Peapods, which one?

[ToddFwbf]

As some of you may remember I started a thread asking about suitable designs for a row boat for my very specific local area. Acorn 13 (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83200)

I've had discussions with several designers, done some reading, re-read John Gardner's "Building Classic Small Craft", am in the midst of reading Pete Culler's writings, done some market research, talked with some people who know very little about boats but were very interested in my ideas, listened to them very closely, worked out some solutions to my shop limitations, combed through Wooden Boat archives and forums and am currently thinking that the boat for me to build is one of several peapods.

I'm thinking of either Doug Hylan's 13' or 15' "Beach Pea" or Walter Simmon's Matinicus Double Ender. I would very much be interested in any and all opinions regarding comparisons between the two (well 3 actually).

I realize that specific questions really help in getting specific answers but I have found in this process that I often learn considerably more by not being too specific. My particular questions may mislead my informant into thinking that I may already know some thing that they consider very important when in fact I don't.

That all being said, right now I am concerned whether the larger pods are as easily handled by a single person as the 13 footer.

I'll probably plunk down the money for plans for all three (yikes!) because I just haven't been able to find reproductions or facsimiles of lines drawings or study plans available for any of them(Wooden Boat Store seems to not be offering the Beach Pea study plans anymore). I do know that Hylan wrote a series of three articles for Wooden Boat about building Beach Pea and I have those articles and I suppose the drawing published in the first article is enough to evaluate initial stability and ease of rowing (thanks John Gardner for your excellent article on peapods). Maybe a few insightful responses here can save me a few bucks.

I've also noticed that others have been on a somewhat similar quest as I have, albeit w/o the commercial element [although I claim some redeeming aspects in as much as my goal is to promote wooden boat ownership as a way to achieve a greater social goal :rolleyes:]) so I thought I'd share this link I've found in my searches: The Outsider (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE7DF143AF933A15754C0A9679C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1)

Thanks.

Todd

[Clinton B Chase]

Todd, thanks for sharing the article...I tuned into the author because I am also looking into dories. I have rowed only a few peapods and can make a suggestion based on this and my dory research: 1) Find the boats and actually row them...even if this takes more time and effort. Do what it takes and find the very boats that interest you and try them. In the meantime, 2) Buy the plans and learn about their construction.

About the designs: Hylan's peapod is wonderful to row, especially the 15-er. She is slippery through the water and seaworthy. She is always tight being glued lapstrake and therefore trailers and stores without fuss. This is good if you are very busy with other things. It also makes a light boat, which for rowing is a must. The lighter the boat the better it rows all in all. Dories can be light, but they will take more effort to maneuver and navigate through chop due to its mass and inertia. With proper rowing stroke a lightweight peapod like Hylan's Beach Pea will be a joy to row. No doubt.

The Matinicus Peapod, I have not rowed but I have seen it in person and the plans. Even is glued lap construction she'll be a bit heavier...there is more boat to move...as well as more boat to build. I think if you want a 'pod that can sail as well as row this would be a great choice, but if it is mainly rowing, I'd steer you towards the Beach Pea. Then again, if you want a more traditional boat to look at and row, then the Matinicus Peapod would be better even if there is a trade-off with regards to giving up a slight amount of rowing performance (but not much!)

I would only add that you should REALLY look at Gardners 16' rowing 'pod. This Peapod has a plank keel. There are two HUGE reasons why this is better for most of us: a) it is easier to build...the lack of keelson makes things more straightforward. Sometimes these boats can be more tempermental to fore-aft distribution of weight, FYI. b) the flat bottom makes beaching easy. There are now plans for this peapod and I think you'd need to get the offsets from Mystic and loft them and perhaps do some interpretation to come up with a construction plan. The drawing of the hull is in his Chapter on peapods in his book.

Good luck! You have chosen a great boat to get into.

Clint

[ToddFwbf]

Clint,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I think you are absolutely right about rowing a boat first. May not be possible though in my case.

I do know that pods have either been plank keel or vertical keel. As a matter of fact Walter Simmon's Matinicus can be built either way.

I've admired Gardner's 16 footer, the one he drew for the St. Croix River, but part of my plan is to offer "upgrades", one being a sailing rig and the 16 footer seems to have more deadrise than might be suitable. What do you think?

Todd

[Clinton B Chase]

I think you can put a sail rig in most any boat...it is a matter of you comfort level and experience and putting an appropriate amount of sail area on. I think the rowing pod with a downwind sail rig and 50 SF of sail would be cool.

