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ron ll
08-19-2008, 12:02 PM
Starting to look like that's the ticket. I like it.

John of Phoenix
08-19-2008, 12:22 PM
Obama - Biden
McCain - Lieberman

Oh yes! Please dear God... p l e a s e !

ron ll
08-19-2008, 12:26 PM
Obama - Biden
McCain - Lieberman

Oh yes! Please dear God... p l e a s e !

Yeah, but watch out for that term, "Slam Dunk." Its been known to bite people in the butt.

Kaa
08-19-2008, 12:28 PM
Picking Biden doesn't seem to go well with that "change" shtick :-)

Biden is also the one who created and pushed through the RAVE act which is umm... let's say controversial.

Oh, and didn't he say about Obama "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy, I mean, that's a storybook, man."? :D

Kaa

Chris Coose
08-19-2008, 12:32 PM
Joe Biden is a very smart guy.
Smart enough even to restrain the kook and turn it into a foreign policy VP candidate message like we haven't seen in a long time.

ljb5
08-19-2008, 12:34 PM
I'm still holding out hope for Wes Clark, but it seems like he's not being considered seriously.

Wouldn't that be interesting,? The valedictorian of West Point facing off with the class clown from Annapolis? :D

I like Biden a lot. He will be an excellent VP.

I suspect that people who don't like Obama will find some reason not to like Biden.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Biden may have stuck is foot in his mouth once or twice.... but he's no where near as bad as John McCain.

ron ll
08-19-2008, 12:35 PM
Joe Biden is a very smart guy.


Coupled with the ability to call "Bull****" when required.

Milo Christensen
08-19-2008, 12:36 PM
****, if it's Biden we'll have to listen to all his speeches to catch the plagiarism.

C. Ross
08-19-2008, 12:43 PM
Sen Biden would be a good choice.

Some interesting angles: he voted for Iraq war, voted against surge, was generally a hawkish voice urging President Clinton to use force.

Most interestingly, when he was being considered as VP for Kerry, he urged selection of McCain as Kerry's VP.

Chris Coose
08-19-2008, 12:44 PM
****, if it's Biden we'll have to listen to all his speeches to catch the plagiarism.

What's this "we'll" crap? I'm certain you'll keep us up to date.

BrianW
08-19-2008, 12:45 PM
I suspect that people who don't like Obama will find some reason not to like Biden.

He's a DC insider who'd stuck his foot in his mouth.

Keith Wilson
08-19-2008, 12:47 PM
He's a DC insider who'd stuck his foot in his mouth.Which also describes McCain perfectly.

Kaa
08-19-2008, 12:58 PM
He's a DC insider who'd stuck his foot in his mouth.

Foot-in-the-mouth disease is endemic within the beltway. Unfortunately, it's not fatal.

Kaa

Bob Smalser
08-19-2008, 01:04 PM
I'm still holding out hope for Wes Clark....

I was wondering if you were into rough trade with soldiers. What was that comment again about my open bathrobe? I'm sure I can find it if you don't remember.

http://www.militarycorruption.com/Images/clark-cover.jpg

John of Phoenix
08-19-2008, 01:07 PM
He does look awfully gay there. Don’t ask – and even if they waterboard you General - don’t tell.

Any chance www.MilitaryCorruption.com PhotoShopped that?

MiddleAgesMan
08-19-2008, 01:08 PM
I can't get very excited about Biden but if he helps the ticket I'll be on board.

I never gave Wes Clark much attention but when the Georgia-Russia crisis was unfolding he gave the most intelligent critique of how Bush had failed and what should and could be done. He did this without appearing partisan, speaking purely as a military leader and statesman.

Tom Montgomery
08-19-2008, 01:16 PM
I like Biden. He was my choice among all the candidates going into the Democratic primaries. I also liked Richardson.

The McCain campaign has very effectively taken the "plaigerism" issue off the table. :D

Joe (SoCal)
08-19-2008, 01:23 PM
I was wondering if you were into rough trade with soldiers. What was that comment again about my open bathrobe? I'm sure I can find it if you don't remember.




. Clark was valedictorian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valedictorian) of his class at West Point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Academy), was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholarship) to the University of Oxford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford) where he obtained a degree in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy,_Politics,_and_Economics) (Philosophy, Politics & Economics), and later graduated from the Command and General Staff College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_and_General_Staff_College) with a master's degree in military science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_science). He spent 34 years in the Army and the Department of Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Defense), receiving many military decorations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_milita ry), several honorary knighthoods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight), and a Presidential Medal of Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Medal_of_Freedom).

Colonel Bob, how do you stack up in comparison ?

Bob Smalser
08-19-2008, 01:24 PM
photoshop?

