Prudence restoration

[kd]

We have begun restoration on a 1948 Herreshof Prudence sloop. Removed the cabin and stripped her down to the ribs and planks. Repaired some ribs. Power washed loose paint off interior and am now ready to start putting her back together. Should I coat the new sisters with any type of paint? The interior planks/ ribs had a light coat of grey paint. What should I coat them with before moving on?
The deck of the cabin is cedar with canvas. If I want to cover it with mahogany, can I lay the mahogany over the cedar? The rest of the cabin is mahogany.
We just finished building a lightning. We dyed the mahogany instead of staining it. Then varnished it. Will such a wood dye hold up in direct sunlight? Dyes are cleared than pigmented stains and make a sharper color, but are they used on boats? As you can tell, we are adventurous novices with a lot of energy. Any help is appreciated.
We removed all the electrical. How should we modernize?

[Concordia..41]

</font> Welcome
</font> Good luck (I mean that sincerely) with your project
</font> Rough answers to your questions: </font>Should I coat the new sisters with any type of paint?
See thread in this section titled WBF FAQ (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008298) . It should give you several thorough discussions most of which will involve CPES. Have a cold beer and comfortable chair before embarking on this thread.

The interior planks/ ribs had a light coat of grey paint. What should I coat them with before moving on?

Same answer as above.

The deck of the cabin is cedar with canvas. If I want to cover it with mahogany, can I lay the mahogany over the cedar? The rest of the cabin is mahogany.

I’ll leave this for someone else.

We just finished building a lightning. We dyed the mahogany instead of staining it. Then varnished it. Will such a wood dye hold up in direct sunlight?

As dyes generally have no UV protection, they are dependent on the UV protection provided by the varnish. A general boatbuilding / restoration rule of thumb that should be rigidly followed is: DON’T MAKE IT HARDER As with your question above re removing the canvas and covering the cedar with mahogany. More project work = more money & more frustration; more upkeep and varnish territory = less sailing time.

We removed all the electrical. How should we modernize?

I suggest you contact the Herreshoff folks in Bristol. They should be a wealth of information.

Again, welcome to the Forum and good luck.

[ 08-31-2005, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[Bob Cleek]

The deck of the cabin is cedar with canvas. If I want to cover it with mahogany, can I lay the mahogany over the cedar? The rest of the cabin is mahogany.

Concordia left this one for me... LOL

DO NOT "cover" the cabin top with mahogany! Dumb idea. Given the age of the boat, I expect the cabin top (not "deck") is tongue and groove cedar plank. There are two ways to deal with recovering it. One, if you wish to keep the canvas so that the restoration will be traditional and correct, you should recanvas it. There is lots of information on this in the "search thingy" here. Essentially, you lay Irish felt on the cedar and then canvas over that. The canvas is then painted.

Canvas, as you have discovered, isn't particularly long lasting. The modern alternative is to cover with Dynel soaked in epoxy. There is also much on this technique in old forum posts. The Dynel and epoxy will last for a very long time and remain relatively watertight, more so than the canvas. If using this method, you MUST cover the cedar with a thin layer of MARINE plywood (1/8") and then lay the Dynel over it. Because the cedar planks will move, you can't epoxy Dynel over them. The ply gives a stable surface. The cedar moves under that without cracking the Dynel and epoxy.

Go to the WoodenBoat Store (on line here) and buy a copy of L. Francis Herreshoff's book "Sensible Cruising Designs." There is a picture of "Prudence" on the cover and the plans and "how to build" text are in the book. Do not deviate from these plans, or the building techniques given, or the value of your classic will be substantially diminished.

Also get a copy of Jim Trefethen's "Wooden Boat Restoration" also available at the WoodenBoat Store on line. This book has an excellent treatment of (most) restoration techniques.

The age of your Prudence indicates that it may well have been built professionally under the designer's supervision. As such, it is a valuable classic boat that should be preserved properly.

As for "electrical" systems... the original did not have one. If you must, running lights can be powered by a 12 volt battery.

DON'T GO CUTTING THINGS UP AND MESSING AROUND BEFORE YOU GET THE BOOKS!

[Con LanAdo]

ignor all posts that bicker with the above - - continue to always be adventerous, Good Luck.
Charlie

[StevenBauer]

The series on boat restoration that is currently running in WB magazine has lots of good info, too.

Go back and re-read what Bob wrote.
Here's some pics of the Prudence that was at the WBShow last weekend in Newport, just for inspirations sake:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid184/p8063c5bedad7810bd7dc2d0d0108b018/f2944f22.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid184/pc5d5c58d95d5a719a750edbd899aabb0/f294500a.jpg

Steven

[Concordia..41]

Too Funny - I almost put in my post - "Cleek will chime in here" :D

[kd]

Thanks much. I will stick to the original look.
Question: I am in Texas and it can get dry. Should I maintain some certain moisture content in the planking? I have kept it wet and swollen. But if I jsut let it go, the paint over the planking seams will crack. What do you do? If I let it dry and re-caulk, will it swell and bulge at each seam?

