talking with a friend today about my trip to the range this morning with a Remington M700 chambered in 30-06 Springfield, some handloads I made up with 200gr Partitions, and a nasty Leupold 3.5-10x (with target knobs no less ;)).

In a survival situation, I wouldn't use 200gr bullets though. Those are for elk this November. :)

Guess I need a nice semi-auto .223 (5.56mm) and I'll have all the previously recommended survival guns.

Tar Devil
10-09-2008, 07:42 PM
i go along with the Ruger Mini, but chambered in 6.8 SPC

seanz
10-09-2008, 08:48 PM
Ok, right, lets see if I've got this straight.....
I need;
.22
12 gauge
Ruger Mini 14 or equivalent
Bolt action .308 or 30-06

If I shop around and maybe go secondhand that's still about $3000 worth of firearms before I buy ammunition. I'd probably buy gardening supplies......

Well, that's the gun options dealt with.....what brand of religion should I be clinging to?
:p
:D

paladin
10-09-2008, 09:13 PM
at close range the shotgun with 2 3/4 shells will take small game....but it's better as a weapon for folks that don't handle firearms well. For a handgun a revolver is best if you may use it rarely...there's no magazine to distort and wear and it's ready after 20 years in the closet....and auto needs to be mostly unloaded or with , in the case of a 13 rd magazine, less than 6 rounds to prevent feed problems, then reload the magazine as needed for short term work. A .22 will take most game on the North american lower 48 states including white tailed deer. Its a 100 yard weapon but will usually stop a human being that's not wearing heavy clothing or body armor.
I would rather run away and live to fight another day....and carry a lightweight .22 semi like the Browning take down, and then 2000 rounds of ammo is possible in you backpack. At least 3 knives will be needed...forget the RAMBO stuff...a buck 4" skinner or two, a real Bowie like the Randall and/or a skatchet, and a 7 inch knife like the Randall #1...and a couple of good stones.

Kaa
10-09-2008, 09:14 PM
The Bilge is now a subforum of misc.survivalism... Or maybe alt.survival, depends on your tastes :D

Kaa

Captain Blight
10-09-2008, 09:16 PM
Almost as funny as liberal anarchists with guns. :D

Take my house...Please!:p
Anarchists aren't liberals.

And pray, just what is so funny about liberals with guns? Is it any funnier than KKKonservatives with homosexual tendencies?

Shang
10-09-2008, 09:36 PM
Their worst nightmare... Liberals with semiautomatic weapons...!

Tinman
10-09-2008, 09:41 PM
It isn't so much about the size or caliber of firearm that matters, but the crime detering factor the bad guy breaking into your house at 2 am feels when he hears of the sound of the ole blunderbuss being cocked in the darkness...

coelacanth2
10-09-2008, 09:50 PM
Totally agree on the 12 guage ('tho mine are semiauto and SXS) and .22. Muzzleloader ain't bad , either, couple of pounds of powder, several hundred caps (or flints) and some round balls would put dinner on the table for years. Buck'n'ball is good for oneshot defence, if necessary.
I don't have any buckshot for the 12s, but waterfowl shot is really nasty out to 65 yds or so, and the latest steel offerings are very high velocity - 1600 fps or thereabouts... and "T" shot is the size of ball bearings :D
Agree with the 30-06 and bow, too. Never had a handgun (cap and ball replica count?) but might get one for fun.
How is the Mini14 in anything bigger than 5.56?

Shang
10-09-2008, 09:55 PM
Never mind semiautomatic... With a Hellfire device or an Atkins Regulator it's possible to convert many semi's to simulated, near-full automatic...!
These are WAY less legal than they were a few years ago, but heck you can build one in an evening in your garage. Where's your spirit of adventure? ...you may come to like your cellmate, Tyrone, after a few years...

(Hey, I like guns as much as the next Midwesterner but get real...)

.

Ross M
10-09-2008, 10:08 PM
What, no drillings?

Phillip Allen
10-09-2008, 10:10 PM
they don't know what drillings are...

paladin
10-09-2008, 10:14 PM
The issue with weapons is not intended to be against your fellow man, but for gathering food. The weapon may be a deterrent to keep what you have. Some of us won't be able to get out and hunt for food.
When the city supplied the water/sewer connection here a few years ago, they required everone to seal off the wells and septic systems.......Mine still work...I did have extra water filters added and have a reverse osmosis system if necessary, I have 12 each 45 watt solar panels on the backside of the roof, with 3 8D batteries and inverters.....I really use it for backup for my refrig/freezer, but the primary use is for my emergency radio communications and repeater.