No, I'm afraid Clark's gay magazine cover is very real.

http://www.advocate.com/letters_detail_ektid01566.asp

ljb5
08-19-2008, 01:25 PM
http://www.militarycorruption.com/Images/clark-cover.jpg

Oh... look! He's on the cover of a magazine. Is that a crime? :rolleyes:

(I've often wondered why you keep that image around. :rolleyes:)

What's your point? Are you saying he's gay?

Is that a problem for you?

What if he's not gay, but merely tolerant of other people's freedom?

Is that a problem for you?

He has one hell of an impressive resume. No one can doubt that.

LeeG
08-19-2008, 01:25 PM
hell, if America elects a black president a gay military type can't be far behind,,no wonder the wing nuts are thinking the end is near.

LeeG
08-19-2008, 01:27 PM
see Joe, the problem he's probably part of the intellectual elite.

Bob Smalser
08-19-2008, 01:31 PM
Is that a problem for you?



You are dense, aren't you? You fantasize about Clark's open bathrobe, too?

Tom Montgomery
08-19-2008, 01:35 PM
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

ljb5
08-19-2008, 01:36 PM
What's your problem with a guy appearing on the cover of a gay magazine?

Are you saying he's gay?

Do you have a problem with that?

Why do you have that image bookmarked?

You've posted it so many times, I wonder if you have some deep affection for it.

John of Phoenix
08-19-2008, 01:39 PM
Authentic it is and look what some prophetic gay guy said way back in Feb 2004.

I have to tell you what a mistake you made with your cover of Wesley Clark. We agree, where the candidates stand on gay issues are important and need to be know. But you have given the Republicans and the conservative media just more ammo. This will bring out the shouts and cries of all the fundamentalists, and this photo will be used against not just Clark but all Democratic candidates.
Over four years later and you're still dredging it back up. (This reminds me of my ex-wife.)

Joe (SoCal)
08-19-2008, 01:41 PM
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Agreed I used to respect old Bob but his foaming at the mouth hate for Obama has truly made him look like a fool.

Keith Wilson
08-19-2008, 01:42 PM
For a while Bob was posting reasoned arguments. Then he mostly posted diatribes. Then he descended to snarky one-liners, and now he just posts pictures. Yep, Wesley Clark was on the cover of The Advocate; that means he's a Bad Guy. Obama didn't have his hand over his heart at the right moment; that means he Hates America. It's easier than thinking.

Bob Smalser
08-19-2008, 01:46 PM
Do you have a problem with that?



Of course not. I'm sure Clark meant it to be a joke, and I certainly do. Why can't you and your lackeys?

Take a few deep breaths, go yell at traffic for a little while, then close your bathrobe and pour yourself a drink. There will be plenty of things for you to be obtuse about tomorrow.

John of Phoenix
08-19-2008, 01:48 PM
Registered LGBT voters favor Sen. Barack Obama over Sen. John McCain 68% to 10%, with 3% of GLBT adults supporting Ralph Nader and 1% choosing Bob Barr.
Well then, Obama must be gay.

You're right, Keith, it is easier than thinking.

Joe (SoCal)
08-19-2008, 01:53 PM
Well said as usual Keith.

John what a very prophetic quote you posted.

Keith Wilson
08-19-2008, 01:57 PM
It could be that my sarcasm detector isn't working and Bob is just pulling our collective legs. Maybe I caught it from Milo.

Or maybe not.

Bob Smalser
08-19-2008, 02:01 PM
......sarcasm....

You all are such sanctimonious bores. But those silly helmets do fit right in.

And you can do so much better than be LBJ's little lackeys. My bitch isn't with you.

LeeG
08-19-2008, 02:04 PM
not, the apolcalypse is near, things aren't going hunky dory, the neocons and Christonuts got to use the military tools to the present success and cost, Obama is a candidate, therefore Obama is at fault.

wing nut logic.

Tom Montgomery
08-19-2008, 02:05 PM
Bob, if you have so much disdain for those posting here... Why are you slumming? Nothing else to do?

Keith Wilson
08-19-2008, 02:07 PM
You all are such sanctimonious bores. Bob, when nobody can tell the difference between your sarcasm (if that's indeed what it is) and the stupidest sort of political propaganda, it's an indication that you may not be getting it quite right.

Osborne Russell
08-19-2008, 02:10 PM
Obama and Biden are smart enough. The question is, do they have any principles and the courage to further them.

C. Ross
08-19-2008, 02:13 PM
That was McCain V. 2004, NOT McCain V. 2008.... they're entirely different programs.

Wait, I thought you guys liked v.2000, but didn't like the v.2003 service pack, the one with the Iraq feature?

We can jaw back and forth about McCain's views in 2000 versus 2008, and that would be typical bilge fare -- fun, colorful and inconclusive.

But the 2004 McCain is indistinguishable from the 2008 McCain -- the same one who is running today was endorsed by Sen. Biden four years ago. (I wonder if he said so on film somewhere...would make an interesting McCain commercial...)

