GAS TURBINE ENGINE

[Charles Addison]

Does anybody know if a gas turbine engine (AKA jet engine) has been used on a private boat. They seem to be the cats meow commercially, and I know that there are some real small engines out there. Has anyone tried one, or know of one tried. If so what were the results. I'm particlarly intrested in reliability, economy, performance and installation costs. but, anything you have to pass will be welcomed.
Thank you,

[Billy Bones]

Well, there was that guy in Oz who made a gas turbine beer cooler, it worked well and was quite compact (bench top). Anyone remember that link?

As I understand them they spin very fast, and require ALOT of reduction gearing to get usable shaft speed and torque/HP. All that gearing might add a lot of noise and friction which would be impractical to overcome for the under-75000hp market (ie civilian). I also thought they sucked down alot of fuel.

Still, it's a fun and interesting concept.

[Smacksman]

Check out tractor pulling to see how they gear down the revs.
I seem to remember seeing one linked to a Hamilton Jet in Australasia. A pump could take higher revs than a prop.

[Norske1]

You want economy with a GAS TURBINE??

I have heard of places in Arizona, USA selling jet engines....military surplus...but have no specific information.

[nedL]

Chris Craft did actually build a production boat with gas turbine engines back in the early 1970's. It was a twin screw sport fisherman, about 37' as I remember. The easy way to identify it was the BIG, almost HUGE air intake vents on the sides of the hull, right about at the back end of the wheelhouse as I remember. I don't believe they built many of them, and I suspect that most of them were converted over to regular engines before long. I think they were known as high maintenance (take a mechanic along with you)and HUGE fuel hogs.

[Sailing-Randy]

My wife flies on a rescue helicopter here in farm country. Often they take the "ship" (their term) to fairs and what-not for PR. Inevitably some farmer will come up and want to see the engine. It's smaller than a small block chevy and develops something amazing like 750HP (if I remember the spiel right). At that point, most farmers want one in their tractor until they hear that it sucks something like 10 or more gallons of jet fuel (kerosene) an hour. The gear reduction is also another matter, but it can be done. On the A-Star this turbine engine runs both the blades on top as well as behind.

If anyone knows the facts on helicopters better than I, please step up to the plate.

At any rate, what NedL said about ChrisCraft makes sense.

[Donn]

http://www.turbineboat.com/push_off.JPG

http://www.turbineboat.com/

http://www.texs.com/magazine/images/Merc_turbine.jpg

http://www.texs.com/magazine/tsg_13.htm

.................................
Two Russian TV-2 117A , 1,700 HP gas turbine helicopter engines for sale.
500 hours since major overhaul, accessories, located in Santa Maria, CA. The pattern is similar to the GE 58 with an out put shaft RPM of 12,000. Price is $6,000 each. Logs and passports are available.
Export and shipping available worldwide!
gasturbine@projectboats.com
...............................................
The Shop-Vac Jet Engine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bill Dickup
Subject: A LESSON IN VOLITILITY
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:41:59 -0500

I was cleaning my pool last sunday when I heard several muffled explosions coming from my neighbors garage. Another neighbor and I ran to see what had happened. I had heard that sound once before as an off shore helicopter pilot working around natural gas platforms.

Apparently my neighbor was cleaning his boat gas tank and couldn't get the sediment out of the bottom. He decided to use his wet dry vac to remove the remainder of the sediment. When the remaining portion of the gasoline in the tank was vaporized and made its way up the hose to the motor, my neighbor had all the ingredients to have his very own gas turbine engine. Lucky for him there was only a small amount of vapor or he would have been the latest candidate for the darwin award.
........................................

http://www.firestrm.ca/tp_t53a.jpg

http://www.firestrm.ca/Turbines.htm

[Donn]

http://www.onspec.co.uk/ihs/squirt2.jpg

LITTLE SQUIRT a 5,500 lb, 20 foot runabout with a stepped W-form hull designed and tested in the early to mid 1960s by Boeing to explore the idea that a waterjet could propel a hydrofoil craft. The boat used a centrifugal pump producing a flow rate of 3,600 gallons of water per minute out the stern; hence its name. The pump was powered through a reduction gear by a 425 hp Boeing gas turbine engine (at that time Boeing had such a small gas turbine as one of their product lines and anticipated wide use on trucks and small craft).

http://www.onspec.co.uk/ihs/squirt.htm

[Donn]

http://members.aol.com/ssycatalog/pg90.jpg

The 17 ASHEVlLLE class Patrol Gunboats were built duringthe late 1960's for use in the coastal waterways and the Mekong delta of Vietnam, to help stem the flow of communist reinforcements and supplies coming from the north by inshore water transport. These 166 foot vessels were the first class of US Navy patrol craft to be powered by a combined diesel engine for cruising and a gas turbine engine for high speed maneuvers (CODAG).