Memphis Mike
10-09-2008, 10:16 PM
Bang! Bang! You're dead!

seanz
10-09-2008, 10:16 PM
they don't know what drillings are...

Well I wouldn't but they come highly recommended in "Sensible Cruising Designs".
;)

brad9798
10-09-2008, 11:17 PM
9 mm ... 12 gauge Browning from 1956 ...

M-1 from the early 19th century ...

25-automatic nickel with ivory grip ...

32 snub

38 snub

45 officer's sidearm ...

22 rifle

30.6 rifle

Yea- I am okay!

Captain Blight
10-09-2008, 11:28 PM
Post #3 (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80759)

boylesboats
10-10-2008, 01:25 AM
Well ya'll said got stock pile of ammos...

Let see what I got here...
One .50 cal Hawkin and a replica 1858 Colt Navy in .44 cal
a bucket of wheel weights, 5 pounds of black powder combined with full powder flask, over 300 hot caps, enough tallow to grease patches and my mini-balls after casting them.. I am all set for next few years..

epoxyboy
10-10-2008, 01:25 AM
Ok, right, lets see if I've got this straight.....
I need;
.22
12 gauge
Ruger Mini 14 or equivalent
Bolt action .308 or 30-06

If I shop around and maybe go secondhand that's still about $3000 worth of firearms before I buy ammunition. I'd probably buy gardening supplies......

Well, that's the gun options dealt with.....what brand of religion should I be clinging to?
:p
:D

Sean - doh!!! you need the 12 gauge to sort out th' dudes who wil try and steal your Hartley.
You need a .22 for shooting rabbits when you need to live off the land (cause the .308 will turn a rabbit into something resembling tomato paste).
You need a .308 (aka 7.62mm, but go for the NATO round, not that weeny AK47 short round) for real man sized stopping power, coz th' dudes trying to steal your Harley might hide behind a brick wall - and a 7.62 NATO round will go straight through a brick wall and still take them out. It's also lethal/accurate out to a 1000 yards if u r good enuf - unlike those stoopid .223 pea shooter rounds.

Pete :-)

seanz
10-10-2008, 01:36 AM
:eek:
People steal Hartleys?
The fiends. :mad:

:D

I given a bit of thought to acquiring a bunny gun and decided against it on the grounds of cost and hassle. Money for the .22 and the (mandatory here in NZ) secure cabinet could just as easily go towards buying meat from the butcher, it'd be a long time before the rifle paid for itself.

LeeG
10-10-2008, 02:17 AM
Ok,,but what about your post apocalyptic bicycle ? Surely you don't think you'll be using up that precious petrol all the time.

PeterSibley
10-10-2008, 04:32 AM
:eek:
People steal Hartleys?
The fiends. :mad:

:D

I given a bit of thought to acquiring a bunny gun and decided against it on the grounds of cost and hassle. Money for the .22 and the (mandatory here in NZ) secure cabinet could just as easily go towards buying meat from the butcher, it'd be a long time before the rifle paid for itself.

Vegetable seed and a good plot of frost free ground ,a water supply (gravity ):) and lots of sun .Rabbit is good tucker ,especially after eating good organic vegetables .

Tylerdurden
10-10-2008, 04:34 AM
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Shang
10-10-2008, 09:33 AM
Dang, I wish I'd bought that 20mm Anti Tank gun...!
That would keep the Wallstreet bankers at bay...!

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/shangboat/20mmAntiTank.gif

TomF
10-10-2008, 09:35 AM
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund FreudBet my knives are longer than yours, TylerD!:D

Tylerdurden
10-10-2008, 09:37 AM
Bet my knives are longer than yours, TylerD!:D

Its not the tool that matters but who wields it.:D

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 10:33 AM
".38 revolver for the reasons Chuck gives - can spend 20 years in a drawer and still work!"

or, as in your case over there...an old Webley

Tylerdurden
10-10-2008, 10:33 AM
Pump action shotguns are the easiest to understand and operate for the beginner. That and reliability when needed just like the revolver.
Try and teach a newbie how to dismantle and clean a gas operated firearm. No easy task,

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 10:35 AM
they are easier to repair and clean...if one of those fine old doubles breaks a pin...without special tools and knowledge...you may as well give up

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-10-2008, 10:41 AM
".38 revolver for the reasons Chuck gives - can spend 20 years in a drawer and still work!"

or, as in your case over there...an old Webley

Most of the old Webleys are in plastic lunch boxes in back gardens in Northern Ireland!:)

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-10-2008, 10:42 AM
Rabbits?
Y' don't need guns for rabbits.
http://beingcreative.typepad.co.uk/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/12/hector_astonished.jpg

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 10:46 AM
funky lookin wabbit...