Sens. Biden and McCain are the kinds of politicians I generally respect. They get stuff done, they try to do the right things, and they are friends who respect each other and honor the reasons why they were elected.

It'll just be a damn lot harder campaigning against "McSame" and "Bush 3" when it becomes clear that on military and many foreign policy issues, Biden has a Senate record and viewpoint more in common with McCain than Obama -- mainly because Obama hasn't been around long enough to have a track record.

We all like sharp tools around here? I can hardly wait for the sharpness of the spinning knives that will be used to split hairs over why Biden really meant something different than McCain.

Bob Smalser
08-19-2008, 02:18 PM
Bob, when nobody can tell the difference between your sarcasm (if that's indeed what it is) and the stupidest sort of political propaganda, it's an indication that you may not be getting it quite right.

You've been down here so long you've been overcome by the fumes.

The only comment I made that was addressed to you was the last one. Yet you jump in providing Dear Abby advice like you were invited. And almost always carrying some political troll's water for them.

This place used to exhibit some original thought, but these days it seems the Mind Police are running things. It's OK to be a political troll for the accepted favorite, but never the opposition.

Joe (SoCal)
08-19-2008, 02:28 PM
Bob, love ya but...
#1 Your not funny ( Limp Gay Troll ) :rolleyes:
#2 Just because you don't like a candidate does not mean that those who do are disciples.

Suggestion don't give up your day job for comedy and start practicing saying "President Obama " :D

John of Phoenix
08-19-2008, 02:36 PM
But the 2004 McCain is indistinguishable from the 2008 McCain
Oh, come on.

MiddleAgesMan
08-19-2008, 02:39 PM
Some words just sound good together..."sanctimonious bores" and "mind police" for example.

As someone has already said, it's much easier than actually thinking.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-19-2008, 02:53 PM
No, I'm afraid Clark's gay magazine cover is very real.

http://www.advocate.com/letters_detail_ektid01566.asp

He's also a star so'jer. If I can count he has four. He has most of the commendations you can get in the Army except the DSC. Purple Heart, Combat Infantry, Silver Star, Bronze Star, airborn, ranger, valedictorian at West Point. And his degree from Oxford is not to be sniffed at.
He's got everything but a chit that shows he's a rabid Neocon.
Does that mean he's a weenie and will burn in hell for not accepting the true faith? Or could we say he has something going for him because he got to the top of the military heap even tho' he's a Democrat and a Roman Catholic? In a military chock full of Neocon and evangelical nut cases Clark has cut quite a swath. He deserves a medal for that if nothing else.

High C
08-19-2008, 02:54 PM
Biden seems a lame choice. He's long been kind of the "go to guy" that many previous Presidential candidates have mentioned when they were struggling to choose a VP. It's disappointing that the hope and change candidate could be no more imaginative.

Joe Biden is polished, experienced, and attractive, but has substantial negatives. He's an old party lion with all the baggage that goes with that, not the fresh breath image that Obama has built his candidacy on.

LeeG
08-19-2008, 02:55 PM
it's a variation on a theme, "the man is keeping us down man".."the Mind Police"....apparently the more centrist and liberal perspectives have become authoritarian voices and now have the ability to police ideas. Since the police are a societies tool for securing antisocial elements, sounds ok to me.

I don't want to wear a uniform,,can I get by with a hat or matching outfit?

John of Phoenix
08-19-2008, 03:06 PM
I don't want to wear a uniform,,can I get by with a hat or matching outfit?
Oh hell no, go for the uniform.
http://www.officialvillagepeople.com/Images/VP%20CHER%20Backstage.jpg

Kaa
08-19-2008, 03:12 PM
Since the police are a societies tool for securing antisocial elements, sounds ok to me.

I don't want to wear a uniform,,can I get by with a hat or matching outfit?

Ask the Department of Homeland Security, I'm sure they'll be able to find you an uniform-less job rooting out the antisocial elements.

Kaa

LeeG
08-19-2008, 03:24 PM
Don't need no DHS, I have been nominated by the bilges best. I'll try the cowboy outfit but with sandals or deck shoes, the Cher outfit makes me look fat.

ljb5
08-19-2008, 03:30 PM
Of course not. I'm sure Clark meant it to be a joke, and I certainly do. Why can't you and your lackeys?

You're sure Clark meant "it" to be a joke?

What do you mean by "it"? Appearing on the cover of a magazine?

:confused:

I see no evidence that was a joke.

Lots of people appear on the covers of lots of magazines and it's not usually considered a "joke."

Why do you think it's a joke?

Keith Wilson
08-19-2008, 03:40 PM
Wow, I've been promoted to "lackey"! Hoo Hah! :rolleyes:

LeeG
08-19-2008, 03:46 PM
I rather like being one of the MindPolice, a tad passive aggressive, prevaricating and obtuse. "Up against the wall mother fuh,,if, I mean do you really have to fart upwind?"

