Firebricks? for shipmate stove

[redbopeep]

Anyone know a good source for firebricks for a shipmate model 134 stove? Info about the firebricks for that stove, too.

Thanks!

Just got the stove...see link here:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86143

[Jay Greer]

Not having fire bricks will, eventually, burn out the fire box.
A brick mason can cut you a set out of bigger bricks.
Jay

[redbopeep]

Thanks for the reply, Jay.

I just spoke with Andrew at Navigator Stove Works. He gave me the scoop on making my own with refractory cement. Also he explained how I'd end up using the plate that came with the stove for putting in the firebox in front of the fire door if I used coal (and loaded from the top).

Now, I'm just in search of a 6" thru-deck moat fitting...

[Jay Greer]

Kool! I think andrew has those water deck irons. If not, try Davey Marine under the heading "water well deck flanges".
Jay

[PeterSibley]

I use a mixture of cement fondue (available from pottery supply stores ) and vermiculite ,around 40 / 60 as a castable refractory in my foundry furnace .It's cheap and very good .I've repaired stoves this way too ,not as robust as a ceramic firebrick but a good emergency measure that will last 5 years or so .Just set up a section of ply inside the firebox and pack the castable behind .Let it go off and then a day or so to harden .A slow fire to follow .

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

A word on deck water irons.

The usual way to fit these is with the section of pipe from the stove terminating on the below deck side of the flange and the chimney proper fitted onto the above deck side.

This puts the flue gases in direct contact with the deck fitting; it gets hot.

WhenI was living aboard I was shown another way, which is more awkward but safer.

Take the pipe from the stove right through the deck fitting to a height of say eight inches above the deck, pack round it with stove string and seal with a dab of cement to waterproof it. Drop the chimney over this stub fitting.

The deck water iron stays much cooler = safer.

[redbopeep]

I'm sort of beginning to wonder about those moat deck irons being safe. I look at house stove pipes--the class A ones are double or ripple wall to keep the flue gases away from the wall that comes in contact with combustible materials. My deck is nothing if not "combustible" :rolleyes:

I've got a 6" flue which needs to go through a space between the deck beams. The deck beams are 1-3/4 and 2-3/4" wide x 3-1/4 tall on twelve inch centers (every other one is the thicker dimension) so...I've got 9.75" between deck beams and then of course the deck is wood too. I like Andrew Craig-Bennett's method which sounds like it requires a larger deck iron fitting than the 6" min I'd need now. I wonder if I can find a larger one and manage to fit it into that 9.75" space...

I know that Port Townsend Foundry has patterns for 6" and larger. Navigator Stove works doesn't have anything that large but suggests to get in touch with Lunenberg Foundry since they're still casting some things in bronze.

[redbopeep]

I use a mixture of cement fondue (available from pottery supply stores ) and vermiculite ,around 40 / 60 as a castable refractory in my foundry furnace .It's cheap and very good .I've repaired stoves this way too ,not as robust as a ceramic firebrick but a good emergency measure that will last 5 years or so .Just set up a section of ply inside the firebox and pack the castable behind .Let it go off and then a day or so to harden .A slow fire to follow .

I heard someone else who did much the same thing with his Dickinson stove which had a fire clay lining fall apart. He packed it in and it seemed to work well.

The helpful fellow, Andrew, at NSW suggested making templates from foam insulation that I can fit in place and remove so I could notch them together (Lincoln log like) and then make the refractory cement ones from those patterns.


You know, owning a wooden boat is like one giant "arts and crafts" project :)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Are you sure that you need a six inch flue? I honestly think that you will do fine with a five inch flue. You just need to make or to have made a conical fitting that will fit onto the upstand on the stove. My Shipmate 301 gets on fine with this, as did the Skippy before it.

Use heavy stainless pipe for the flue - NOT copper or bronze.

[redbopeep]

Are you sure that you need a six inch flue? I honestly think that you will do fine with a five inch flue. You just need to make or to have made a conical fitting that will fit onto the upstand on the stove. My Shipmate 301 gets on fine with this, as did the Skippy before it.

Use heavy stainless pipe for the flue - NOT copper or bronze.