[TomRobb]

Our telco central offices need to have generator backup for power. The one I worked in had two large railroad engine type diesels the size of delivery vans. Several years ago they were replaced with two International Harvester gas turbine gen-sets. The engine portion of the things was about the size of a peck basket and put out 50% more power than the diesels.
"Mileage", of course, was equally impressive :eek:

[ 02-22-2002, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: TomRobb ]

[PilotArt]

All I can add is if you could make 750hp on ten gallons of kerosene per hour, sign me up. :rolleyes: 50 to 70 would be more likely.

The little Honda Outboard wants six tenth's of a pound of fuel per horspower per hour, a turbine will need somewhat less than that, at high altitude and high power.

As a 'cost is no object' Standby engine (as they like to run at maximum power that heat [lots] will allow), it would give you speed for sure.

If you could turn most of that heat to steam, (for another turbine) you might have acceptable efficiency for the speed involved.

30 or 40 to one planetary gear sets are very small and effective to get prop shaft RPM where you want it.

The reliability factor (for Aircraft) is more than 100 times better than for reciprocating gasoline engines. All them back'n forth parts and vibration compared to one smooth turning part. At medium to high altitude the economy per mile is also much better overall with turbine equipment.

Art

[Henri]

Roger Penske's new boat DETROIT EAGLE has a combo engine/drive with a pair of diesels of about 3600hp each driving props, and a 5000hp Honeywell turbine hooked to a jet drive. He uses the diesels up to about 20knots, then turns on the turbine to pop up to 35+knots. This is a proven system as its been used in earlier boats.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by Sailing-Randy:
At that point, most farmers want one in their tractor until they hear that it sucks something like 10 or more gallons of jet fuel (kerosene) an hour. Unless I'm badly mistaken, I remember seeing an old (50's - 60's era) turbine-powered farm tractor in the Smithsonian 12 or 15 years ago. :cool:

Big and red, as I recall. Maybe an IH?

Wayne

[Don Z.]

Originally posted by PilotArt:

At medium to high altitude the economy per mile is also much better overall with turbine equipment.

ArtSo, basically, what you're saying is that this would only really work at high tide?

[dasboat]

This little number goes whooshing by during the Hilton july 4 fireworks in the delta.
Arneson(the engineer who invented the pool sweep)builds a bigger/badder one of these every couple of years. http://www.fototime.com/ADAE8CCCF6CEC75/standard.jpg

[ 02-23-2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: dasboat ]

[plimsol]

There is one real application of gas turbines to a real boat. William Garden dsigned a twin engine installation for a 60'+ yacht called "Nothingmore". It was built by Vic Franc's in Seattle. It used geared pod drives, Hydro-dyne- I beieve. The design is discussed in one of his yacht design books, the second one, if I am not mistaken. Mr. Garden discusses the merits and demerits of the installation. In the end, diesels are more economical and reliable.

[plimsol]

There is one real application of gas turbines to a real boat. William Garden dsigned a twin engine installation for a 60'+ yacht called "Nothingmore". It was built by Vic Franc's in Seattle. It used geared pod drives, Hydro-dyne- I beieve. The design is discussed in one of his yacht design books, the second one, if I am not mistaken. Mr. Garden discusses the merits and demerits of the installation. In the end, diesels are more economical and reliable.

[G. Schollmeier]

Turbine engines like to run. The maintenance goes up in proportion to the amount of down time.
This has been my experience with large aircraft turbines.
Gary

[PilotArt]

Originally posted by Don Z.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PilotArt:

At medium to high altitude the economy per mile is also much better overall with turbine equipment.

ArtSo, basically, what you're saying is that this would only really work at high tide?</font>[/QUOTE]Only that the economy would be better at 'high tide' and on a warmer day.

Gary is correct about maintenance going up as useage goes down but this is true of ALL powerplants.