Rigadog
08-19-2008, 03:49 PM
Biden seems a lame choice. He's long been kind of the "go to guy" that many previous Presidential candidates have mentioned when they were struggling to choose a VP. It's disappointing that the hope and change candidate could be no more imaginative.

Joe Biden is polished, experienced, and attractive, but has substantial negatives. He's an old party lion with all the baggage that goes with that, not the fresh breath image that Obama has built his candidacy on.

I agree, good analysis, very well put. obama is proving to be run of the mill.

C. Ross
08-19-2008, 04:18 PM
Biden seems a lame choice. He's long been kind of the "go to guy" that many previous Presidential candidates have mentioned when they were struggling to choose a VP. It's disappointing that the hope and change candidate could be no more imaginative.

Joe Biden is polished, experienced, and attractive, but has substantial negatives. He's an old party lion with all the baggage that goes with that, not the fresh breath image that Obama has built his candidacy on.



When I'm feeling partisan I'm afraid he'll pick Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sibelius, would be an attractive and effective pick, not an insider, experienced enough, polished, articulate, smart ...

When I'm thinking about who would be nice to have advising Obama if elected and things got dicey? Biden's not a terrible choice ...

C. Ross
08-19-2008, 04:34 PM
You can review McCain's evolution at www.carpetbaggerreport.com (http://www.carpetbaggerreport.com), where'll you'll find the list of McCain flip-flops (over 70 of them). McCain changed a great deal between version 2000 and version 2004, but also between 2004 and 2008.

I don't have to follow the link -- you've posted that list quite a number of times! That list has some truths, some matters of interpretation, some outright whoppers.

Most of them trace to 2000 to 2004 and not later. I don't like all of McCain's evolution -- the one that irks me most is his backtracking on immigration between 2004 and 2008 (really, between 2007 and 2008) but in most respects I have no complaints.


Regardless, it's not unreasonable to think that Biden, being of a bipartisan persuasion, thought the fusion of Kerry and McCain... disagreements and all... to be a good thing. Since it didn't happen, we'll never know.

Well, if it does turn out to be Biden, I expect two things. One is that Democrats will be reminded of his endorsement of McCain, and that'll be hard to shake. Two, if elected, I expect Biden to be more in touch with the traditional establishment than the core Obama Nation might like.

john l
08-19-2008, 04:45 PM
Bob, love ya but...
#1 Your not funny ( Limp Gay Troll ) :rolleyes:
#2 Just because you don't like a candidate does not mean that those who do are disciples.

Suggestion don't give up your day job for comedy and start practicing saying "President Obama " :D

hit the ring nail right on the head! maybe abbreviated to P.O.ed is more the correct sentiment!

john l
08-19-2008, 04:46 PM
Bob, love ya but...
#1 Your not funny ( Limp Gay Troll ) :rolleyes:
#2 Just because you don't like a candidate does not mean that those who do are disciples.

Suggestion don't give up your day job for comedy and start practicing saying "President Obama " :D

hit the ring nail right on the head! or maybe abbreviated to P.O.ed will be more the correct sentiment!

skuthorp
08-19-2008, 06:09 PM
I'm interested in comments re a candidates 'policy trail' from election to election and the emphasis on the differences. Circumstances change, people change their minds, a period in govt/opposition may cause a person to become more or less pragmatic depending on their experiences.
Then there's the point that they are a candidate, and statements made and policies presented (or not) are directed at winning this election, not the last one. The economy, the balance of world power, many things are different this time around.
An English cricket captain once said, "you can't score runs if you aren't out there with the bat" Same rule applies, you've got to get elected first.

ljb5
08-19-2008, 07:23 PM
It just gets more interesting all the time.

Apparently Joe Biden has just said, "I'm not the guy."

I still hold out some hope that Bob Smalser's fantasies will be answered. :)

Lew Barrett
08-19-2008, 08:09 PM
And meanwhile, the rumors of Lieberman abide in the McCain camp. Hoo boy!

skuthorp
08-19-2008, 08:12 PM
What's the betting saying Lew, they are often a better guide than the polls. Money talks!

Lew Barrett
08-19-2008, 08:18 PM
Beats me, Jeff. It's all happening as if in a dream! It's just somebody else's.

ron ll
08-19-2008, 08:18 PM
Okay, we still don't know yet. But if it IS Biden, do you think there might be a few serious investigations into the Bush administration's abuses of power after the election?