Paul Pless
10-10-2008, 10:48 AM
If you are seriously hunting to feed yourself, a pump gun is likely to waste precious ammunition.Don't know about that, but if I were seriously hunting to feed myself, it would be done with a rifle not a shotgun, probably a bolt gun, and wasting of ammo would not in any way shape or form enter into the equation.

Tylerdurden
10-10-2008, 10:51 AM
"...if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" Jesus Christ, Luke 22:36

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-10-2008, 10:52 AM
Don't know about that, but if I were seriously hunting to feed myself, it would be done with a rifle not a shotgun, probably a bolt gun, and wasting of ammo would not in any way shape or form enter into the equation.

Well, that's not how I go after wildfowl...;)

Paul Pless
10-10-2008, 10:57 AM
Well, that's not how I go after wildfowl...;)True, but I ain't gonna be studying many birds if I'm going hungry.

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 11:02 AM
ya know...if hunger is the issue...get some wire for snares

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-10-2008, 11:04 AM
Try one of these (outlawed in the USA, apparently - not here)

http://www.upperforthwildfowlers.co.uk/assets/images/punt_gun_500x500.JPG

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-10-2008, 11:09 AM
Now that is a good substantial piece of string.

I read an account of one being used, where the writer noted that it was important to make sure your knees were clear of the bottom boards....

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 11:10 AM
Punt gun...used by market hunters years ago and contributing to the extention of some fowel...generally used to kill or incapacatate hundres of ducks, etc at a stroke for "mining" meat for the open markets...fires a cloud of shot over resting ducks sitting on the water...hense "sitting duck"

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-10-2008, 11:11 AM
Manila rope, you'll notice, as used by Nelson & Co and from the same place - this is NOT a suitable application for Nylon!

botebum
10-10-2008, 11:14 AM
I hunt to feed my family. I intend to take deer using my 12 ga. Rem. 870 pump, my Rem. Speedmaster .22(legal to do here), and my Ruger .357 mag revolver. I was out scouting yesterday afternoon and could have easily taken a nice doe with either of the three guns as long as the 870 was loaded with a slug and not OOB. If I fill three tags with those three guns, I may load the Ithaca M66 single 20ga with a slug for the fourth. That would leave the .380 Sigma and the Crossman air rifle, neither of which are well suited to the task:rolleyes:
Squirrel season opens on Monday. Weather permitting I'll be out everyday till Thursday working them over. Then, out of the woods till Saturday when gun season opens for deer. I squirrel hunt on the far side of the 138 acres from where my tree stands are but it's still a good idea to leave it alone for a day or two.

Doug

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-10-2008, 11:14 AM
Punt gun...used by market hunters years ago and contributing to the extention of some fowel...generally used to kill or incapacatate hundres of ducks, etc at a stroke for "mining" meat for the open markets...fires a cloud of shot over resting ducks sitting on the water...hense "sitting duck"

Actually, you don't shoot at "sitting" ducks.

Line up, tap the side of the punt to get them off the water, then fire. (Time this right...)

Carry a 12 bore for the cripples.

The sport lies in the fact that you spend several hours in the morning dark for a single shot, because one shot is all you will be getting - if you get one .

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-10-2008, 11:20 AM
As the man said:

If it doesn't fly - it doesn't die.

Open to flexible interpretation if hungry.

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 11:50 AM
The shooting I described stems from the notion (which came from Europe originally) that exploitation was a human right and even obligation in the face of a howling wilderness

paladin
10-10-2008, 12:33 PM
Another reason for the 12 ga. shotgun....and be sure to get 3 inch chambers, and the .22 is ammunition availability.....those calibers being the most common. The 2 3/4 inch shells will fit 3 inch chambers and 22 long rifles, longs, and shorts will usually function in the same rifle with nothing more than a magazine change, if that.....When using these weapons for survival hunting, a silencer can be made for the 22 with some duct tape, a couple of plastic pipe nipples, and something as simple as a 12 oz. soda bottle.....I've never taken a mule deer, but white tails and pigs in Arkysaw can be BBQ'd with a 22.....