Clint

[Grizz_]

Have you looked at the peapods in Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft? Pretty good basis for comparison.

I have rowed a small peapod. It tracks straight compared to my 18 foot bank dory, built to the lines published in American Small Sailing Craft. I rowed that dory across San Francisco Bay a number of times. I towed it to Alaska and used it as a pick-up truck for a number of years.
Bank dories are pigs to row, they are extremely sensitive to trim, and they absolutely have to be properly ballasted if you're out in any actual weather. I carried a piece of iron that I could slide fore or aft to prevent the boat from weather cocking in cross winds, which it will joyfully do by the bow or stern any chance it gets.

I towed that boat behind a commercial fishing boat for a couple of years. It never once shipped a drop of water while towing.

I know this isn't info about a peapod, but it's the experience I have with rowing a small open boat. The peapod has lower freeboard, tracks straight, and is a pig to turn. The dory can require brutal strength if there's wind, but it can also dance in among the rocks and turn quickly as long as there is rocker to the bottom. Dorys resemble dogs in that they inevitably train their "owners".

Regards,

Grizz

[ToddFwbf]

Grizz,

Thanks. dories are not in the plan for this project, but I enjoyed reading about 'em anyway.

Pea-dog 'eh? Hmmm. Maybe the plank keel would be better than the vertical in that department?

From what I've read the pods often have two rowing positions so that they can properly trimmed, stern down, to help w/ maneuverability.

[Grizz_]

Grizz,

Thanks. dories are not in the plan for this project, but I enjoyed reading about 'em anyway.

Pea-dog 'eh? Hmmm. Maybe the plank keel would be better than the vertical in that department?

From what I've read the pods often have two rowing positions so that they can properly trimmed, stern down, to help w/ maneuverability.

I can see how a dory bottom on a peapod hull could be a good thing. I think the pods were required to be directionally stable working their gear, and the dories needed to be able to spin around the long line gear.

I hope you get some photos up as your project progresses; sounds like you've got a good one started.

Grizz

[ToddFwbf]

OFF TOPIC (yeah on my own thread no less)
Clint:
I checked out what your doing at the Compass Project. Very cool.

I've done something like that, but in no way as ambitious and up to your standards. Here's (http://fillingham.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/the-approach/) a blog post I did about this year's class.

7 days, 2 hours each day, 6 pre-teens and we still got a boat floating at the end.

[Ben Fuller]

Funny that the fishermen used to dance their 15 foot double enders in and out of ledges standing and pushing. We have one late Matinicus double ender that could not be rowed sitting. Only one set of lock sockets and that over the thwart. 14 foot was small for a working pod. The 13 footers came along when there were yachts to hang them behind. It's pretty easy to get these to hull speed which has limits. Good pods had pretty hard bilges for stability when standing and hauling.

I think that I put study plans of the pods for which Mystic has plans in the 87 boat designs book. The fast one is the Cape Split 16 footer. In the peapod building DVD that we did at Penobscot Marine Museum, I listed all the historic plans that I knew about and sources for them in the liner notes.

If you want a light double ender in the 15 foot range consider a ducker which can be rowed at 4 knots and sailed at 5 with burst to 7 ( gps at the Small Reach Regatta.)

[ToddFwbf]

Ben,

Ahh, yep, I see your study plans now. I have '87' right here.

That's very useful info you've posted, just the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thank you.

I was referring to at the top of the thread was study plans for both the pod Simmons drew, the Matinicus and the pod Hylan has drawn. I'll likely start this venture with one of those boats. Where it will lead me though, I sure don't know. I'm not really looking for speed, what I want to do is introduce pulling boats to my home town (Milwaukee) as I think it would have a very positive affect on the changes afoot lately. My earlier thread (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83200) has a lot more on all that.

[StevenBauer]

I was going to mention that DVD, Ben. :) Get it, Todd. It will really get you fired up about Peapods. :D Good work, Ben, I love that DVD. Now I've got to get my copy back from Clint so I can watch it again. ;)


Steven

[ToddFwbf]

Well, OK then Steven. Guess I better.

Todd

[ToddFwbf]

I've reached a dead end looking for the peapod dvd. I found the article in Ash Breeze (summer '05) about it being almost ready to go and that the Penobscot Marine Museum may handle the retail sales. But the PMM site doesn't list it. I also searched the Mystic site as well. Where else should I look?