Lew Barrett
08-19-2008, 08:21 PM
Wouldn't that be merited? They shopped for it, put it on lay away, came back picked it up, returned it, took delivery again and all that's left is for them to pay for it. Nothing so flagrant has happened since when? Nixon? Iran Contra? Monica Lewinsky? Nah! Not Lewinsky. She's hardly a footnote. Bush's hubris and malpractice has been legion.

ron ll
08-19-2008, 08:32 PM
But it seems there is a shortage of people willing to call them on it. Biden might have the guts to do it.

skuthorp
08-19-2008, 08:43 PM
Do you really think that a new Dem pres in will want to open that can of worms? Who knows how many of the Bush admin would be dragged under, and would he(?) want to drag the previous Pres and VP through criminal procedures that would damage the nations already iffy reputation even more. No, regrettably I'd say that the law will be ignored or circumvented and it all swept under the carpet.

Mrleft8
08-19-2008, 08:48 PM
Agreed I used to respect old Bob but his foaming at the mouth hate for Obama has truly made him look like a fool.
I don't think it makes Bob look like a fool.....

ron ll
08-19-2008, 08:56 PM
...through criminal procedures that would damage the nations already iffy reputation even more. No, regrettably I'd say that the law will be ignored or circumvented and it all swept under the carpet.

How does holding them accountable to the law of the land damage our reputation?

skuthorp
08-19-2008, 09:32 PM
"How does holding them accountable to the law of the land damage our reputation? "
It shouldn't ron ll, but the national loss of face, and the prospect of having to sort out the constitutional mess at a time of economic crisis and maybe an inernational ones would, I think, be a too daunting a task. Easier just to let it go, no matter the injustice of it. The US is not a signatory to the world court, along with China, Russia, Nth Korea and a few others so there is less chance of embarassment there as long as those involved are careful about their overseas travel destinations. A new admin would hope that a diet of sport and Fox and focus on the failing economy will distract the proportion of the populace who would want to pursue the matter.

Osborne Russell
08-19-2008, 09:40 PM
It's OK to be a political troll for the accepted favorite, but never the opposition.

In what sense do you consider yourself the opposition? We haven't had an election, much less a change of government.

ljb5
08-19-2008, 09:56 PM
I don't think it makes Bob look like a fool.....


I think a lot of that depends on if and how explains his positions.

Lately, he's been very reluctant or unable to explain himself.

Does he have a specific objection to Clark appearing on the cover of a gay-interest magazine?

Why did he say he was "sure" Clark meant it as a joke?

Can Bob really not fathom the concept that a public figure might appear on the cover of a magazine in earnest?

Kaa
08-20-2008, 02:00 AM
An Obama - Biden ticket?

OsAMA BIn laDEN :D

It's a plot against America! :D :D

Kaa

C. Ross
08-20-2008, 06:23 AM
Did you stay up all night working on that?

Too bad about the missing "B"

Let's see...what anagrams could you make out of
Obama Bayh
Obama Kaine
Obama Sibelius
McCain Crist
McCain Pawlenty
McCain Romney

Rigadog
08-20-2008, 08:16 AM
Word Just out, coming over the wire : He's picked Edwards. This is incredible.

John of Phoenix
08-20-2008, 08:53 AM
Word Just out, coming over the wire : BBC says he's picked Blair.
This is remarkable. :D

Bob Smalser
08-20-2008, 02:36 PM
Biden quotes that you can expect to hear again..


On McCain:
Biden, on a post-debate appearance on MSNBC, October 30, 2007: “The only guy on the other side who’s qualified is John McCain.”

Biden appearing on The Daily Show, August 2, 2005: “John McCain is a personal friend, a great friend, and I would be honored to run with or against John McCain, because I think the country would be better off, be well off no matter who...”

On Meet the Press, November 27, 2005: “I’ve been calling for more troops for over two years, along with John McCain and others subsequent to my saying that.”

On Obama:
Reacting to an Obama speech on counterterrorism, August 1, 2007: “‘Look, the truth is the four major things he called for, well, hell that’s what I called for,’ Biden said today on MSNBC’s Hardball, echoing comments he made earlier in the day at an event promoting his book at the National Press Club. Biden added, ‘I’m glad he’s talking about these things.’”

Also that day, the Biden campaign issued a release that began, “The Biden for President Campaign today congratulated Sen. Barack Obama for arriving at a number of Sen. Biden’s long-held views on combating al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.” That release mocked Obama for asking about the “stunning level of mercury in fish” and asked about a proposal for the U.S. adopt a ban on mercury sales abroad at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing.

Assessing Obama’s Iraq plan on September 13, 2007: “My impression is [Obama] thinks that if we leave, somehow the Iraqis are going to have an epiphany” of peaceful coexistence among warring sects. “I’ve seen zero evidence of that.”

Speaking to the New York Observer: Biden was equally skeptical — albeit in a slightly more backhanded way — about Mr. Obama. “I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

Also from that Observer interview: “But — and the ‘but’ was clearly inevitable — he doubts whether American voters are going to elect ‘a one-term, a guy who has served for four years in the Senate,’ and added: ‘I don’t recall hearing a word from Barack about a plan or a tactic.’”

