Help me decide: Ness Yawl or "Alaska"?

[cmcgovern]

Hello, I know everyone likes to help a beginner out with these kinds of questions.

objective: home-build a boat for daysailing and camp-cruising the puget sound and inside passage. trips could be up to a month long. hope to row rather than motor if the wind dies.

basically, I have been drooling over "Alaska" for a year but now it strikes me that the Ness Yawl may be a faster build since it is glued lapstrake plywood. What do you think? how do these boats compare?
(link to designer's page for "alaska")
http://www.dhkurylko-yachtdesign.com/build.htm


any info, experience, philosophy and pontification is welcome! :)

[Don Olney]

I built a Ness Yawl.

For purposes of camping and beach cruising in the Puget Sound area, I would advise an Alaska over a Ness Yawl.

I know that some people camp and cruise with the Ness Yawl, but I do not consider it designed for that purpose. The Caledonia Yawl would be most people's choice for cruising over a Ness, which is a fast day sailer. If you build the open boat design, you will have no place to stow gear. If you build a decked version with watertight compartments fore and aft, you will add considerably to the build time. The Alaska also looks to be a sturdier, somewhat smaller boat.

If you are going to carry a motor, you are better off with the transom on the Alaska versus a motor well or a bracket on the double-ended Ness Yawl.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Build one of each and try them both out, then sell the one you prefere least....

[kenjamin]

James McMullen has built a boat with Iain Oughtred's blessings that is somewhere between the Ness Yawl and the Caledonia Yawl and James lives in your neck of the woods and has done a considerable amount of cruising there. Hopefully he'll be touching base with you on this thread about his boat, Rowan.

I've built a Caledonia Yawl which would be better for hauling a month's worth of provisions but is no pleasure to row although I've come up with an arrangement which is tolerable. Fortunately Xena sails so well that oars are seldom needed. However, I do carry a 4HP that mounts through a waterproof port midship – just in case I need it. With the load carrying ability of the CY, you get to carry extra stuff that you may or may not need.

[cmcgovern]

Great stuff, that's the kind of input I need, but I am still curious which one you think will be a faster build.
Thanks!

[Yeadon]

I vote Alaska as a lug-yawl. According to the photos on the website, you'll also need a large dog for your travels.

The fastest boat to build? My gut reaction is to say it doesn't really matter, because you're never really done building a wooden boat. You'll mess with it forever.

[neilm]

I would guess the build time to be similar but since building a boat is so enjoyable why worry about that?

Whitehalls are more of a rower than a sailer and 4'6" beam seems a bit narrow for optimal sailing and a bit wide for optimal rowing. My Skerry has the same beam and I consider it a good compromise between rowing and sailing but they do neither perfectly. I think most people prefer a boat more optimized for sailing and only row when they have to. If you like to fish like me you might want to row more. Perhaps someone else with more experience can chime in. I am still learning to sail.

Neil

[Clinton B Chase]

I would seriously track down James McMullen on the Oughtred forum and oick his brain. He built a stretched Arctic Tern which could be a perfect boat if there is such a thing.

Cheers,
Clint

[kenjamin]

Clint, if you're referring to the Caledonia Yawl "Crazybird" site, it's down and has been for a day or two. Don't know what's going on with that. I agree that a copy of James McMullen's Roland would be just about right for these parameters.

James must be off somewhere eating his grog and hardtack.

[Michael Beckman]

If you build the open boat design, you will have no place to stow gear.

Plenty of space, just use drybags. Depending on bilge size, food stores well under floorboards.. stays cooler down there, especially in Puget Sound. Clothing takes up 1-2 drybags.. don't need much in an open boat anyway, just make sure it stays warm while wet.

[htom]

I think that Alaska is a slightly better choice for that task, mostly because of the transom. Strip plank might build a little faster than shaping the planks of a Ness Yawl or Roland, but the interior of any will take as much, or more, time.

[cmcgovern]

http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/small-boats/ratty.php (http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/small-boats/ratty.php)
what about ratty, how does it compare to alaska? I just learned of it...
edit: looks like you can't get the plans anyway.

[Ben Fuller]

The reason that I did not do a Ness Yawl is ground out. When you live in a land of mud flats its nice to be level. I think the Alaska has more room and more versatility then the Ness.

[TerryLL]

cmcgovern,

I cruised the Passage up to Sitka from Seattle about 25 years ago, and from what I hear lately, the place is pretty much the same. Here's a few things you need to consider:

1. The majority of the trip is among islands and through narrow passages. The winds are very fickle, so relying on sail is a risk. There are times when you will face contrary winds for weeks on end. Currents in the narrow passages will regularly exceed the hull speed of your vessel. Fog and wind will keep you on shore for days at a time.

2. There are several long open crossings, so your boat and your skills must be up to being caught in the open in a serious blow.

3. Resupply en route should not be counted on, so you need to carry everything you will need, plus ample food and water for all the weather days.

4. Good shelter and a reliable cooking stove are essential, plus adequate fuel, and a bullet-proof rain fly.

5. You will need a weather radio, but you will often be out of range and in the dark about what's coming.

6. Your boat must be either large enough to live on for days at a time, or small enough to drag above the high tide line. Having a boat that is too small for the first and two large for the second will insure a very miserable trip, especially if you anchor your boat out and find it gone in the morning. Both of the boats you are considering fall in this middle range.