Todd

[Stu Fyfe]

The 13 ft Beach Pea is a dream to row. It also tows very, very well. Hardly leaves a ripple. As far as sailing, you better have the right conditions. I had a lug rig on mine and, yes, she will go over. Very tender.

[ToddFwbf]

Thanks Stu.

I suppose it would be hard to find any boat around 13' that wouldn't go over. How is she for righting?

Todd

[StevenBauer]

It looks like Hamilton Marine has it. :)


http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/prodimg/HMV-PEAPOD.JPG

This 85 minute DVD is a compilation of local oral history interviews with individuals who have a knowledge of these little double-ended boats. The Peapod has played an essential role in the life and history of Maine. Named for its rounded, double-ended shape, Peapods are thought to have originated about 1870 around Penobscot Bay. Peapods were the original Maine lobster boat, as a fisherman could row either way, and walk up the side to haul a trap. This series of interviews was conceived to commemorate these boats and to capture some of the history and knowledge held by the generations who have seen as these boats have passed from working craft to largely recreational uses.


http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,28922.html


Steven

[Stu Fyfe]

Great DVD. Beach Pea righting herself? Well there's no flotation. I broached her and ended up sitting in a swamped pod. I had gunnel guard on the rails ( the 2" type) it helped keep her afloat. Kind of like those foam noodles kids use as swimming aids. Fried the handheld VHS and looked real stupid in front of the whale watch boat coming into Barnstable Harbor with my daughter, the naturalist on board. But that's another story entirely.

[ToddFwbf]

Steven,

Thanks! Hamilton Marine, my favorite chandlery.

Todd

[ToddFwbf]

Stu,

No standing on center board and all that eh?

You've reminded me of when a boat I built with a friend many years ago went over (the one and only time). She was a hard chined 24 foot or so, decked w/ cabin. Luckily my dad had insisted we put in a self draining cockpit with a wide bridge deck. I wasn't on the boat at the time, my friend had her out. He had to be towed in by the CG. He and I dropped the keel and cast a new one w/ more lead. I think we figured another 50lbs or so. Somewhere on the forum I'll have to tell the tale of the Green Bean, built in Milwaukee, eventually sailed and sold in the Gulf of Mexico.

Todd

[Yeadon]

I built the 15 foot Matinicus Peapod found in Gardner's "More Classic Small Craft You Can Build."

Big Food is cedar on oak, with a 65 square foot sprit rig, a centerboard, and a somewhat of a hybrid keel. The keel/keelson assembly is flat and wide, but a couple inches thick ... meaning it tracks well, and is beachable.

Overall, a nice boat. Probably a little under canvassed, and I wished that I'd drawn a little rocker in when I lofted it. But the boat is a blast. I'm in the process of adding a mizzen, to turn the little cat-rig into a sprit-yawl.

One note about peapods ... the more weight you put in there, the more stable the boat gets.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3133/2317174011_2584d6f72c.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2188/2317172603_84a07acb8f_b.jpg

[StevenBauer]

Man that's a nice boat Yea! You would have fit right in at the Small Reach Regatta last weekend. :)


Steven

[Ben Fuller]

Todd,

Looks to me like you are wanting a glued lap boat which was not apparent in the initial post. Having looked over Walt's site and the materials he is producing on his Double ender, you'd be hard put to go wrong for your needs. Given that you want to introduce a number of people to the concept you need a boat that can be rowed double so 15 foot is minumum and if it gets a sail, you want stability. Hence a big Matinicus double ender is the way to go and keeping it light and non mechanical the glued lap version would be right. Dougs 15 footer is a little smaller and will probably feel a little more tender under foot for novices. You should probably buy Walts DVD no matter which boat you do.

Plus Walt is a nice guy and very helpful so if you run to problems he is at the other end of the email / phone line. ( Commercial discloser, Walt apprenticed with a Matinicus double ender builder ... Merrill Young... and I use him at the museum to do appraisals of same when donated.)

There was a big Washington County pod at the SRR with a large gaff main doing very well.

One of the things I like on double enders is the Delaware boom rig. A steeply sloped boom like the alpha dory which makes sheeting the main much easier.

The Peapod dvd is available from the PMM store, its just not on the web site.

[ToddFwbf]

Yeadon- that boat sure is sweet.

Ben- yeah, I didn't want to repeat my earlier post, but I probably should've mentioned the glued lap. It's very good to hear that Walt would be a good person to work with and I think that you understand exactly what I'm up to. Walt's DVD looks like a must have. 15 feet seems big inside the shop, but 13 feet will seem pretty small on the water. Funny how that works.