Around that time, Biden in an interview with the Huffington Post, he assessed Obama and Hillary Clinton: “The more people learn about them (Obama and Hillary) and how they handle the pressure, the more their support will evaporate.”

December 11, 2007: “If Iowans believe campaign funds and celebrity will fix the debacle in Iraq, put the economy on track, and provide health care and education for America’s children, they should support another candidate,” said Biden for President Campaign Manager Luis Navarro. “But I’m confident that Iowans know what I know: our problems will require experience and leadership from Day One. Empty slogans will be no match for proven action on caucus night.”

Also that night, Biden said in a campaign ad, “When this campaign is over, political slogans like ‘experience’ and ‘change’ will mean absolutely nothing. The next president has to act.”

September 26, 2007: Biden for President Campaign Manager Luis Navarro said, “Sen. Obama said he would do everything possible to end the war in Iraq and emphasized the need for a political solution yet he failed to show up to vote for Sen. Biden’s critical amendment to provide a political solution in Iraq.

December 26, 2006: “Frankly, I think I’m more qualified than other candidates, and the issues facing the American public are all in my wheelbarrow.”

On Iraq:
Biden on Meet the Press in 2002, discussing Saddam Hussein: “He’s a long term threat and a short term threat to our national security… “We have no choice but to eliminate the threat. This is a guy who is an extreme danger to the world.”

Biden on Meet the Press in 2002: “Saddam must be dislodged from his weapons or dislodged from power.”

Biden on Meet the Press in 2007, on Hussein’s WMDs: “Well, the point is, it turned out they didn’t, but everyone in the world thought he had them. The weapons inspectors said he had them. He catalogued — they catalogued them. This was not some, some Cheney, you know, pipe dream. This was, in fact, catalogued.”

Biden, on Obama’s Iraq plan in August 2007: “I don’t want [my son] going [to Iraq],” Delaware Sen. Joe Biden said from the campaign trail Wednesday, according to a report on Radio Iowa. “But I tell you what, I don’t want my grandson or my granddaughters going back in 15 years and so how we leave makes a big difference.” Biden criticized Democratic rivals such as Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama who have voted against Iraq funding bills to try to pressure President Bush to end the war. “There’s no political point worth my son’s life,” Biden said, according to Radio Iowa. “There’s no political point worth anybody’s life out there. None.”

Biden on Meet the Press, April 29, 2007: “The threat [Saddam Hussein] presented was that, if Saddam was left unfettered, which I said during that period, for the next five years with sanctions lifted and billions of dollars into his coffers, then I believed he had the ability to acquire a tactical nuclear weapon — not by building it, by purchasing it. I also believed he was a threat in that he was — every single solitary U.N. resolution which he agreed to abide by, which was the equivalent of a peace agreement at the United Nations, after he got out of — after we kicked him out of Kuwait, he was violating. Now, the rules of the road either mean something or they don’t. The international community says “We’re going to enforce the sanctions we placed” or not. And what was the international community doing? The international community was weakening. They were pulling away.”

Biden to the Brookings Institution in 2005: “We can call it quits and withdraw from Iraq. I think that would be a gigantic mistake. Or we can set a deadline for pulling out, which I fear will only encourage our enemies to wait us out — equally a mistake.”

Analyzing the surge on Meet the Press, September 9, 2007: “I mean, the truth of the matter is that, that the — America’s — this administration’s policy and the surge are a failure, and that the surge, which was supposed to stop sectarian violence and — long enough to give political reconciliation, there’s been no political reconciliation... The reality is that, although there has been some mild progress on the security front, there is, in fact, no, no real security in Baghdad and/or in Anbar province, where I was, dealing with the most serious problem, sectarian violence. Sectarian violence is as strong and as solid and as serious a problem as it was before the surge started.”

Biden in October of 2002: “We must be clear with the American people that we are committing to Iraq for the long haul; not just the day after, but the decade after.”

On Meet the Press, January 7, 2007, assessing the proposal of a surge of troops to Iraq: “If he surges another 20, 30, or whatever number he’s going to, into Baghdad, it’ll be a tragic mistake, in my view, but, as a practical matter, there’s no way to say, ‘Mr. President, stop.’”

On Meet the Press, November 27, 2005: “Unless we fundamentally change the rotation dates and fundamentally change how many members of the National Guard we’re calling up, it’ll be virtually impossible to maintain 150,000 folks this year.” (The number of troops in Iraq peaked at 162,000 in August 2007, during the surge.)

Having said all that: “There’s something decent at the core of Joe Biden.” — Jim Geraghty, December 13, 2007

— Jim Geraghty writes the “Campaign Spot” blog for NRO.

ljb5
08-20-2008, 02:42 PM
Biden quotes that you can expect to hear again..

Have you heard what the Republicans have said about John McCain??