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 12:40 PM
damn okie poacher...:)

He likes his eggs fried and his deer poached

Tar Devil
10-10-2008, 12:55 PM
When shooting whitetail with .22s (assuming rimfire and not bottleneck cartridges), does one make head shots or typical lung/heart shots? Hard to imagine recovering a lung shot deer using .22 rimfire...

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 12:59 PM
head/spine I believe (try not to shoot em in the horns)

botebum
10-10-2008, 01:07 PM
When shooting whitetail with .22s (assuming rimfire and not bottleneck cartridges), does one make head shots or typical lung/heart shots? Hard to imagine recovering a lung shot deer using .22 rimfire...From what I've found/read, the best shot placement is 1"-2" behind the eye. It'll be a first for me. I'll be using a CCI Stinger bullet which has a muzzle velocity of 1640 fps as opposed to subsonics @ 1050 fps or high velocity @ 1250 fps unless I can find something hotter.

Doug

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 01:20 PM
Hotter isn't necessarily better Doug...super speed bullets come apart without penetrating sometimes. Best penetration is likely to be the old HV 40 grain solids

ucb4ume
10-10-2008, 01:22 PM
In case any Obama era BATFE Agents are monitoring this site: All my fire arms were lost in a tragic boating accident. :D No need to come to my house after the confiscation order is given.

paladin
10-10-2008, 01:30 PM
You can get 55 grain solid long rifles, heavier bullet, similar velocity......for close in town use the subsonic rounds by fiochi for wabbitts and tree rats, porky pines and possums for the stew pot.....also good for heads of chikkins and have taken turkey the same way.
Do not aim between the eyes on the deer, the bullet will ricochet.....aim thru the eye or just behind it and inch or so low.......or as Phillip sez, the spine several inches down the back from the antlers. The really small swamp deer in Looosyanna and mississippi/Florida are easy shots with a .22....

BrianW
10-10-2008, 02:03 PM
Phillip,

It must be hell pouring blackpowder down a .22 caliber barrel. Whadda use to seat the bullet, a wire clothes hanger? ;)

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 02:06 PM
I once watched a guy trying to compete with a .28 cal flintlock

Actually, it is awkward pouring a charge down anything much less than .36 cal

Paul Pless
10-10-2008, 02:08 PM
Hotter isn't necessarily better Doug...super speed bullets come apart without penetrating sometimes. Just for arguements sake. There are high velocity .22 LR cartridges available with bullets that will hold together.

Personally I ain't much interested in hunting deer with a rimfire.

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 02:10 PM
Paul...the old .22 LR HV wasn't broke so I don't think it needed fixing...the new stuff is market massage

BrianW
10-10-2008, 02:16 PM
I would think a 22 rimfire that's 25% faster than what was currently available would be a good thing.

paladin
10-10-2008, 02:21 PM
I have the Browning take down, and a pair of Armelite AR-7's but the favorite for general hunting is a bolt action Stevens that belonged to Granddad...can pop bottle caps a good distance away with it...now I need a scope.....

botebum
10-10-2008, 02:32 PM
At 50 yds the HV rounds were dropping 2.5"-3". The CCI Stingers were running dead flat. Placement is going to be essential to take down a deer with a .22. Both the Stingers and the HV rounds I've been shooting are HP's. Do you think I should look for a solid instead?

Doug

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 02:45 PM
I would think a 22 rimfire that's 25% faster than what was currently available would be a good thing.

this coming from a fan of super cartridges?

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 02:47 PM
I would think a 22 rimfire that's 25% faster than what was currently available would be a good thing.

achieved by giving up bullet weight...which gives up terminal power and accuracy
"the B-B that hits is considerably more effective than the cannon that misses"

Paul Pless
10-10-2008, 02:49 PM
this coming from a fan of super cartridges?if you're gonna be that way, why not just step down to a .22 short;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/22short22lr.jpg

BrianW
10-10-2008, 03:07 PM
this coming from a fan of super cartridges?

