"Canvas" colored Sunbrella?

[redbopeep]

I'm getting ready to make hatch covers, sail covers, etc for our boat. So...went to the Sunbrella website to see if there's an obvious "canvas" color.

I'm thinking "linen" is that color. But could be "canvas parchment"

Does anyone here have a canvas color or pale, pale, tan color sailcover that they like? What color/brand fabric is it?

Thanks!

[Electra]

The color Sunbrella calls "linen" is actually the color tan and is a most attractive compliment to bright finished mahogany or teak.

[Dave Davis]

"Toast" is a real popular color around here for traditional boats, or the green canvas look=alike that's called "Seaspray".

[JimConlin]

I like 'Toast'.

[Todd Bradshaw]

If you really want it to look like raw cotton canvas color, I think the Canvas Parchment will be closer. "Toast" is pretty close to the color of a new pair of tan chinos. "Linen" is lighter than Toast and about what you get after those chinos have been run through the washer for a few seasons. There is also a "Linen Tweed", but it's newer than my Sunbrella swatch card, so I don't have a sample of it.

My biggest reservation with the Canvas Parchment would probably be that it will show dirt more than Linen or Toast would. Same thing with Oyster (which always looked like dirty white to me) and "Natural", which is for all practical purposes white. I built a full cover for my Starboat that was natural on top and Black Cherry (burgundy) on the sides and the lighter top section looked old and dirty years before the sides ever did. Even though they might not look exactly like cotton, the Toast or Linen will probably look better a few years down the road and quite elegant on a wooden boat.

[Concordia...41]

Drats - just (like last week) thew away two Sunbrella sample folders... :(

[Rey Ritner]

Good Morning,

I'm the owner of a small commercial/residential awning company in Vermont. I deal with all types of fabric, perhaps I can assist you.

Let me know,

Rey

[Rapelapente]

I just remade my sails covers in june, with "Oyster"marine sunbrella , not a dirty white for me, but a discreet shade "coton like"fabric. It was the first time I stiched, in my wife's shop (she's stylist) and found that work easy and interresting.
I made the main sail cover in two separated parts, to set it easier.
I loved this job, and will continue with skylight cover.

[Howard Sharp]

I used "Linen" for a boat cover, boom tent etc, and it looks great. And I think the lighter color keeps things cooler.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Back in the 1980's The North Face experimented with combinations of light and dark colored fabrics on some of their tents. The claim was that the two colors would heat up differently and increase air circulation inside the structure and that it actually made a difference. Since stagnant air under a boat cover can increase the chances of mold I've always wondered about trying the idea on a cover or boom tent to see if it seemed to make a difference. It's on the list of things to try some time when the opportunity happens along and I'm building a cover with a fair amount of air inside of it. If nothing else, maybe the two-tone color scheme will look spiffy.

[Concordia...41]

I think this is oyster white (and I'm still wishing I hadn't thrown away those Sunbrella sample sheets...)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8d732b3127ccec54e9535829100000040O08BYtG7lsxbg9 vPhA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D480/ry%3D320/

The canvas guy put the sail covers on Monday, but it took me until Thursday to realize it :rolleyes:

Even more unfortunate is the fact that he assumed I was putting that winch back on.... :(

[Todd Bradshaw]

The deal with Oyster and "Natural" (which is what the call white Sunbrella) or any other really light shade is to carefully follow the manufacturer's suggestions for fairly frequent rinsing, cleaning on a regular basis and re-treatment. If you let it go a little bit too far and dirt or mildew get a foothold down in the nooks and crannies, you will have a heck of a time getting rid of the stains - if you even can get rid of them. 303 Fabric Guard is your best friend when it comes to keeping them nice.

[redbopeep]

Hi, All! I finally settled on a color (Sunbrella Toast) that I liked and wouldn't show too much dirt. But after doing all kinds of research on Sunbrella and other fabrics I saw a couple things that were confusing and interesting to me.

First, I learned that there are actually some treated and dyed canvas duck materials out there that are more waterproof, more breathable, and more abrasion resistant than Sunbrella is. Duh...I know, there's that whole UV thing--right? Well, when talking to a couple vendors I heard the treated/dyed canvas would last 5 years-8 years and sometimes longer in the sun/on a boat. I also heard that the Sunbrella lasts...5 years-10 years depending on color and using proper chafe protection where abrasion could be a problem.

OK--what gives here? I though that Sunbrella was a product that lasted AT LEAST 10 years? It is not? Considering I do my own sewing (and love to sew) the price differential between treated/dyed canvas duck (#10) and Sunbrella is big. The 60" dyed duck available at about $7/yard and the 60" Sunbrella available at more like $17/yard.

Also--I see there are two different Sunbrella fabrics that people often use for sailcovers, etc--one is specifically for marine use (8400 series) the other being a standard outdoor fabric. Yet, all the local boat upholstery shops use the regular (not 8400 series) Sunbrella for sailcovers, etc.
Considering I only see the 8400 series in the low $20-some dollar range, I can see why folks economize with the regular Sunbrella awning fabric but I wonder if that's the right thing to do.