:rolleyes:

C. Ross
08-22-2008, 10:56 PM
Supposedly Kaine and Bayh are telling associates that they will not be picked. AP story speculates that it's Biden, though Sebelius has not been ruled out.

The Clinton camp reports that Sen. Clinton has never been asked for financial or other records. (Insert satirical comment here, if you please.)

jbelow
08-22-2008, 11:31 PM
sounds like a lose lose situation

cats..paw
08-23-2008, 04:49 AM
After the missle crisis, I got out of the military ... too many chowder heads.

:D:D

Ethan
08-23-2008, 04:54 AM
Agreed I used to respect old Bob but his foaming at the mouth hate for Obama has truly made him look like a fool.

LMAO....You are THE person in this place who definitely shouldn't be making any comment along those lines. With 20,000+ posts, one would presume you'd have learned to think before touching fingers to keys.

Lately, you have the market cornered on foaming at the mouth and looking like a fool.

Thanks, man. Haven't laughed this hard in awhile.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-23-2008, 05:53 AM
I wish that Bob Smalser would set out the reasons for his views, rather than simply posting epithets like "elitist":

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/mw1080526_lr.jpg?t=1219488680

Mrleft8
08-23-2008, 07:23 AM
I think a lot of that depends on if and how explains his positions.

Lately, he's been very reluctant or unable to explain himself.

Does he have a specific objection to Clark appearing on the cover of a gay-interest magazine?

Why did he say he was "sure" Clark meant it as a joke?

Can Bob really not fathom the concept that a public figure might appear on the cover of a magazine in earnest?
The key word in my statement was "LOOK"...

BETTY-B
08-23-2008, 07:35 AM
Time to knock some dick in the dirt......

Lew Barrett
08-23-2008, 09:30 AM
Indeed Dan. Let's just get on with it. We have someone who will take their gloves off. Good enough then.

It seems to me we should be wondering about the Republican ticket now. The Demo news is out.

Who can McCain get that will balance old age, great wealth, a propensity to shooting off his mouth and a recent but pronounced tendency of playing to the rubes? The best and most measured Republican I know, and the one I'd trust is Cris Ross. Are you running Cris? You know I love ya, man!


Who is there that provides a degree of moderation, or is McCain in a place where he will pick a radical Republican to balance his own style?

Where's the money; a moderate or a firebrand for Republican balance?

Lew Barrett
08-23-2008, 09:45 AM
Agreed, Norman. It;s funny. Truly, politics makes strange bedfellows.

C. Ross
08-23-2008, 09:53 AM
God help us.

Among the possibles, I hope McCain picks Pawlenty, Crist or Sanford. If you agree with some of my scribblings here, you'd like Pawlenty.

Right now I'm trying to raise some money and help Erik Paulsen, who is the very model of a moderate republican. Minnesota Third District, who would follow thirty eight years of service by Bill Frenzel and Jim Ramstad, guys who define effective centrist leadership.

C. Ross
08-23-2008, 10:07 AM
So it's now official. Biden is a good choice, IMHO.

A little detail -- I was a congressional aide back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Biden was smart and decent, and treated staff as people not minions. The little stuff matters....

The fun part will be watching the Obama campaign keep Biden on message. Obama has been running on message and Biden mostly runs at the mouth!

stumpbumper
08-23-2008, 10:53 AM
I was working on the US Capitol Police force when Biden was elected Senator. He was only 29 when he won the election, but turned 30 prior to being sworn in. He was probably the most personable guy up there. He would even just hang out for awhile and talk to us regular people. He was always polite, unlike some that I could name who were total pricks all the time. He is a great choice.

Paul Girouard
08-23-2008, 11:05 AM
I would imagine that Biden and Obama have discussed this at length. For the past few months, Biden has been surprisingly (and perhaps uncharacteristically) 'on message', i.e., keeping his mouth under control... and I'm sure that he'll continue to do so.

I can't think of anyone more suited for the part-time role of a VP candidate, namely, being the top guy's 'attack dog'. He'll make the rest of this election cycle interesting, for sure!




Humm, so Norm with the leg banged up it looks like you'll be around on weekends as well as thru the week eh! No rest for the wicked, or some may find it nice your around 24/7 , depends on view point eh!:D

Just bustin yer chops , I read most of your stuff , not the long C&P's but your own opinion of whats in them.

Paul Girouard
08-23-2008, 11:23 AM
[quote=Norman Bernstein;1925379

I'm a bit dissapointed that the pace of poltiical discussion here has 1) slowed down here, and 2) been dominated a bit too much by the fanatics. Not enough posts by Keith Wilson, Cris Ross, and a few others.

[/quote]

Well that opinion is different than say CS's opinion:D But part of whats great about this format is if you don't like it don't read it , right!

People should sort of know whats going to be said in a thread by either it's title or who is posting it. So some discretion on the readers part should avoid any surprises. Well except the odd titty shot Dutch , or MM and those sort of guys throw in a thread out of context.

