shellac for bright work?

[shaunbarrymcmillan]

I continue to consider ways to make wood boat maintenance simplier. One thing some poeple in the area might do (due to the rain in British Columbia) is paint bright work. Its quite likely that I may eventually buy a wood boat if I find what I want ( heavier displacement, full keel, cutter)

I have a wood bench on my patio in the condo we recently bought. I bought some shellac and used a pint to coat the bench the first time-about 4 months ago. The wood is soaked up the shellac and it finished hard.

I just put two more coats on the bench before winter. Again, the wood just soaked it up and it finished hard.

So, rather than deal with varnish- I thought to use shellac or a hard tung oil- you never have to remove it-you might just add coats. Eventually it might need removal to bare wood but it seems that this would ocur much less than varnish. Is this correct or am I wrong?

Feedback would be appreciated-thanks.

[Bob Cleek]

You're wrong.

Now, consider this... how long do you think that people have been putting varnish on outdoor wood and wooden boats? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, somebody might have tried shellac for the same purpose before? You don't really think you are the first person to think of using shellac, do you? Can you come up with any possible reasons why people use varnish on their brighwork, rather than shellac or tung oil?

(Hint: Neither shellac nor tung oil hold up in sunlight very well.)

(Hint: Tung oil is difficult to apply in its "natural state" and takes forever to dry.)

[LarryR]

I was told that long oil varnish is flexible; when the wood moves with the changing moisture it can, to some extent, accept that movement without failing. I've used shellac often as a woodworker, but not for exterior use. It's reputed to have very poor durability with water exposure, but dewaxed, unbleached shellac is better than most people would expect -- that's not the issue. Shellac is harder and more brittle; I would expect that, when the wood moved, the shellac would fracture (this is less of a problem with furniture protected in a house). Although shellac is very good at reducing moisture exchange, once the film fails, your protection is gone: you will be in a perpetual maintenance cycle. As Bob points out, there is a reason why you can purchase "spar varnish."

Very respectfully,
Larry

[Fitz]

Old timers in Maine shellacked the bottom of their wood and canvas canoes instead of paint, and took a similar approach to yours and just recoated when necessary. The reasoning was that the shellac bottom was easier to maintain if it got scratched up on Maine streams than a painted bottom.

The bottom of the canoes may not have seen as much UV as your brightwork.

Shellac can turn milky when exposed to water.

I use shellac on the interior of wood canoes as a sealer and then varnish - saves some dry time and looks great.

Fitz.

[fergus.moran@gmail.com]

It will craze. It will change color in spots. It may turn milky in others. It will need a blow torch to get it off. But go ahead if you like - that's how oldtimers learned in the first place ... just dont burn the bost down. Fritz

[Scott Rosen]

Some people use shellac as a sealer under paint, just in case they ever want to finish the wood bright later. The shellac keeps the paint out of the wood grain.

Shellac has no UV resistance. The sun will destroy it fast. As others noted, it doesn't like to be wet, which is not a good feature for a boat finish.

[pcazeles]

The description given on this site in UK (with a reference to a Wooden Boat Magazine article):

http://www.tradboats.com/paintmisc.html

seems to contradict some of this post replies. I didn't read the article (my subscription to the WBM started from April!!) but it would be useful to get feedback from people who have used Shellac in different situations.

Personally, there are small areas of my brighwork where the varnish is gone or almost gone and I'm wondering if I can use Shellac as a sealant after sanding the area to bare wood and before varnishing.

Also below the deck, will Shellac protect against rot if there are water leaks from rain?

Thank you for any feedback.
Patrick.

[chainyank]

[quote=Fitz;1939638]Old timers in Maine shellacked the bottom of their wood and canvas canoes instead of paint, and took a similar approach to yours and just recoated when necessary. The reasoning was that the shellac bottom was easier to maintain if it got scratched up on Maine streams than a painted bottom.[end quote]

fitz-

But I am guessing the canvas if "filled" first with an oil based paint with silica sand? I would not want people to think you can fill canvas with shellac:eek:, that would take ages, and send people down a very bad path.

That said yes shellac is used on W/C canoe bottoms, and it works very well, just a light sand (if that) and a new coat in the spring and its ready to go. The point is this is a sacraficial bottom coat, not bright work....... IMHO

[Fitz]

Yes, chainyank. The shellac goes on the canvas filler instead of paint below the waterline. Thanks for clarifying.

I know a guy that treated his canoe this way. He touches it up periodically, but it performs very well.