Actually, like you, I'm a fan of big and slow. Take the 30-06 load I mentioned earlier... 200gr Partitions use the starting load (in grains) of H4831. My .416Taylor is the slowest of the .416 cartridges. I'll admit to having a 300 Win Mag in the safe (albeit it an ABolt :() which I haven't messed with in years. When I did, I went with 'heavy for caliber' bullets again. Might be due to the big brown fuzzy things that share the woods with the deer in these parts. :)

I just get a kick when ya talk bad about anything more modern than 1900 in firearms. It's part of the reason I like ya so much. :)

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 03:10 PM
if you're gonna be that way, why not just step down to a .22 short;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/22short22lr.jpg


the short was designed as a serious self-defense cartridge...additionally, the short uses a 27 grain bullet as opposed to the long rifle round's design using a 40 grain bullet

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 03:13 PM
Actually, like you, I'm a fan of big and slow. Take the 30-06 load I mentioned earlier... 200gr Partitions use the starting load (in grains) of H4831. My .416Taylor is the slowest of the .416 cartridges. I'll admit to having a 300 Win Mag in the safe (albeit it an ABolt :() which I haven't messed with in years. When I did, I went with 'heavy for caliber' bullets again. Might be due to the big brown fuzzy things that share the woods with the deer in these parts. :)

I just get a kick when ya talk bad about anything more modern than 1900 in firearms. It's part of the reason I like ya so much. :)

them modren catrige guns is just a passing fad...

Paul Pless
10-10-2008, 03:26 PM
them modren catrige guns is just a passing fad...:D

So where's your cutoff for what's modern?

centerfire primers? smokeless powder??

BrianW
10-10-2008, 03:29 PM
Okay, we got the .22 rimfire thing settled.

Anyone here running a SKS or two? Russian, Chinese, Romanian? Where's the best place to buy one now?

Besides private sales, which really is the best way to avoid detection.

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 03:30 PM
:D

So where's your cutoff for what's modern?

centerfire primers? smokeless powder??


It's a joke Paul...I don't get interested in the super cartridge stuff because the things bore me (no pun intended). It is just salesmen trying to increase their Christmas bonus's...everything that was hunted on this continent has been successfully taken with the cartridges that were available before the use of smokeless powder

botebum
10-10-2008, 03:33 PM
Okay, we got the .22 rimfire thing settled.

No we didn't. I was hoping for an answer to the question I asked in post # 72.

Doug

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 03:34 PM
No we didn't. I was hoping for an answer to the question I asked in post # 72.

Doug

yes

BrianW
10-10-2008, 03:36 PM
Oops, sorry.

If it were me, then yes, I would absolutely look for a solid. This due to the fact you're taking shots at bone, not soft flesh.

Do they make'em in solids?

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 03:38 PM
I think of the standard 40g bullet as a solid...(good point BTW)

botebum
10-10-2008, 04:01 PM
CCI doesn't make anything in a round or flat nose that compares well with the velocity, trajectory, or bullet weight. I haven't checked other manufacturers yet.

Doug

botebum
10-10-2008, 05:32 PM
I've done some online searching and the Rem. Viper TC(truncated cone)- which is what they call their flat nose comes in HP and solid(36gr). 1410 fps at the muzzle and a fairly flat trajectory. In reviews I've found that it has a rep. for leaving a mess in the barrel but I've found that to be an issue with all Rem. ammo I've ever used and cleaning my guns never feels like a chore so it's a non-issue for me.
What do you think Phillip? Is this the one? I'm a little curious about how well the truncated cone will feed through my gun.
Can you tell I've got kind of a hardon to get my deer with as many different guns as possible this year? My neighbor just offered to loan me his muzzleloader too and that opens tomorrow. So that may be my first of the year. I'm allowed six for the season. I'm gonna need another freezer ... I hope.

Doug

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 06:13 PM
wfhat range do you anticipate using the Viper at?

botebum
10-10-2008, 06:53 PM
wfhat range do you anticipate using the Viper at?25 to 40 yds

Doug

brad9798
10-10-2008, 09:53 PM
M-1 from the early 19th century ...

OOPS!

I meant early 20th century ... :p

ishmael
10-10-2008, 10:05 PM
I'm not a hunter, but why would you go after deer with a .22 LR rimfire unless you had to? Seems to me that unless you are quite skilled the chances of a lost, wounded deer are pretty high. I mean, if that's the only tool at your disposal...

I doff my cap to those here with much better knowledge than mine.

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 10:44 PM
25 to 40 yds

Doug


standard .22 long rifle high velocity...40g bullet...the higher velocity loses more than it gains...accuracy

next time you're feeling flush, try some Eley 10X and shoot for group against any CCI or other standard brand...about $15 for 50 rounds...the ammo makes a big difference regardless of the rifle

Phillip Allen
10-10-2008, 10:48 PM
I'm not a hunter, but why would you go after deer with a .22 LR rimfire unless you had to? Seems to me that unless you are quite skilled the chances of a lost, wounded deer are pretty high. I mean, if that's the only tool at your disposal...