Measuring (with my high-tech string...) the circumference of the oval on the back of the stove (a little over 19") it seems made for a 6" flue. Is yours the same size but you just reduce down to 5"?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yup!

It's all to do with cross sectional area, of course.

4" pipe = 12,556 square inches (just adequate)

5" pipe = 15.7075 sq. ins (fine)

6" pipe = 18.89 sq. ins (overkill)

Now don't, whatever you do, forget the damper in the pipe, The slide type is much better and safer than the butterfly type.

[redbopeep]

Yup!

It's all to do with cross sectional area, of course.

4" pipe = 12,556 square inches (just adequate)

5" pipe = 15.7075 sq. ins (fine)

6" pipe = 18.89 sq. ins (overkill)

Now don't, whatever you do, forget the damper in the pipe, The slide type is much better and safer than the butterfly type.

Now I'd have to get out my ruler and do the math! The string and pi were so much easier! I get 17.44 sq. in in that oval at the back of the stove. If I'm matching it, then I have to go "up" to 6 inch pipe. And, of course, a 6" pipe fits the circumference perfectly, too. But, you say you have this same size oval and the smaller 5" works great, huh?

I've only seen the butterfly type of damper for the flue and that's the type this stove came with--why is the other type better?

[PeterSibley]

Should you wish to use castable refractory , it is not necessary to make bricks ( although that would be a good way to go should you have the enthusiasm ) .I usually just form up the firebox space ...where the fire will go ...and pack the castable hard against the iron wall .It may be necessary to do one side at a time .

[redbopeep]

Should you wish to use castable refractory , it is not necessary to make bricks ( although that would be a good way to go should you have the enthusiasm ) .I usually just form up the firebox space ...where the fire will go ...and pack the castable hard against the iron wall .It may be necessary to do one side at a time .

Can one do the door too? This door is a casting single wall thick with no little nibs or anything to place a protective bit of steel inside of it to make it double wall. Would the catable "stick and stay" in the door casting? That would be nice, it seems.

The sheet of steel that came with it to protect the door if you're using coal goes on the inside of the firebox and makes it so you have to load from the top--not really good for wood.

[PeterSibley]

Can one do the door too? This door is a casting single wall thick with no little nibs or anything to place a protective bit of steel inside of it to make it double wall. Would the catable "stick and stay" in the door casting? That would be nice, it seems.

The sheet of steel that came with it to protect the door if you're using coal goes on the inside of the firebox and makes it so you have to load from the top--not really good for wood.

The castable won't stick ,you would have to contain it .The door might be the place to use a shop bought brick .Is there any way to attach it ? Bolts and large washers ? You could braze nuts to the inside of the door then run bolts through the castable section to the door with large washers under the head .If you did something like that use lots of copper based grease so you can get them off to repair and replace things .

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Now I'd have to get out my ruler and do the math! The string and pi were so much easier! I get 17.44 sq. in in that oval at the back of the stove. If I'm matching it, then I have to go "up" to 6 inch pipe. And, of course, a 6" pipe fits the circumference perfectly, too. But, you say you have this same size oval and the smaller 5" works great, huh?

I've only seen the butterfly type of damper for the flue and that's the type this stove came with--why is the other type better?

AFAIK, Shipmate made all their stoves to fit standard inch increment flue pipe squished into an oval, and they tended to err or the large side, maybe because those sizes of flue pipe were easy to get. But if you have a cross sectional area of 12" you ought to be all right for a short flue and 15" is fine for one as long as you will need on a boat. Someone will be along presently with Bernoulli, etc, but if you use a reasonably heavy gauge pipe (as I recommend) you will have thermal factors working with you - the warmth of the flue keeps the updraft working.

A six inch flue is massive and creates, as you say, interesting insulation problems, not to mention the need for an heroically sized deck fitting.

The trouble with butterfly dampers is that they are not to be relied on - they break fairly easily and they "fail open" without you being aware of it.

A better pattern is a heavy stainless slide working in a slot across the flue - mine is a 5" flue with a 3.5" slide working across it. You can see where it is and it will always close.