I hope someone on this board has experience (recent) with the treated, dyed canvas duck and can tell me, from their own experience, if that is a viable thing to use rather than Sunbrella. The same for regular awning Sunbrella vs the Marine 8400 series stuff.

Thanks! all :)

[Todd Bradshaw]

As far as I know, the different numbers indicate the fabric width and whether or not it's regular Sunbrella (water resistant, yet breathable - the 80" wide fabric in this group would be the 8,000 series), Sunbrella plus (urethane coated to be basically waterproof and non-breathable - the 80" wide fabric in this one would be the 8,400 series), or Sunbrella Supreme, which is, I believe, available in fancier patterns and weaves but similarly coated to be waterproof (only available up to 60" wide and those are labeled the 9,400 series fabrics - designed for something like an exposed couch on a pontoon boat). These are all exterior-grade fabrics. The more common 46" wide and 60" wide versions of the same things would have correspondingly different series numbers. There are also interior-grade fabrics are made for bunks, upholstery and interior trim not exposed to the weather, but we're not going to bother with them at the moment.

I think where you are running afoul, as it were, is with your definitions. All three of the exterior series fabrics listed above are marine grade and in common use as such. It's simply a question of which one is best for any particular use. The traditional, uncoated, water-resistant, breathable version of Sunbrella (like the 8,000 series and it's comparable other widths) is by far the most popular and very often, the best choice. Breathability is just as important, and often may be even more important for things like sail covers, cockpit covers, hatch covers or covers over varnished wooden trim, than the absolute water protection offered by a coated fabric. When it comes to battling mildew, mold or water damage (common problems on a boat) a cover that will let the boat or boat-part dry out and allow humidity inside to escape is usually more effective at keeping the boat in good shape than trying to absolutely block out all the water during the rainstorm and subsequently trapping a lot of humidity inside for days, once the storm passes.

The standard-grade Sunbrella is surprisingly water resistant. If your cover leaks during a big storm, it won't be much and the breathability will allow things to dry pretty quickly after the storm. Water resistance for fabrics, raingear, etc. is usually measured using old government standards that shoot water at fabric at higher pressure than you are likely to run into. An open-weave, non-coated fabric like regular Sunbrella won't meet that standard to be labeled "waterproof", but it's pretty close. Sew a cover with anti-wicking thread, clean, maintain and re-proof the cover as needed and you shouldn't have any trouble riding out a storm under it.

The coated "Sunbrella Plus" (like the 8,400 series) is waterproof and doesn't breathe. It is best used on something like a dodger or fabric cockpit enclosure, where it offers somewhat improved water protection in a really hard downpour or heavy splash or water-pooling situation, but one where both sides of the fabric are open to the air (rather than up against an expensive sail or varnished surface) and some ability to ventillate the space will be available when conditions improve. It is generally far less desirable as a fabric for boat covers, sail covers, etc. where its non-breathable nature may lead to mildew and mold. This is why most of your local companies generally use regular Sunbrella, rather than the coated stuff. It's not so much a cost thing, it's a matter of picking the right product to do the job best.

Cotton canvas - 10 oz Sunforger (used to be called "Vivatex") is the best outdoor cotton canvas on the market and about the only one worth fooling with. Cotton actually has pretty good UV resistance - maybe not quite as good as the acrylics, but quite respectable. Where cotton tends to be inferior is in mildew and mold resistance. These little buggers will actually eat the stuff and about the only way to stop this is to saturate the cloth with some sort of poison (like arsenic, for example). Synthetics can also grow mildew and mold in places that trap water and be stained, but it won't weaken the fabric. Cotton usually shrinks 3%-4% or more as it ages, which makes cutting good-fitting covers that stay that way more difficult. It won't hot-cut, so unlike synthetics, any cut seam has to be bound, rolled under and sewn or otherwise protected from eventually raveling out. It is more abrasion resistant than most synthetics like Sunbrella, but in most cases a good cover is probably going to need proper chafe patching in certain places with either material and the difference would just be a matter of how quickly the inevitable chafed holes would appear.

You can certainly make a very decent cover from cotton canvas and save some money on the fabric. Personally, I'd rather use Sunbrella as I find the fitting/shrinking part of cotton really annoying (Do you want your custom cover to fit properly now or later?) Most boat cover stuff isn't as adjustable as a hunter's wall tent or teepee would be as they age and saggy boat covers tend to trap or pool water - leading to leaks, mold, etc.

Finally, certain structures on certain boats should ideally be made of flame-retardant fabric. Cotton tends to burn like a wax-coated candle wick and burning synthetics are known to "flame-drip" - which is just what it sounds like and pretty scary to see. Both Sunbrella and Sunforger are available in flame retardant grades for those uses.

[redbopeep]

Thank you for your detailed response, Todd! I very much like the idea of using a "natural" fabric (like the cotton canvas) but understand exactly the "fit" issue which might drive me crazy, too.