I doff my cap to those here with much better knowledge than mine.

when I was teaching the hunter safety course I used to try to lexplain what hunting ethics meant by saying that you could kill an 800 pound beef with a .22 short...but not with just any shot...if the game and fish could be sure of ethical hunters, there would be no minimum caliber

.22 RF is a poor choice of deer hunting cartgridge...unless you are VERY sure of shot placement and actually know where to place it and PASS UP ALL OTHER SHOTS!

Tar Devil
10-10-2008, 11:13 PM
Watched a couple of hunting shows tonight. One very experienced hunter fired 5 shells before bringing down his deer.

Personally, I don't shoot enough to feel good about using .22 RF for whitetail, unless I'm really hungry. When you really gotta eat... rules and animal ethics out the window.

botebum
10-11-2008, 12:11 AM
I guess I should explain a bit. Not justify, just explain. I don't give a crap if I'm hunting with a cannon. If it's not a exellent shot for the weapon you are using then you shouldn't take the shot. Using Jack's sense of reasoning would eliminate bow hunting altogether. I can put a .22 round inside a 50 cent piece at 50 yds. How many bow hunters can claim that kind of accuracy? Their extent of damage with an arrow to the heart/lung area is not much better than my .22. I can put one through the animal's skull inflicting massive damage. The bow hunter cannot and is pretty much restricted to the heart/lung shot. My ability to conceal myself and allow the deer to get closer to me is much greater than the bow hunter in that I don't require the room to move that he does to draw and aim his bow. Last but not least- it is legal in North Carolina to shoot a deer with any caliber I choose.
I have presented myself with a challenge to use every gun I own to take a deer with the exception of my .380 Sigma and my Crossman air rifle. If I can take deer with any gun I choose then, in my opinion, I am a better hunter. That doesn't mean I'll take the same shot with a .22 that I'd take with a 12ga OOB. I won't shoot OOB the same as a slug or a slug the same as a .357 mag, etc. Every gun/round needs to be hunted to maximize it's own characteristics.
BTW- Deer have been taken with rimfire .22's since the round was invented.

Doug

Tar Devil
10-11-2008, 12:44 AM
I'm not sure I agree with all your reasoning, Doug. You actually have a moderately generous target area in a lung shot with a bow, and a well prepared broad head does a lot of lethal cutting passing through..., more damage, in my opinion, than a .22 rimfire bullet. IMO, shot placement is much more critical with the rimfire than with an arrow.

I'm not being critical of one's choice to hunt deer with 22's... its just something I wouldn't do unless I was desperate for food. I'm not confident enough with my accuracy for a perfect head shot, therefore I want an adequate heart/lung wound channel before i pull the trigger. I might consider using something less than 6 mm with a perfect broad side shot and a good performing frangible bullet, but not rimfire.

botebum
10-11-2008, 12:48 AM
I understand what you are saying Phil. You're gonna have to trust me when I say that I won't take any shot(with any weapon) that I'm not absolutely confident of.
Also- I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a bow and arrow if I was locked inside.

Doug

BrianW
10-11-2008, 02:04 AM
Well, it's a thread about survival and firearms, so I find botebums contribution interesting.

BrianW
10-11-2008, 02:05 AM
How about this survival gun?

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa66/Prowler1973/Dewalt.jpg

Tar Devil
10-11-2008, 08:07 AM
Well, it's a thread about survival and firearms, so I find botebums contribution interesting.

So did I. My comments were just a persoal choice. I only disagreed with his damage assessment betwee a .22 rimfire bullet and the arrow.

ishmael
10-11-2008, 08:29 AM
I wasn't jumping on Doug, either. I'd hunt deer with a .22 rimfire if I were hungry. I'd rather have a rifle with more punch that wasn't as reliant on hitting very small kill zones.

And I salute Doug's commitment to making a good shot. Maine has a long tradition of honorable hunting, but I remember a funny story from when I lived in MD. A dairy farmer got so sick of his cows getting shot and shot at during hunting season by yahoos that he took spray paint in international orange and painted all of his cows with big bright letters COW. He he. It'd be funnier if if weren't so true.

paladin
10-11-2008, 10:18 AM
I have told this story before....but.....

