Herreshoff 12 1/2 question

[Old Sailor]

Just finished building a model of the 12 1/2 and for the size of the hull she looks undercanvased. Any thoughts?
Old Sailor

[esingleman]

She was designed to be a boat for the use of children on buzzards bay, where the chop and breeze can be stiff. Therefore she was designed to be very stable. I wouldn't want my kids out there with too much sail, and not the sense to reef it up.

What is interesting is the BB-14 by LF Herreshoff uses the same sail plan in a two foot longer boat.

[Jay Greer]

LFH used the basic proportions of Nathaniel's 12 1/2 when he designed the H28. Again, this boat does not have a very generous sail plan, just one that is safe and adequate for most of the East Coast chop and squalls without having to reef.
Here on the West Coast, it is my belief that the H28 would benefit from a loftier rig that will afford greater luff length to the jib and main. The mizzen will remain the same height. The new rig I am designing for "Bright Star" is four feet taller than the origional .
Jay

[johnw]

The H-12 1/2 is not terribly fast for a 16-footer, if you are comparing it to something like a Snipe or an Albacore, but those are racing dinghies. It's a very capable little boat, and sails quite well for its size and type.

[Zane Lewis]

Having sailed both the BB14 and H28. They are undercanvased.

We had an overlapping genoa on ours for under 12 knots.
Having said that racing against trailersailers (This was in the early 1980's) in under 7knts we where as fast or faster than most 20 footers as long as we kept the weight forward and did not move around. A very easliy driven hull being narrow compaired to most Trailersailers. Again once it got over 18ktns we became compeditive again. We started to heel and that large lump of lead started to work and again being narrow we could work to windward through a chop.
http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Little%20Mischief/th_bb147.jpg
http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Little%20Mischief/th_bb145.jpg

The H28 was similar. Not to great to windward but boy could it reach and run. Dad added 4ft to the main mast and a 4'6" bowsprit with a masthead jib. This took care of the weather helm that loaded up when power reaching.
http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Mischief%20of%20Whitford/th_2MoWBefore.jpg
http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Mischief%20of%20Whitford/th_4MoWAlmostthere.jpg

Zane

[SNagy]

They have a comfortable motion and the helm balance is perfect. They are beautiful. They can carry four adults in real comfort, none of that sit-on-the-rail and get wet business. They can't capsize; and the rig is simple. So who cares they are not as fast as a laser? We are dealing with style, comfort, elegance, and perfection. Did that kid in the planing plastic sailboat pass us? Would you pass the champagne and cheese again? Since we're out on the water and will be home for dinner speed is not particularly important. Let's go over and sail around that beautiful wooden classic yacht. They are sure to pass us a compliment, and not mind at all if we sail close alongside for a good look. Maybe they will ask us to stop for drinks, since we are not dripping wet.That is why a boat designed in 1914 is still in production, by two companies.

Check out: http://h12.orrsford.com (http://h12.orrsford.com) for mor information on the H12.

[PaulD]

Having raced an H12 1/2 for a couple of seasons, I have a couple of observations. I sail in a mixed fleet of both gaff and bermudan rigged H12 1/2s, havens, and bullseyes. In most races (moderate breeze), a couple of the bullseyes are in the lead and the other boats tend to be about 10% behind. A well-sailed H12 1/2 can finish in the middle of the pack of bullseyes, and occasionally win. In our fleet there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in finishing times between the gaff and bermudan 12 1/2s. Contrary to popular belief, the gaff-rigged H12 1/2s can point just as high as the other boats, but they tend to be a bit slower close-hauled.

As the wind freshens though, things change. A couple of weeks ago we raced in conditions on the hairy edge of where you want to single-hand these boats (or even be out at all). Water was flying over the bow, etc, which is very unusual in these boats which are known for staying dry. The bullseyes were overpowered, and the top two finishers (by a very wide margin) were gaff-rigged H12 1/2s.

Here's a picture taken from the race-committee boat that day on an upwind leg. You can see the H12 1/2 out front pointing just as high as the bullseyes.

http://sites.google.com/a/lhlogic.com/paul/sailing/Sherbrooke%20race%20medium.JPG

So are they undercanvassed? I would say they are just about perfect for their class. In a light wind they can keep up with all but the best-handled bullseyes, and as conditions start to get hairy, they will take you home safely.

Paul

[esingleman]

They have a comfortable motion and the helm balance is perfect. They are beautiful. They can carry four adults in real comfort, none of that sit-on-the-rail and get wet business. They can't capsize; and the rig is simple. So who cares they are not as fast as a laser? We are dealing with style, comfort, elegance, and perfection. Did that kid in the planing plastic sailboat pass us? Would you pass the champagne and cheese again? Since we're out on the water and will be home for dinner speed is not particularly important. Let's go over and sail around that beautiful wooden classic yacht. They are sure to pass us a compliment, and not mind at all if we sail close alongside for a good look. Maybe they will ask us to stop for drinks, since we are not dripping wet.That is why a boat designed in 1914 is still in production, by two companies.

Check out: http://h12.orrsford.com (http://h12.orrsford.com) for mor information on the H12.

Steve, what a perfect response, nothing else need be said. Loved the "pass the champagne and cheese" line.

What about pulling along side another classic wooden boat and saying "Have any grey poupon?"

[SNagy]

Erick: I can't claim credit for the lines, but I can for the sentiment. Have you started on your 12 yet ?

[Old Sailor]

Thanks so much for all your marvelous comments and input. Now pass the Grey Poupon please.
Old Sailor

[Zane Lewis]

Very good line Steve and thats how they both felt to sail.
NB the BB14 is 17'3 on Deck.

I would just like to point out that they can be tipped over, We regually dipped the lee rail.
Unless your more moden US builds have lots of bouyancy built in they won't float if you fill them up. This stopped us from offically racing in the trailer yacht classes here (NZ) as they have to pass a 90deg self righting test which we could not do.
Zane

[johnw]

The class originally had bouyancy tanks in the bow and stern. People opened them up to use them for storage, and because wood rots if you don't have air circulation. I think you could just close off those tanks and go racing on the glass boats.