Fitz

[Scott Rosen]

The description given on this site in UK (with a reference to a Wooden Boat Magazine article):

http://www.tradboats.com/paintmisc.html

seems to contradict some of this post replies. I didn't read the article (my subscription to the WBM started from April!!) but it would be useful to get feedback from people who have used Shellac in different situations.

Personally, there are small areas of my brighwork where the varnish is gone or almost gone and I'm wondering if I can use Shellac as a sealant after sanding the area to bare wood and before varnishing.

Also below the deck, will Shellac protect against rot if there are water leaks from rain?

Thank you for any feedback.
Patrick.

The article talks about two uses for shellac. Sealing the hoodends of planks for drying lumber. Yep. It's good for that. But that's not bright work. And also for use between layers of a double planked hull, in which a very thick solution of shellac is used as a bedding compound.

As for brightwork -- well you certainly don't have to believe anything I write. You should try it on your own brightwork and let us know how it turns out.

[shaunbarrymcmillan]

Heh Bob-Maybe behind your computer half way round the world you can talk like that- but if you talked like that to my face- you'd get a broken nose pal.

[JimD]

Heh Bob-Maybe behind your computer half way round the world you can talk like that- but if you talked like that to my face- you'd get a broken nose pal.

Does that mean you're going to shellac your brightwork?

[shaunbarrymcmillan]

No I certainly won't---- based on the good information that I got from the forum- it sure is nice to get information from knowledgeable people on the site-it is a good way for "old salts" to mentor a guy like me.



I really have a great deal of general respect for senoir members who offer kindly advice and know more than I will ever forget.

Sincerely Shaun McMillan

[LarryR]

Fergus,

Two finishes that are often said to be hard to remove are shellac and milk paint (casein). (Shellac will dissolve in alcohol, if you have time.) But both react chemically to common ammonia. The reaction is not quite instantaneous, but it's very fast; then wash it off with a wet sponge and then alcohol. You don't need industrial stuff, just household grade. But use the ammonia outside with a good breeze -- you don't want it trapped in the room you're in unless you have a very good vapor mask.

Good luck,
Larry

[Bob Cleek]

"Heh Bob-Maybe behind your computer half way round the world you can talk like that- but if you talked like that to my face- you'd get a broken nose pal."

ROTFLMAO! Naw, you'd probably get the same answer either way, both with a smile on my face, and my nose ain't been broken yet. Then again, if you asked me to my face and you looked like the kind of guy who'd try to break my nose, I'd probably tell you I had no idea what the answer might be. Which would you rather it be? Spend enough time around boatyards trying to learn the tricks of the trade and you'll get answers than will leave you wanting to do more than break some old fart's nose! That's how most of us learned what little we know. Don't take it personally. Let the calluses built up a little.

BTW, with regard to using it as canoe bottom "dope," I have used orange shellac on fancywork quite a bit and in some occasions in outdoor applications. I had some fancywork on my boom gallows stanchions which soaked in orange shellac and then continued applying it until a thick shiny "beetle back brown" coating built up. It worked well for a while, but in the sun it soon dulls and then begins to crack, not a lot unlike cheap plastic does in the sun. Further applications of thinned shellac, worked well into it, would soften the stuff and fill the cracks. In the end, it was more trouble than it was worth. The shellac build up got too great and there really wasn't any way to get it off other than a lot of rubbing and rinsing with alcohol soaked towels. I gave up, cut the crap off and redid the fancywork, then applied one coat of shellac to seal the cord and painted it all white on top of that. Much better result.

[Battenkiller]

"Heh Bob-Maybe behind your computer half way round the world you can talk like that- but if you talked like that to my face- you'd get a broken nose pal."

ROTFLMAO! Naw, you'd probably get the same answer either way, both with a smile on my face, and my nose ain't been broken yet.

Yeah, I got quite the chuckle out of that one myself. Threats are pretty easy over the Internet as well, but I've never received a cyberpunch that hurt too bad.:cool:

Shellac is great stuff, but one thing that it just won't do is to give lasting exterior coatings. It's a great sealer, however, under the finish since it renders the wood quite waterproof.

I've used shellac in my trade for over 30 years (it is a principal ingredient in musical instrument varnishes) and have a great amount of appreciation for its qualities. Easy brush application is not one of those qualities. Sure, you can slap it on, but it won't level out like a good spar varnish, not even close.

For violin varnishes we use other ingredients to improve its flow out, essential oils like elemi and spike oil of lavender and venetian turpentine and other softer resins thrown into the mix (all very secret, so don't ask;)).

For canoe bottoms it serves a different purpose, like someone said, a sacrificial bottom. It protects the paint and helps the canoe slip over rocks easier. Every year you just brush on a couple more coats, let it dry and you're off. It's a Maine guide thing.