Granddad was sick and tired of folks taking potshots at the critters near his house. He had a lifesize cardboard deer made for a target range and painted over the target marks, stuck it to some wood and mounted it about 35 yards from the road, in and out of some small shrubs near the trees.....
Then he put up several signs, "no hunting from the highway" and "Private property, no hunting"...
All weekend he heard shots fired at all hours of the day and evening, then Sunday morning put on his hat and badge, strapped on his revolver, and picked up his double barrel shotgun and waited across the road from the target...
Sure enough, two fellows pulled up, opened the trunk of a late model car, got out a couple of rifles and proceeded to blast away.....they were arrested and lost their guns and a big fine.....as I recall, granddad picked up a cigar box full of spent cartridge cases on the shoulder of the road, and the deer target had two holes, only one would have been fatal.

botebum
10-11-2008, 10:48 AM
No hunting today. I'm heading out after lunch to try and find a Therma Cell(nearest Wally World is sold out) and my friend that will be loaning me his muzzleloader needs to get the screw fitting he needs to retrieve a jammed sabot.
According to everything I've found, Therma Cell is the best thing on the market for skeeters. Thursday, when I was out scouting, I'd have been eaten alive if I hadn't had full camo mosquito netting. Don't want to use the netting for hunting cuz it blurs my view badly.
If I can find them I'll be picking up a box of Rem. Viper TC solids, 1410fps(muzzle) 36gr. and a box of Aquila Interceptor, plated round nose, 1470fps,92ft/lbs(muzzle)40gr. I may have to order the Aquilas. After I see how they shoot and how they like/dislike my Speedmaster, I'll make a decision.
If anyone has other round suggestions I'd like to hear them.

Doug

BrianW
10-11-2008, 05:38 PM
Chuck,

They got 'robo-deers' now that the Troopers use to catch poachers. I'm guessing the excuse that 'I knew it wasn't real' doesn't carry much weight. :)

Paul Pless
10-11-2008, 05:51 PM
The wardens set those robo deer up down the road from my house a few times every winter for a little sting. Its a big ole greenfield on the outside of a corner where you can't help but swing your headlights through it. A few years ago they arrested several poachers in a single night. Come to find out that only one of them had actually hit the deer. The old man was in his seventies and had hit the base of the skull with an old .30-30 lever gun with iron sights.:D

htom
10-11-2008, 05:57 PM
In Minnesota it's illegal to hunt deer with a .22 (there are actually a bunch of cartridges it's not legal to use -- opps, they've change the ammo rules this year, again, and made them much, much, simpler, but a .22 rimfire is still out. This list used to be almost three pages in length!)


It is at least .220 caliber and has center fire ignition;
It is loaded only with single projectile ammunition;
The projectile used has a soft point or is an expanding bullet type;
The muzzleloader (long gun or handgun) used cannot be loaded at the breech (muzzleloading revolvers are not legal for taking big game);
The smooth-bore muzzleloader used is at least .45 caliber and
The rifled muzzleloader used is at least .40 caliber;
Muzzleloaders with scopes are legal during the regular firearms deer seasons, but are not allowed during the muzzleloader season except by
special permit for hunters with a medically certified visual impairment.

botebum
10-11-2008, 06:07 PM
It is loaded only with single projectile ammunition;


No Buckshot?

Doug

Phillip Allen
10-11-2008, 06:08 PM
buckshot is very short ranged (on the order of 25 yards)...but few hunters realize that and wound many...

htom
10-11-2008, 06:21 PM
No shot shells for big game in Minnesota. You can use slugs if you want to use your shotgun. I wonder if they meant that "single projectile" to ban sabots?

Phillip Allen
10-11-2008, 06:28 PM
No shot shells for big game in Minnesota. You can use slugs if you want to use your shotgun. I wonder if they meant that "single projectile" to ban sabots?

prolly not...

ishmael
10-11-2008, 06:30 PM
When I lived in Ohio the only firearm allowed was a shotgun with slugs. At least I think no multiple pellets were allowed, and I'm sure rifles were banned. A sabot wouldn't count as a multiples, would it?

I don't think I could hunt unless I were hungry. I'm not against it, and I love a good piece of venison.

botebum
10-11-2008, 06:48 PM
Same here Donn. I average 9/15 pellets in the kill zone at 50 yds.

Doug

Phillip Allen
10-11-2008, 07:09 PM
Reckon that depends on your gun, eh? Mine'll reach out a good bit further with 00.