[Concordia..41]

Yo Bob? Another one lobbed to your corner of the field :D

[Bob Cleek]

Should I maintain some certain moisture content in the planking? I have kept it wet and swollen. But if I jsut let it go, the paint over the planking seams will crack. What do you do? If I let it dry and re-caulk, will it swell and bulge at each seam?

(Chuckle)... Yes, it will dry out. That is okay. You may actually do her more harm trying to keep her wet (particularly with fresh water). That may promote wood decay.

Now, the paint over the planking seams will crack. But the boat will swell back up as soon as she is in the water. DO NOT STUFF ANYTHING IN PREVIOUSLY TIGHT SEAMS THAT SIMPLY SHRUNK! Obviously, when she goes back in the drink, the planks will tighten and what you stuffed in there will either spit out (soft stuff), or you'll start busting fastenings and frames. (hard stuff) (BTW, they are "frames," not "ribs.")

A certain amount of bulge will occur in a properly caulked and puttied hull that swells when launched. This is rarely a problem when a boat is only hauled for a few days for a paint job. However, it is rather noticeable in a new boat or one that has been out for a while. For this reason, such boats are often given a somewhat limited topside paint job, sometimes only the base coats and a couple of finish coats. When they are next hauled and fully taken up, the final "perfect" finish coats are then applied.

If your boat is out of the water for restoration work, do your best to shelter it from the sun. That mimimizes sun damage and is a lot more comfortable place to work. Fortunately, a Prudence is small enough that this is easily accomplished.

And please, READ THE BOOKS! LOL

PS: Note the paint scheme on the Prudence pictured above. That is the ONLY way a small LFH yacht should be finished. LFH was very particular about that color green on the decks. He picked it because it proved to be easiest on the helmsman's eyes on sunny days. Unless you mix your own, you can only get if from George Kirby's paint company in New Bedford.

[ 09-01-2005, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[kd]

Thanks again,

I will post some photos of her today. The cabin interior was reworked in 1975. Should I try to restore it back to the original design? The photos I have seen of Prudences all seem to vary in deatils like the interiors. Was there a specific design by LFH for the interior? I hope I am not taking too much sides here in what seems to be a controversy about restoration to orginal designs. I detect some different camps on this subject. I suppose I side with the original designs and do not come to this boat restoration unawares.
Some of my other work does involve restoration: www.heritagebarns.com (http://www.heritagebarns.com)

This boatstuff is exciting. My 3 sons have taken to it, first building a cosine wherry, restoring A Lyman and then building a solid wood Lightning. And now this prudence project. We also have a furniture shop. But the idea of building a beautiful thing in wood and then puttiing it out in the salt water and weather...is ...well... a little....um...odd. But very exciting.

We appreciate all the advice.

[OEX]

Kd, would you be interested in posting "restoration logs" on the WVBRF website? We can then all follow you and learn or advice easier with pix and more text, etc.

Just a thought and an offer---I will post them if you just e-mail them to me with text each update. Have you been taking a photo record?

Look here (logs (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/Woodenboat_Restoration_progress_reports.htm) )for "logs" and let me know. We can change the format to whatever you like.

Cheers, Bruce

[rich morpurgo]

is that the boat that was on ebay recently.

I love the Prudence! I am jealous.

Rich

[OEX]

By the way my e-mail is bioelf@mindspring.com

[kd]

Rich,
This Prudence is not the one on e-bay in arizona.
She came to us from MA.

[kd]

She was built 1948 by Malcolm Seavey & Co, Thomaston, Maine.
Anyone know anything about them?

[kd]

We are going to replace the canvas with dynel. The orginal deck and cabin top are cedar planked. Do we need to put down plywood or can we place the canvas on the cedar? If plywood, what thickness and how do we secure it to the cedar? What are the steps in this process from start to finish?
I have some cpes, should I coat the floors and frames with this? Can I paint "Bilge Coat" over the cpes?
The mahagany parts are very blonde. What mahogany is this?
Should I polish the bronze? What finish should it be left? It is all oxidized very green.

[OEX]

By the way everyone, KD is posting pix and progress logs on the WBRF site under the Restoration progress page.

