int. 14 - more

[lincoln]

Thank you folks for your helpful replies - even the cranky and smart aleck ones.

In regard to the latter - let's talk "intrinsic value". I saw a run up in the Sunday newspaper for home improvemnent stuff, one product featured was a Jacuzzi tub with a built in TV screen and floating remote - $20k! How then does a floating heirloom relate?

I met a young fellow in Mt. last month who builds a beautiful wood river dory, and is trying to make a living for himself and family doing it. $14k - boat, oars, anchor, cover, trailer - He had the "working my ass off, and going broke " look on his face. What a heartbreaker.

Amazing what things our culture rewards.

So I guess the $10k value for the I 14 is unrealistic, huh? What then, $5k...$1k. Britney Spears spends more than that on breast enhancement. Talk about intrinsic value.

[Art Read]

I think the gentleman you refer to contributed to one our discusions here recently. About making a living building boats in fact. Anybody got a link? As for the "value" of your boat, it's hard to judge through a computer screen, but the fact is, it's worth whatever somebody else is willing to pay! If it "looks" good, has some "history" or significance and is somewhat rare, it might surprise you how much somebody is willing to pay. If it's not hard to find another one just like it, well you won't get much more than the "going rate". Maybe you could put it up on E-Bay with an absurdly high "reserve" price just to see what happens? I know a guy who put an ad in the paper for his 90 year old mother's 1960 something Buick. He asked some ridulous amount just to see what kind of "offers" he might get. He got sixteen calls the first day from "collectors" who wound up bidding against each other! I think he eventually got twice what he'd asked for...

[ 05-01-2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

One problem here is that the I-14 is a class racing boat in a very competitive class as opposed to some nice old cruiser with a lot of character. The vast majority of people sailing I-14's or any other hotly contested class of small boats (Thistles, Fireballs, Scots, Starboats, 470's etc. etc.) want a current, fast boat. Nostalgia doesn't mean beans to most of them. Unfortunately, though they might look at your boat and say "Thats really cool" they know that, performance-wise, it can't even approach the one they're sailing now, so unless they happen to want an old one as a curiosity, just for fun, they probably aren't interested.

If the hull is stiff enough and not overweight, it might be possible to replace the mast (skinny spruce masts break under the kind of loads these people put on them) re-rig everything and put $2,000-$3,000 worth of new sails on it to arrive at a boat that might do OK, but will probably never really compete at the top levels. There are a few classes where boat #1 is still sailing and racing, but not generally winning - so the option of buy it, convert it and race it isn't likely to happer either.

This leaves a potential market consisting of people who either really want to sail that class of boat but are broke and would take an old one if it was cheap enough and people who aren't interested in racing it - people who like the fact that it's old and are willing to spend the money for it. There are people like this around, but they aren't lurking behind every bush and even they will put a reasonable dollar limit on how much they'll spend. The guy expecting to get $8,000-$10,000 for the restored I-14 is dreaming. It just isn't going to happen. Chances are, somebody will buy it cheap, make it float and use it for two or three seasons until it is too far gone to use or salvage.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but my experience restoring old boats has been that you do it because you want to - for yourself, but making money on your work is pretty rare. If you can sell it later and recover the cost of the materials that you put into it, you're doing pretty well. Yes, there are some pros who make a living restoring old wooden boats, but they're in a different league from you and I working out in our garages - and even many of them just barely make a profit.

[TomRobb]

Re "smart aleck" and intrinsic value.
It was not a smart aleck response. IMHO there is no intrinsic value. Theologicaly all value is derived from God. The value/cost truely is what somebody pays for it. You may find average prices on the open market. You may find manufacturers suggested retail prices, discounted prices, wholesale prices, hot on-the-streetcorner prices.
In the end it's "worth" what you're willing to pay.
I say again, There is no intrinsic valuefor any thing (object extended in space)
Tom

[ 05-01-2002, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: TomRobb ]

[Ken Hall]

Tom gets an A in economics....

[Alan D. Hyde]

There is no debating definitions, except as to utility. Words mean what we agree they will mean.

"Intrinsic value," as used in the investment world often refers to the Graham & Dodd method of looking at a company's balance sheet, and ascertaining the worth of its assets, and comparing that worth to the worth per share of stock at current market prices.

In a similar way, we may say that food, clothing or shelter have "intrinsic value," while the green printed pieces of paper that we call dollar bills have only indirect value, that is, value to the extent another credits them with value. We can't eat them or shelter in them or use them to make other items, except that another agrees they are a token for value.

To a man on the coast of colonial New England, who lived on codfish, his fishing boat had intrinsic value; to a modern-day yachtsman, that same boat might only be worth what he could get for it.

This is convoluted, I know, but perhaps a little light comes glimmering through the smoke...

Alan

[Donn]

There shouldn't be any smoke surrounding the meaning of intrinsic value, or it's existence. If we agree on a definition of value, intrinsic is merely a modifier that describes the genesis of the value.

If value can be ascribed to the nature of something, without the consideration of outside influence (extrinsic), then the value is intrinsic. An example could be opposing thumbs.

If value is described and measured by outside forces such as supply and demand, it is not intrinsic. An example could be gold.

It's quite obvious that both forms of value exist.

PS...it should be clear that the investment world's use of the term intrinsic value, is a mis-use.

[ 05-01-2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: donnwest ]

[TGreaves]

"A cynic is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." - Oscar Wilde

[Rob H]

It would probably help the value of this boat if it had some history or pedigree. Was it designed or built by someone famous? Did it win any major races? Did someone who went on to become a famous sailor learn the basics aboard it?
Those are the sorts of hooks that add "value" to what may otherwise be just a tired old dinghy on a trailer.
The nature of value is highly subjective. This could be someone's dream boat, you never know!

[Donn]

"The nature of value is highly subjective."

Absolutely true. The value of anything is subject to endless discussion.

The origin of value, however, is not subjective. Intrinsic value cannot be quantified...extrinsic value can, and is.

Gold, silver, platinum, real estate, and boats have extrinsic value. Opposed thumbs, brain synapses, and southern exposure for a garden, have intrinsic value.

Some value can be quantified, some cannot.

[John R Smith]

Todd Bradshaw has all the points that matter here. Because this is a racing dinghy we are talking about, and an old one, it has very little desirability or value to today's dinghy sailors.

International 12s and 14s are uncomfortable, rather tender, and not much use for pottering up the creek with your family. If it can't win races any more, then no-one in their right mind is going to give $10,000 for it, even if that is what it costs to restore it.

I used to ride old racing motorcycles on the road for fun, but then I'm pretty crazy smile.gif

John

[lincoln]

What value has come out of asking a simple question of what a boat might be worth. There are so many bright people out there, with such good thoughts (though some mis-directed). So, there has been much value (whether intrinsic or otherwise) to me from asking a question. This could be only that I feel God's love for my brother and the sincerity of his answer to my question (whether I agree with the response or not ) which someone took the time to offer, or I could I be rewarded financially at some point in the future because of some connection made through asking a question?

Good will, it is usually included in a list of potential assets for a company in its' Articles of Incorporation, isn't it? What is the value of "good will"?

What is the value of "messing about" in a boat. It seems that mostly good comes from it. Even the disasters are adventures. I can teach my daughter to sail, even if I can't sell it. Maybe she'll meet some rich fellow while sailing someday and...

Anyway I'd still rather have it than a jacuzzi with a built-in TV and floating remote.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by lincoln:
. . . Anyway I'd still rather have it than a jacuzzi with a built-in TV and floating remote.I'd rather have a 72-hour flu bug than a jacuzzi with a built-in TV and floating remote. tongue.gif

Wayne