[PeterSibley]

Andrew , this is rather interesting .The flue sizes you are specifying seem quite large for the size of the stove .I run a Rayburn slow combustion ...do you know the one ?
It has 6" flue but I always run it 3/4 closed ,that is with dry hardwood fuel ...but then I have 10 foot of flue above the damper .That 10 foot length may be the difference between household use and aboard a boat ?

Is the Shipmate firebox relatively sealed like the Rayburn or "open" ?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Peter - I very muich agree with you. The Shipmates all seem to be made to take needlessly large flues. When one considers the 1" flue on a Pascall Atkey Pansy or a Taylors heater, something seems out of kilter. doesn't it.

My Shipmate 301 is quite a different model - it is a pure heater rather than a cooking range, and burns hardwood or smokeless coal, and the Skippy was the bottom of the range cooking stove, so I cannot comment intelligently on the firebox on the 211 and 212 cooking ranges. I would guess they are much like the Rayburn - which I do indeed know, as almost every farmhouse in England has one - unless they have been bought by bankers who have fitted an Aga!

[PeterSibley]

As an aside ,the Rayburn foundry and plant must have been a sight to behold .They have sold tens of thousands of stoves to Australia...one small market !

Back to the Shipmate .It resembles a "wood stove " , lots of different brands made here over the last century .Some very attractive ,with fine enamel finishes .They normally had a 4" flue ,but it was long ,again 10 foot or so .A short flue is a recipe for bad draft so I suppose the increased size is a compensation .

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

No need for the past tense, Peter, they are still churning 'em out:

http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/

:)

I agree but there is a trade off - the wind speed over the deck of a boat is typically higher than the wind speed across a roof, so the venturi effect on the stove cowl is more pronounced. So no need to increase the flue diameter (but all the more need for a good damper!)

Why Shipmate went for such huge flues remains a mystery!

(A propos cowls - I favour the H type.)

[PeterSibley]

Yes , I've looked longingly at the new ones , mine must be 50 years old now ...still going fine thank you ! But a new Rayburn is A$10,000 !!!! not in my bracket I'm afraid .It will either be a rebuilt one or an Irish Stanley ,when the time comes .

[redbopeep]

Peter - I very muich agree with you. The Shipmates all seem to be made to take needlessly large flues. When one considers the 1" flue on a Pascall Atkey Pansy or a Taylors heater, something seems out of kilter. doesn't it.

My Shipmate 301 is quite a different model - it is a pure heater rather than a cooking range, and burns hardwood or smokeless coal, and the Skippy was the bottom of the range cooking stove, so I cannot comment intelligently on the firebox on the 211 and 212 cooking ranges. I would guess they are much like the Rayburn - which I do indeed know, as almost every farmhouse in England has one - unless they have been bought by bankers who have fitted an Aga!

Hi, again,

Interesting about the flue sizes--I must say I would LOVE to have a 5" just for getting smaller deck fitting, etc.

Andrew, this stove is a model 134, 6 burner, quite a large stove (32" x25.5" x25.5" plus the rails) and large firebox for that matter. I'm not familiar with the 211 or 212.

Length of stovepipe belowdecks will likely be 3 and a half foot as the overhead is about 6'8" above the sole and I'm not quite sure how high we'll have to install the stove because of curve of the hull but it looks that the stove surface will be a little high--about 37" above the sole. That's showing 3'5" of flue. Considering the outboard position of the flue on what is a fairly wide midships section of the boat and I could see dipping the rail causing water over this area...it does have to have "some" height on it but I wasn't counting on more than two feet--which is still clear of the foremast boom, etc. So, that's maybe 5 ft or so total flue.

[redbopeep]

We have some pics where we can barely see the original stovepipe on deck--it did seem to be fat and did seem to have that bell shape on top of it...Here are the naval architect drawings of the stove. The 134 has a pipe in the middle back (oval) whereas this stove the boat originally had included dual fuel (shipmate gas) and was the same footprint but a bit taller seemingly for that extra row of gas fittings and nobs.




http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/339466268_64fb14e55b_o.jpg

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

That's about the length of flue that I have - but I can add another foot for the H head.