7. Unless you are rowing a very light boat like a kayak, please consider a small outboard. You will come to love it at those times you are worn out, the wind in your face, the point you absolutely must make still 3 miles off, the tide and the current against you, and night coming on. And, there will be rain, serious rain and often.

I'm not trying to discourage you. The trip is fabulous and an experience you will cherish. By all means, do it. But be prepared, have the right boat, and carry the right gear.

[cmcgovern]

I appreciate the concern, Terry. Let me state that I am not in a hurry to do the Inside passage all at once. Rather I hope to do various parts of it over the life of the boat. I am also reassured by Kurylko's two-point mooring system which he describes in his Alaska article and on these forums.

edit: What sort of boat did you use? sounds like you had lots of problems!

[TerryLL]

This is the boat, a 23' Cape Ann Dory.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/cape_ann1.jpg

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/cape_ann3.jpg

The problems I faced were the weather, the contrary winds, and the adverse currents. I ran short on food and fuel a couple of times, and I grew weary of being soggy for weeks on end. But it was a great experience, and hope to do it again. I was 35 at the time and am now 61, so there's still plenty of time.

[Kermit]

If you've seen "Alaska," did you consider his "Myst?" I think I might...

[Woxbox]

I'd go with the Caledonia Yawl, and build comparments in the ends that would double for flotation and dry stowage. I agree 100% that you need to be able to sleep on board in reasonable comfort once the boat is too big to haul up a beach.

Motor? If I had a motor, I'd go with a design that had a cabin of some sort, too. Now you're really comfortable.

[KMacDonald]

My vote goes to "Alaska".

[lvergara]

I would have the mind of the designer in heavy consideration. You can tell that Don Kurylko placed a lot of effort to optimize the design of Alaska for camp cruising... plus he is very accesible to consultation by e-mail....

...I also vote for Alaska, just look at the happiness face of that dog in the website...

[James McMullen]

I live for camp cruising out in the islands, and I think I've finally gotten the perfect compromise after half a dozen tries for the supreme Sail & Oar camp-cruising sailboat in my Oughtred-designed Rowan. I definitely prefer my own boat to an Alaska. . .but I can also see why someone with slightly different focus and priorities might prefer an Alaska to mine and they wouldn't be wrong either. There are lots and lots of personal choices and preferences to balance out. . .and for that matter you could build an Alaska-type boat in plywood lapstrake or a Ness Yawl in cedar-strip if you wanted to. I very strongly prefer the glued-lap myself after having built a few strippers, but other folks willingly sand and grind and sand forever, building one strip boat after another and are happy. There are many good options depending on your own strengths and abilities.

I'll have Rowan at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Show this Sept 5-7 and I'd be happy to show her to you in person. There should be a bunch of other small boats of this nature there for you to check out too--including maybe an Alaska as I've seen one there before, as well as several other possible choices. I think you should hold off on making any sort of decision until you can see some of these boats in person, sit on the thwarts, look at the construction details, go for a ride. . . .Port Townsend next weekend will be a perfect opportunity for you to do some hands-on research and get the fires stoked up for your build to come.

Here's a pic of Rowan and a Calkins Salmon Wherry off for a weekend's worth of camping in the San Juans:
http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/26318/2544936000088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2544936000088484686MYWIVB)

[kenjamin]

James, sorry to have gotten the name of your boat wrong. I have corrected it in my posts. Glad you can help cmcgovern out at the show.

If I sent you the money and postage for one of those cone hats, would you send me one? It would go well with the bamboo seats on Xena. :D

[James McMullen]

That hat I got at an Asian market in Vancouver BC. They're called "coolie" hats I think. It is my all-time favorite gardening hat too--keeps the sun at bay, yet lets your scalp breathe.

[Chipito]

I've built an Alaska and boats similar to the Ness. I believe your question was which is faster to build and in my opinion glued lap is significantly faster to build.
Jeff

[cmcgovern]

Thank you Chipito, I suspected as much. All in all though I think i'm sold on Alaska. She's worked herself into my blood a bit. I'm sure some of you know the feeling. :)
James,
Sadly I can't make Port Townsend this year but I do appreciate the offer! Thanks to everyone!

[James McMullen]

If you can't make it to this year's show. . .

. . .then just come next year and bring your new boat! :cool:

[TerryLL]

James,

I am frantically reorganizing my life to get to the PT show in two weeks. Hope to meet up with some of the forumites and talk about, uh, maybe boats. I haven't been since '79, I think, so maybe it's time.

[James McMullen]

I'd love to meet with you or with any other forumites who manage to make it to the show. Here's a recent picture of me complete with marshmallow roasting stick so that y'all whom I haven't met in person yet can recognize me:

http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/40390/2108422960088484686S425x425Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2108422960088484686YFnVvO)

[Chipito]

Well, if you've decided on Alaska you can't go wrong. She's a wonderful boat. I still get a thrill from just looking at her...

[TerryLL]

Hey James, and all other forumites at the PT boatshow,

This is me in Krestof Sound Alaska. I'm the one in the pink hat. If you see me in PT, please say hi.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/Terry_and_rockfish.jpg

So sorry about the aluminum skiff.

[eleventhirtyfour]

I'm glad you leaned the "Alaska's" way- I'm building the MYST (slowly, ever so slowly) and have been impressed with Don's plans... both boats seem pretty well suited to our coast.
Be seeing ya'll in Port Townsend!