No offence meant Don but when I ran the gun shop I listened to many tales of picking off deer at 800 yards with a 30-30...everybodys shotgun/rifle/pistol is an exception to the rule

paladin
10-11-2008, 07:32 PM
My little carbine is good for 40-60 yards.....357JM......or the .257 Roberts or 7mm rem mag to stretch the range......but my deer are a bit closer....

BrianW
10-11-2008, 08:11 PM
No offence meant Don but when I ran the gun shop I listened to many tales of picking off deer at 800 yards with a 30-30...everybodys shotgun/rifle/pistol is an exception to the rule

I like the story about how the bullet rises after leaving the barrel. ;)

Behind the counter at a gun store is a good place to practice your poker face.

Paul Pless
10-11-2008, 08:16 PM
My little carbine is good for 40-60 yards.....357JM......or the .257 Roberts or 7mm rem mag to stretch the range......but my deer are a bit closer....Chuck, whats a .357 JM?

I don't hunt much anymore. But, I'd opt for my .44 lever for close in heavy brush work. And for longer open ranged hunting of deer, my old custom #1 in .257 Wby Mag topped with a Kahles 2.5-10 is pretty good out to 375 yards+ by the numbers (still enough energy to do the job) and it shows excellent accuracy on paper targets at that range. I personally don't much trust myself beyond 300 yards on game though, and the longest shot on game I've ever taken was only 240 yards.

Phillip Allen
10-11-2008, 08:28 PM
"it shoots flat for the first 600 yards then after that the bullet gradually rises 'till it wears out"

paladin
10-11-2008, 08:40 PM
The .357 JM or more properly JMP is for Jurras Magnum Pistol.....357 Jurras Magnum. In reality the case is a standard rimmed .357 magnum case, with a heavier bullet and powder to jurras specs for his wildcat round. I can shoot standard .38 specials or normal .357 magnum rounds through the same weapon with no changes...the only problem is wadcutters seem to stick....Jurras also did .41 and .44 caliber versions and the rimless cases for the automag pistol. Ted and I made the rimless .44 cartridges before the automag pistol was developed. We used rewerked .30 carbines, surplus NRA weapons rechambered for our .44 Bulldozer cartridge, which was a cut down and resized/renecked 30-06 or .308 case made for a .429 jacketed bullet and 27.5 gr. of IMR 4227 powder. 20 such rounds would fit in a standard 30 round carbine magazine and operate exactly like the M-1 or M-2 with a lot more punch.

panmanb
12-21-2008, 06:07 PM
OK I have to interject , .22 no good fail rate is too high if you go to the range and shoot all the time you will see more .22 guns jammin than anyother amo . Next the shot gun? for home defense ? lets see you have to load it pump it if its a pump and take off the safety aim and shoot . hmmmm seems still complicated to me for someone who knows not much about guns . so that brings us to semi auto hand guns which except for the glock all have a safety on them . also if not cleaned regularly will tend to jam , some more than others . so last but not least the wheel gun or revolver is the best choice for home safety double action case of a squib load u just keep squeezing the trigger and the next round is fired . no safety and no thinking involved if u are in a hurry cause the burgler is commin down the hall and u cant even remember your name .

Captain Blight
12-21-2008, 09:37 PM
20 gauge double with #9 shot for home defense in my house. It'll go through a door, no problem, and lodge in whatever's behind the door. It will go through one side of a lath-and-plaster wall and not the other side. Always loaded, safety off, on the floor by my bed.

I absolutely hate having it there but I got meth-heads only a couple doors down and we've had words a few times. I don't like them and I damn sure don't trust them.

Robert L E
12-21-2008, 11:58 PM
Being English, I don't like pump action shotguns!

I take it the idea is that the sound is meant to deter a burglar. But frankly any sound made by the householder puts a burglar into fight or flight mode.

If you are seriously hunting to feed yourself, a pump gun is likely to waste precious ammunition.

Agree the .22 rifle.

.38 revolver for the reasons Chuck gives - can spend 20 years in a drawer and still work!

How is a pump gun likely to waste ammunition? Pumps are cheap reliable and easy to use. They shoot one round at a time. Most hold five rounds and can be modified to hold three or four more. The Remington 870 pump is probably the most popular civilian gun in the world with over seven million sold.

For the price of a Holland and Holland Royal 12 SXS double, you could buy 400 or so Remingtons, even more Mossberg pumps.

I would love to be able to afford that H&H though.

Bob