I reckon you can use 5" flue, but have a word with Andrew at Navigator Stove Works - he's the expert, here.

Flue position...

Where you DON'T want it is where it is in the downwash of air from a sail when close hauled on either tack.

Where you DO want it is in the slot - a low pressure area.

2ft clear of the deck should be fine but if you have a deckhouse handy you can turn the flue 90 degrees into a T piece and run it across the top of the deck house to either side of the deck house - known I believe as a schooner flue.

[redbopeep]

The stove pipe is located where it is about almost...1/3 way aft of the foremast and way outboard (the boat is 14' wide at that point and the stovepipe was about 20" inboard from the combing) so if we had the gaff wide on a run, there'd be some risk that the pipe would be aft of that sail but normally it is in front of that sail. If close hauled, it shouldn't see downwash from any sail unless we had a huge--huge! genoa up. But, we don't own a huge genoa.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Should be absolutely fine.

Good coal locker arrangement - lousy gas locker! ;)

[andrewe]

Not experienced on the shipboard stoves here but I spent some time building domestic ones. For firebricks I just cut them from the commercially sold ones at the local builders yard. Doing some experiments on my early models, I found 10cm (4") flues effective, even in short lengths as you might need in a boat. For cowls, in special cases I built Colt types. These produce a depression whichever way the wind blows and keep out the rain.
A

[redbopeep]

Should be absolutely fine.

Good coal locker arrangement - lousy gas locker! ;)

Boom! in the bilge, huh? Not to mention the hassle of getting the cylinders in and out. The fellow who originally had the boat built, Alexander Moffat, was into safety but yet didn't seem worried about gasses in the bilge. This boat had a gas-electric drive (2 20 kW gas gensets running a 25 KW electric drive) back in 1931--another opportunity for "kaboom" was the engine room! Also, the gas tanks were under all the settees in the dining saloon and main saloon! One leak and gasoline in the bilge. Luckily, none of that happened and it appears that he converted to diesel in 1937 or so. Don't exactly know when the dual fuel shipmate left the boat but we wouldn't want to bring back propane under any circumstance.

PS--about flue size--Andrew at NSW says the catalog shows it having 6" and we should find a 6" deck iron :( rather than go to 5" right off the bat.

[redbopeep]

I'm calling Andrew at NSW back--maybe I can talk him into telling me that 5" is ok :p

Else,

Pete at Port Townsend is going thru their patterns to see what they have in the way of a 6" deck iron. They'll have something.

Haven't contacted the folks at Lunenburg yet.

The 6" stainless is easy to come by as its standard.

Now, off to figure out how I'm gonna find a 6" "top" be it the "H" shape or otherwise... Humm...make that call to Andrew first :p

[Jay Greer]

I'm calling Andrew at NSW back--maybe I can talk him into telling me that 5" is ok :p

Else,

Pete at Port Townsend is going thru their patterns to see what they have in the way of a 6" deck iron. They'll have something.

Haven't contacted the folks at Lunenburg yet.

The 6" stainless is easy to come by as its standard.

Now, off to figure out how I'm gonna find a 6" "top" be it the "H" shape or otherwise... Humm...make that call to Andrew first :p
The Chandlery at the Woodenboat Foundation in Port Townsend can supply you with the Davey water deck irons in bronze.
Jay

[redbopeep]

The Chandlery at the Woodenboat Foundation in Port Townsend can supply you with the Davey water deck irons in bronze.
Jay

Thanks, Jay. I didn't realize that Davey made a 5" or 6" deck collar. I'll call the WBF in the am. :)

[Jay Greer]

Thanks, Jay. I didn't realize that Davey made a 5" or 6" deck collar. I'll call the WBF in the am. :)
Oops! I goofed! Davey only supplies irons in 4" or 9"diameters. Sorry!
Call Pete at the foundry.
Jay

[BETTY-B]

Dunatos (http://www.secondwave.cc/) had some used bronze ones a year and a half ago. I dont know if they ship or not, but I will be in Seattle in the coming days if you need help...

DAN

[redbopeep]

Dunatos (http://www.secondwave.cc/) had some used bronze ones a year and a half ago. I dont know if they ship or not, but I will be in Seattle in the coming days if you need help...