Cheers WBRF (http://woodenboatrescue.org)

[David Conard]

The way we did the cabin top when we restored an L.F. Herreshoff cat yawl was to use thin (~1/4") marine ply cemented to the cedar with thickened epoxy. First, the cedar was faired, then sealed with unthickened epoxy. All the ply parts were dry fitted. We made up lots of 3" x 3" plywood pads wrapped in plastic strapping tape (to repel epoxy adhesion) with screw holes in the center. We sealed the underside of the ply with unthickened epoxy. We then used a notched trowel to spread the thickened epoxy on the cabin top, placed the ply on it and screwed it down all over the place through the pads. After the epoxy cured, we removed the screws and pads, faired again, rounded the edges, sealed the ply with clear epoxy and installed two layers of dynel, which wrapped about 1/2" over the edge to be covered by the eyebrow molding. If some of the screws are bound to the epoxy, you can simply hold a soldering iron on them and they will heat up and free themselves from the epoxy. The prudence house top isn't as curved as the one we were working on, so you may be able to use just a few pads and screws to keep things aligned and then weigh it down with sand bags--faster, and fewer screw holes to deal with.

[kd]

We have epoxied down the 1/4" plywood on the deck and cabin. We have the dynel. Can anyone give us an idea of how to lay it? In epoxy and paint over it?

She is cedar planked and needs some new caulking. Should we take the hull down to the wood? Or caulk and then sand smooth and repaint? The seams have opened up some and the bottom is pretty rough.

KD

[Adamant]

Bob Cleek,
I have the situation you mentioned above. I have the rebuilt boat that has swelled up and squeesed out calking compound (Interlux topside seam compound) and there are places where there is not enough compound. Do I resand all of the topside and use the same compound to fill the topside? Or scrape off the excess and use an epoxy (West) with 410 filler? The hull is stablised and shouldn't cycle too much If I keep it stored properly.

KD sorry to horne in on your post for something that has probably been awnsered while Iwas sleeping.

[Jay Greer]

I just finished re-canvasing the coach roof on our 1960 non-modified H28. The origional canvas was set in white lead over cedar planks. The white lead was still soft when we removed the old covering! Actually the canvas was still in good shape but it was paint sick from too many judicious enamel jobs. We chose to replace the canvas in the same manner that the origional job was done. This is the manner in which we have used for canvas jobs on most of the boats we have built. It really does work very well. As for the dye, we have experimented with it with good results. Commercial analine dye is the product we have used. It does give spetacular results! Many coats of UV protected varnish are highly recommended.
L. Francis Herrershoff was a personal friend and I have had the pleasure of being a guest in his home.
I highly recommend that you read his writings. Especially The Common Sense of Yacht Design and Sensible Cruising Designs. They will give you tremendous insite into the care and appreciation of your fine little ship.

[David Conard]

What we did was to dry fit the dynel (two layers) with a 1" overlapped seam down the middle of the cabin top (the fabric wasn't wide enough to do one piece). We laid it on one layer at a time, and wetted it out with unthickened epoxy using a brush with the bristles cut off about 2" long. One layer to port, one to starboard, one to port, one to starboard. We trimmed the edges when still flexible.

I stripped the hull, rolled on one coat of primer, reefed out loose caulking, sqeezed BoatLife into the largest seams and launched it for a week to swell before reefing all seams and re-caulking.

Hope this helps.

David

[Bob Cleek]

Adamant, if you are ready to put another coat of enamel on your topsides, all that needs be done is a light sanding. That should remove any of the seam compound that is standing proud. If the spots where the compound is "shy" aren't really deep (about the same as the squeezed out stuff, in reverse), all you need to do is apply some Interlux glazing compound. This putty will fill all nicks, dings and shallow seams. It sands like butter when dry. One trick, though, is to keep the lid loosely on the can when applying it, opening the lid only to get some with your putty knife. It is thinned with acetone or the like and that evaporates very quickly, skinning the top and making spreading a mess. It can be thinned with a bit of acetone, if need be. I put a small amount in the can, seal it up, and turn the can upside down overnight. It seems to permeate the goop and loosen it up. (Can should be stored upside down... the label is attached that way as a reminder.) After you've sanded the fairing compound smooth, prime it. Otherwise, your gloss will soak in and show as rough spots.

[OEX]

Newest installments of the LOg are on the site--lots o pix.
Page 2 Prudence Restoration Log (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/prudence-2.htm)

Cheers, Bruce

[OEX]

and more.....we are all falling behind again--Adamant here is a run for your $

http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/prudence-3.htm

[OEX]

another entry in the log.... log (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/prudence-3.htm)

cheers, Bruce

[OEX]

newest installment of KD Restoration Log---

Prudence Restoration Log on WBRF (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/prudence-4.htm)

cheers, WBRF

[ 11-28-2005, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: OEX ]

[David Conard]

Beautiful. Bring her up to Lake Champlain and we can have a match race.

[OEX]

looks like she is done---check it out on the WBRF site ( Final!!! (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/prudence-4.htm) ).

Just Fantastic!!

Cheers, Bruce
WBRF