One thing that the Diesels have in common with Turbines is that they both suck (no throttle valve) in all the air they can and control power output by increasing the fuel flow.

If you want (and can afford) to have 750hp in your Jet-Ski, then Turbine is the way to go (away) :eek: .

For most "real boats" the additional weight of a diesel is overshadowed by the amount of power it can squeeze out of a pound of fuel.

Even more significant than the price of the fuel in the huge cost of Turbine Technology is the exotic metal needed to 'take the heat'.

Just to overhaul a small TurboShaft can set you back a quarter millon or more, on the up-side, they only need half or less overhauls compared to recips. Back when fuel was cheaper, they were forcasting use of ceramic to produce cheap Turbine Powerplants.

Art

[brian.cunningham]

They make sense more when substained high output is the goal.

Yes you can get 1,000+hp big block V8 engines.
But automotive derived engines are not meant to stay at that power level for a long period of time. A turbine can put out that kind of power all day. Automotive engines run at different rpm for different situations. Turbines aren't to fond of that. They like to run at a consistent rpm

Maintainance? The airlines all switched to turbines because they required less maintainance than the 18 cylinder supercharged radial engines at use of the time.

The military likes them so they can run the same fuel in all thier engines. The diesel trucks are actually run on jet fuel.

[Charles Addison]

Thank you one and all.

I have expanded my vision in "Gas Turbines Part II", Please fell free to add any additional comments you may have.
Again,
Thank you all
Chuck Addison

[bobkaschak]

I have been testing aircraft and industrial gas turbines for 17 years in a jet engine test cell. Most of what I have tested are used in USCG ice breakers, and develop in the neighborhood of 47,000 shaft horse power (that will get you to your favorite fishing spot quickly). What you would want would be a gas turbine unit from an auxillary power unit (APU), or a ground power unit. Look for some web sites that sell surplus USAF equipment. Look for a unit called a -60, or a -95. These are small centrifugal compressor turbines. Probably at least 300 hp. They run off of Jet-A fuel (kerosene). I guess they are fairly efficeint compared to the power output. The smaller they are, the faster they turn. (up to 60-75,000 rpm. A lot of them require a 28vdc power source from ni-cads (something to consider) Questions?
Bob Kaschak
HighPeakHiker@aol.com

[WWheeler]

New Canadian frigates currently on station in the Indian Ocean, as part of fleet escort for USN, use twin Boeing 747 turbines as pursuit engines. (diesel is used for normal cruising usage). Part of their achievements has been to blow up an Arab dhow that was filled with heroin. Is that a fishing smack?

They can get over 35 mph if I remember correctly. Ok, so this isn't a private application, but they can really push along.

[stef]

How about this one for size www.microturbine.com (http://www.microturbine.com) They have a little 29 kW unit that will consume 3 gal/hour of liquid fuel and is under 300 lbs with dc voltage at real levels. They were originally developed to run on low value gas streams as energy recovery units and are now (appearantly) being marketed to the alternative fuel vehicle industry. It is quite a web site and commercial concept.

This is a modest amount of power compared to the values discussed before and also a claimed 20,000 hour overhaul level. But as always, if you have to ask the price........

I also hear from my R/C modeler types that there are also real turbines that fit into scale planes. I will have to do more digging to find that one. But it would not be big enough for a real sized boat but a model!?

Best regards

Stefan

[ 02-25-2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: stef ]

[stef]

:eek: You could also try http://www.gas-turbines.com for some other variants.

I can't seem to locate the model engine site. However there are quite a few home builders of turbine engines out there beyond the deep end. Search under model turbine engines.

Best regards

Stefan

[Chadd Hamilton]

Ok, someone mentioned the jet powered beer cooler... http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

[stef]

Here are a few more links:

http://mdavis19.tripod.com/turbine/ a home brew turbine engine

www.amtjets.com (http://www.amtjets.com) a model jet engine site

www.elliot-turbo.com (http://www.elliot-turbo.com) a commercial turbo generator site

It seems that small scale gas turbine applications are not yet prime time for real sized boats yet. That would indicate oppourtunities for some! :cool:

Best regards

Stefan

[rdapron]

Since Brain C did not include a link to his post in the Misc. section and also that of his website, I will. Go to:

http://204.176.40.23/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=002842
http://home.columbus.rr.com/n8wct/

Amazing…

rob