DAN

You know, timing is everything.

I called Port Townsend Foundry day before yesterday and Lunenburg Foundry this morning. Got a call back with sizes and pricing for bronze and galvanized from Lunenburg but not Port Townsend yet (Pete seems very busy) so I just ordered from Lunenburg Foundry so I'll have no problem using a 6" chimney with it.

Actually ordered the bronze 7" one ($185 CDN plus shipping and 2-3 weeks to get it shipped) so I can do as Andrew Craig-Bennett suggests. I had Lunenburg send me their catalogs--so it will be nifty to see what else they have that I've been in search of.

If I'd seen your post before making the order....but I figure I'll be happy with a casting from the folks at Lunenburg. :) Thanks for the offer of help!

Now to go get some of that refractory cement so I can play mud-pie next week :p

[PeterSibley]

Should you decide to use the recipe for refractory cement that I suggested , check with your pottery supplies store , in case there is any variation in local inputs , the cement fondue for instance .

[S B]

Most stoves, I have seen are built to take "splits" 1"X4 1/2"X9" hard fire brick. These are available from most refractory dealers, as are a multitude of rammable mixtures to suit any situation. They come in a plastic , ready to use, condition. If you want to make your own, a mixture of fire clay and kyanite grog 2/1, wet to workable condition with a liquid solution of sodium silicate' water glass' will work.Use rubber gloves. As to necking in the funnel, constricting the flue gas will increase its speed and heat transfer to the pipes. From 6 to 5" on a stove won't "probably" make this dangerous. Constricting the exit, for the gas , will decrease the likelyhood of down draft.

[redbopeep]

Most stoves, I have seen are built to take "splits" 1"X4 1/2"X9" hard fire brick. These are available from most refractory dealers, as are a multitude of rammable mixtures to suit any situation. They come in a plastic , ready to use, condition. If you want to make your own, a mixture of fire clay and kyanite grog 2/1, wet to workable condition with a liquid solution of sodium silicate' water glass' will work.Use rubber gloves. As to necking in the funnel, constricting the flue gas will increase its speed and heat transfer to the pipes. From 6 to 5" on a stove won't "probably" make this dangerous. Constricting the exit, for the gas , will decrease the likelyhood of down draft.

Thanks for the good advice. Its pretty much a "done deal" that I'll stick with 6" since I've ordered the deck collar/moat. So, its as big as the Shipmate folks originally designed it to be and I can hope it doesn't have a problem with down draft.

I haven't gone out to get my refractory cement/mix/whatever yet. But, I do figure that I'll take Andrew's (Navigator Stove Works) advice and make up little foam blocks that fit together like Lincoln logs and then use these for my templates to make molds.

The firebox length is about 17" by width of about 9" and though the box is taller, it appears that the fire bricks would have been 7" tall at least on the sides (there's a little wedge to hold the side ones in place) where as the back could be a bit taller (8.5").

Thanks again. :)

[redbopeep]

Next questions--besides the feet which have their own little dovetail into the stove and a place for a bolt at the base of the foot, there are two "wimpy" rings on each side of the stove that I assume are for using cable or something to tie-down the stove to a couple chainplates. The rings are ok, but the bent sheet metal used to keep them attached to the stove is the wimpy thing. I can re-do that with a flat steel plate on the inside and a bolt of some sort but...I'm scratching my head about what's a good location for chainplates to attach some cable/turnbuckles to.

First off, there's no stove platform in the galley yet and I suppose it could be constructed sort of like a set of engine stringers and we could cable to that. But the engine stringers go across the floors and this would be across the frames and I don't exactly like that.

In front of the stove (inboard), I can probably do a good job getting a cable attached to the floors, I think, but not wanting to use the frames as chainplate frames should I...attach a cable to the bilge stringer which is behind the stove and about at the LWL level (see previous drawing) or should I make up a small stringer that extends across 3 or 4 frames (like the bilge stringer) to attach a cable outboard of the stove? That brings me back to something like engine stringers on the frames...

Anyone have experience with this sort of thing? Thanks for your help.