Thanks.

Todd

[ToddFwbf]

Peapod DVD is on its way.

[jgerber]

No matter which boat you build, purchase Walter's Matinicus Double Ender CD. It is the CD version of his how to book for building his Double Ender. The CD shows him building a keel and planked version. It was well worth the $25.00 for the information, tips and tricks alone. I wanted to build his boat for my first one but decided to go with Oughtred's Elf with its three planks a side to break myself in. I do think that a planked keel would be a time saver, but I have to wonder how it tracks when rowing?

Jack Gerber

[paladin]

The 11 foot Oregon Peapod that Jay Benford uses in his adverts was at one time my boat. It was originally built to use as a tender for the 44 footer but it was too large and heavy for my needs.....but it sails exceptionally well, and was made with epoxy glued ply laps....

[Hwyl]

The 11 foot Oregon Peapod that Jay Benford uses in his adverts was at one time my boat. It was originally built to use as a tender for the 44 footer but it was too large and heavy for my needs.....but it sails exceptionally well, and was made with epoxy glued ply laps....

Nice boat

http://www.benford.us/images/scp-11oregon-peapod1-large.jpg

[paladin]

Good Grief, Gareth......that shot must be 20 years old.....both girls are either about to finish college and get married or have already......The photo that I have is of his son not much older than that sitting inside rowing, and he's the eldest.
If you have access to his drawings/designs......the 60 footer, Wild Hare, was the boat that he did for me.....

[James McMullen]

My boat, a "yole", is essentially a peapod--but from the other side of the North Atlantic. At the risk of throwing expansion rather than closure into your design search, have you looked into Iain Oughtred's line of double ended sail & oar boats? He's got designs ranging from the 14'6" Whillyboat all the way up to and beyond my 20 footer. Worth a look to get ideas for details, even if you don't actually build one of his designs.

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/29165/2148681780088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2148681780088484686fguALp)

[ToddFwbf]

James,

Oh great!

No, actually I have looked very closely at Oughtred's designs. Beautiful boats but I'm concerned about initial stability for what I want to do. I think I really need to pay attention to to initial stability and ease of rowing. Somewhat contradictory I realize, but it seems that peapods are pretty close to the best mix of those two elements.

Am I misinterpreting Oughtred's designs do you think?

Your "yole" is gorgeous.

[Antonio Majer]

I built the 15 foot Matinicus Peapod found in Gardner's "More Classic Small Craft You Can Build."
Yeadon, if you establish a Gardner's Peapod Club, pay attention to let international enrolling, it may be me too :)...
http://lh3.ggpht.com/antmjr/SLLc8YI_WXI/AAAAAAAADd0/-ED9UuNQ8Xo/peapod.jpg?imgmax=640

[ToddFwbf]

Antonio,

Very nice. What wood(s) is that?

Todd

[Antonio Majer]

Hi Todd, I used ash and black locust for the structure, pine for planking. Well, it’s Pinus Nigra, which wasn’t used in traditional boatbuilding in the past here, because it’s less rot resistant then other pine species, like the Maritime pine or especially the so called pino d’Aleppo (Pinus Halepensis), which even Homer wrote about, and which grows in all the Mediterranean see. Unfortunately it isn’t marketed anymore, one should find a good tree in the garden of someone else and cut it down in the nighttime :D (everyone here knows I could do it, don't know why they are laughing)...Anyway I chose my pine with great attention, it’s all sound, knot free, etc.

[ToddFwbf]

Antonio,

Thanks. I really like the look of the ash (breast hook, stern sheets?).

Pinus Nigra is new to me. I wonder if it belongs to the group of pines known as white pines despite its name. Nope, a little research and I find it's in the yellow or hard pine group. And, I find that it is sacred to the god Poseidon.

My reference article for pine is Jon Arno's piece in the May/ June 1984 issue of Fine Woodworking (pp. 62,63) and I was saddened to learn (by reading an archived post from this forum) that he passed away a few years ago. The article he wrote is concise, informative and laced with enough anecdotes to be very interesting. Thank you Antonio for sending me back to it once again. Grazie.

[Chan]

paladin
Did you modify the 11' Oregon Peapod? Yours doesn't appear to have the round stern I see in the Benford ad.
Do you think it would be possible to shrink it a foot?
Thanks

[Songololo]

Todd, I know that you asked for any comments on the boats that you mentioned, but thought I'd rather add more potential peas to the pod (or should that be pot???) instead...