The "Toast" color of sunbrella looks like it will be a nice match to the boat. I'd already purchased 10 yards to "play with" knowing that I can always change my mind as 10 yards is a drop in the bucket of what I need for all the sailcovers, etc. Laying it out over the boom, the color looks good and all but I did question that whole thing about the more waterproof fabric. Now I understand.

For my purposes, the regular sunbrella will work find as I'm talking about sailcovers and hatch covers (over varnish) not awnings which are open to air on both sides. Eventually, I"ll be making awnings to be used to cover most of the boat (against sun) when we're at an anchorage for example--but I had the impression that lighter weight fabric would do best for this rather than the heavier Sunbrella fabrics. Storing away the folded awnings will be an issue for us.

Thanks again!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Oddysey polyester (I think they're up to OdysseyIII by now) makes a pretty decent suncover and comes in some nice shades, similar to Sunbrella. Texture is fairly similar but it's only 6.5 oz. (compared to 11 for Sunbrella) and it's less expensive. Sunbrella Shade cloth is also 6.5 oz. weight and sort of a more open, meshy weave. It looks interesting, but I haven't played with it yet. Either one would be a lot easier to handle and stow for a big shade than regular Sunbrella.

I did a full sunshade/awning once for a Farrier F24 trimaran (18' wide). The Odyssey worked quite well and the storage bag was a reasonably small size. I found that it pays to abandon the idea of running the panels square to the edges on big rectangular sections though. If you run your panel seams and threadlines 45 degrees to the rectangular shape of the awning, it will pitch tighter and it's more adjustable. Bill Moss of Moss Tents pioneered the idea of tarps cut diagonally and which would pitch tightly back in the 1970s with a camping shelter that I believe he called the "Parawing". For big hunks of relatively stretchy fabric, it really makes a difference.

[redbopeep]

Thanks for the tip on Oddysey polyester. That sounds a more reasonable weight for us to use.

I loved the Moss tarps made back in the 70's/80's. I know what you mean about being able to get a tighter tarp on the diagonal. I've made a few things for use when camping modeled after Moss tarps and used the diagonal to advantage.

What materials do you prefer to use for reinforcing corners/spots where the Sunbrella can chafe? Do you just double up/triple up the cloth (as is done with sails) or choose a better more abrasion resistant material?

Thanks for your help. :)

[JimConlin]

Todd-
Regarding tarps like the Moss 'Parawing' shelters, are they made with straight-sided panels, or does it take some shaping to get that contour?

[Todd Bradshaw]

I used to buy a few yards of sturdy, vinyl impregnated nylon from time to time for backing-up areas prone to chafe. It looks like light rubber raft or truck tarp material and is what's used on a lot of waterproof dry bags. In later years, I discovered that hunks of heavy-weight Dacron sailcloth worked just as well and I usually had a supply of otherwise useless small scraps on hand and didn't need to buy anything. Strips of Dacron backing up any edges that had a layer of snaps or other mechanical fasteners made a major difference in preventing the snaps from pulling out as the cover aged. Sunbrella starts out quite stiff and gets softer and softer as it ages. Since it's not very abrasion resistant to start with, I could never see much reason to use additional layers of the same stuff for chafe patches. Some cover builders use bits of leather for chafe patching, but as far as I've seen, it pretty soon gets stiff, dries out and eventually falls apart out in the weather.

Jim, I'm pretty sure that the Parawing was just straight panels on a diagonal. I was a Moss tent dealer and I heard through the grapevine that when he first tried to patent the idea, the patent people said "You can't patent a tarp. there are already thousands of them out there". Supposedly, he had to take two squares of fabric into their offices and demonstrate the difference in "pitchability" between one that was cut with the fabric square to the tarp's edges and one cut diagonally before they would issue the patent.

The shaping that can be done on this type of ridge seam is called a catenary cut. The edges of the pieces on either side of the ridge are cut as slightly hollowed curves and then sewn together, rather than just joining two straight-edged panels. This is very common, especially on tents and other items where the cloth is cut square to the shape, rather than on a diagonal. It builds in both the ability to get that square-cut roof tighter, and also some shock absorbancy (makes it less likely for a wind gust to pull out your tent stakes at 3:00 AM). You can see its effect most easily on something like a pup tent shape. If you make one tent with a catenary cut and another with a straight cut, the ridge line on the catenary tent will be a slightly hollowed curve where the pup tent will be straight. In use, the catenary tent requires a lot less tension on the lines at either end of the ridge to keep the tent pitched tightly. This reduces sagging, flapping and noise compared to the straight ridge.

You could certainly combine the two technologies and build a diagonal cut that also had a catenary ridge. On a big awning, it might be a noticable difference, but I haven't tried it. It might also give a somewhat more elegant profile. Some boat sunshades, though functionally quite practical, tend to look a bit like the Beverly Hillbillies went boating when pitched. A graceful catenary ridge might add a little bit of architectural elegance to the design.