Gartside has a few peapod lookalikes - some are row only others row and sail ...

10 Ft Clinker Yacht Tenders, Design #105

Length9 ft 6 in &10 ft 0 in
Beam4 ft 2 in Depth amidships1 ft 4 in
Weight150 lbs Building time300 hours
Skill levelHigh Price $135 Canadian funds
Design #104, #1052 Sheets
http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/910tenderscopy.JPG



http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/105interior.jpg

A happy looking owner?

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/105closeafloat.jpg

12 Ft Double-Ended Rowboat, Design #126



Length12 ft 3 in
Beam4 ft 8 in Depth amidships1 ft 5 in
Weight100 lbs Building time400 hours
Skill levelHigh Price $195 Canadian funds
Design #1264 Sheets
http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/12de-rowboat-126.jpg

16ft Double Ended Sloop #165



Length 16 ft 0 in
Beam 6 ft 0 in Draft 3 ft 3 in (CB down)
Depth amidships 1 ft 8 in Sailing rig Gaff sloop
Sail area 122 sq. ft Building time 1000 hours
Skill level High Price $200 Canadian funds
Design #165 6 Sheets
http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/updates_2009/1.jpg

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/updates_2009/2.jpg

[Songololo]

Question: What distinguishes a peapod from other, perhaps similar looking, double-enders?

[BBSebens]

I also have a Mattinicus Peapod with the wide plank keel. She rows quite nicely, tracks very well.

As per initial stability, you will find most peapods very tender at first, but there is a ton of secondary stability. The trick is to weigh it down. Peapods were designed as workboats, and are meant to be full of cargo.

When you are thinking about a rig, definitely go with a Lug rig. James McMullen can tell you all about them, but they are the way to go with a small open boat.

[Bob Triggs]

Gannon and Benjamin built a nice one:
www.gannonandbenjamin.com/projectdetail.php?project_id=57 (http://www.gannonandbenjamin.com/projectdetail.php?project_id=57)

[Chan]

I'll have to check out Gartside.
Reason for 10' is alot of marinas charge extra for docking or storage for tenders over 10'

[Breakaway]

Question: What distinguishes a peapod from other, perhaps similar looking, double-enders?
In Building Classic Small Craft, pp 127, Gardner states: " There were all manner of peapods. And it would be difficult to draw a hard line between pods and other small double-enders."

[Steve Paskey]

paladin ... Did you modify the 11' Oregon Peapod? Yours doesn't appear to have the round stern I see in the Benford ad. Do you think it would be possible to shrink it a foot?

Benford also did a 9' version of the peapod, which he named the Pacific Peapod. Plans for both the Oregon and Pacific pods are in his book "Small Craft Plans."

[Songololo]

Here's a link (http://dory-man.blogspot.com/search?q=Building+the+Matinicus+Double+Ender) on the DoryMan blog to a Matinicus build...

Nice!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3D7r7cBXdMs/SynImzPdy7I/AAAAAAAABtE/EPj3rjRk5Pk/s1600/matinplank1web.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3D7r7cBXdMs/SynIwwN_WkI/AAAAAAAABtM/FEnBX92AHXg/s1600/boat1web.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GnklFTJIHjA/SyaMkHG4aSI/AAAAAAAAASQ/6Z9Brb1MgUU/s1600/smarkmde1web.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GnklFTJIHjA/SyaMs7wNmoI/AAAAAAAAASY/XPIgd76kueU/s1600/smarkmde2web.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GnklFTJIHjA/SyaMwrUfCqI/AAAAAAAAASg/5FnLodHFtwg/s1600/smarkmde3web.jpg

Link to first page in build log (http://sailingskiffs.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-boatbuilding-project.html).

[ToddFwbf]

Wow, this thread is still alive?!

I'm still in business, still working on the peapod but have had to turn a lot of my attention to the other aspects of my business as the recession has hit the custom furniture business very hard (at least around here).

It looks as if some of you have seen my blog about my project. For those that haven't yet may be interested here's a link 3 Rivers (http://3rivers.wordpress.com/). Other threads started by me in this forum actually show more of the boat under construction but I will be posting more of the boat building soon on the blog.

If I've mis-appropriated anyone's photos on my blog please let me know, I can take them off or give credit.

[Chan]

Thank you Steve,
That is what I'm looking for!

[PeterSibley]

Peapods are THE most lovely dinghy out there !I just wish there was room for one on my deck !:(