I've learned more here in a few years about more stuff, some of it even useful, than I have just bumping into 'real ' people in life. Odd ideas , design solutions , hell just typing and 'trying' to learn how to communicate in a written format have been worth the effort. Again some my vary on my degree of success:D

See ya around campus eh!:)

Lew Barrett
08-23-2008, 11:26 AM
There are never enough posts by those guys, but I'd suggest that the more interesting topic now is McCain's choice. Biden adds balance and experience to the ticket, and what more there is to say will be said over the next few months.

One thing I have been thinking about is the tradition of a long election process here. I think maybe I have an explanation borne in history, if not common sense.

This place is after all, the first republic of the modern era. We were electing presidents when most of the rest of the world were the subjects of kings and emperial dynasties. Ok, after us was the deluge (took maybe two weeks?:D) but the point I'm trying to make is that during the post colonial era, all though through the first part of the 20th Century, absent newspapers, the only way a guy could get his message across was on horseback. You look at the territory they had to cover and figure it took a bit of time to get around from New Engand to Ohio, to Virginia, Kentucky, you know; make the rounds. Our geography is vast by comparison to any European nation, and after all, that's the route of our development. It hardly matters when you don't have elections, as in Tsarist Russia or Emperial China, but we were electing leaders rerlatively early on in the scheme of things, using essentially the same modes of transportation as the Romans did.

So, the tradition of a long electoral process. Today, like so many of our national "traditions" it seems like we should reinvent or streamline the deal for a bit more efficiency and less blather. But perhaps we like it long, drawn out and with a great deal of foreplay. Make any sense?

Paul Girouard
08-23-2008, 11:33 AM
One thing I have been thinking about is the tradition of a long election process here. I think maybe I have an explanation borne in history, if not common sense.

This place is after all, the first republic of the modern era. We were electing presidents when most of the rest of the world were the subjects of kings and emperial dynasties. Ok, after us was the deluge (took mayber two weeks?:D) but the point I'nm trying to make is that during the post colonial era, all though through the first part of the 20th Century, absent newspapers, the only way a guy could get his message across was on horseback. You look at the territory they had to cover and figure it took a bit of time to get around from New Engand to Ohio, to Virginia, Kentucky, you know; make the rounds. Our geography is vast by comparison to any European nation, and after all, that's the route of our development. It hardly matters when you don't have elections, as in Tsarist Russia or Emperial China, but we were electing leaders rerlatively early on in the scheme of things, using essentially the same modes of transportation as the Romans did.

So, the tradition of a long electoral process. Today, like so many of our national "traditions" it seems like we should reinvent or streamline the deal for a bit more efficiency and less blather. But perhaps we like it long, drawn out and with a great deal of foreplay. Make any sense?



Good explanation Lew , I think that is exactly why it's done the way it is. I also think it needs changed to a more modern stream lined process. But American politics and politicians really are not about change , even though Obama's saying he is , little or nothing of importance will change for the average USA citizen. Our state Governor's a prime example of that IMO , YMMV.

Now the world's opinion may vary as well. I not sure Obama will change much on the national level either. Time may / will, (if he wins), tell.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-23-2008, 12:06 PM
Good explanation, Lew, I should think you are quite correct.

Rather like school holidays and university terms being organised around Christmas, Easter and harvest. We still have a horseback rythm to the way we organise things.

C. Ross
08-24-2008, 09:39 AM
Sen. Biden's role is being characterized as "attack dog". Each party is certainly entitled to that tactic.

But I am more than a little saddened this morning to read that Sen. Biden's attacks on Sen. McCain are almost exclusively personal character attacks, rather the critiques of policy.

Biden and McCain have long been bipartisan colleagues, and have spoken highly of each other even in the past few months.

I expect the normal posts explaining how Biden's behavior is somehow the fault of Karl Rove, George Bush or Dick Cheney. I will scroll past those, because their appearance will illustrate exactly what is wrong with politics.

It is discouraging and disappointing that our politics cannot seem to rise to a level or decency, comity and common ground that voters are begging for.

MiddleAgesMan
08-24-2008, 10:24 AM
I suggest reexamining Biden's speech yesterday. I do not recall ANY personal attacks on McCain; every "attack" cited how McCain was proud to have supported GWB's policies here and abroad.

Exactly what has the right-wing media said about his attacks being personal?

LeeG
08-24-2008, 11:01 AM
C. Ross, Biden did say nice things about McCain, but it's ridiculous to expect him to not attack McCains positions and rhetoric. He made one joking comment about McCain having to decide which of the seven kitchen tables he would sit down to, it wasn't mean or questioned his patriotism or personality.

It was one comment in passing that subtely redefined the talking points of "elitisism" and did it in a joke. This is a contest for top scorer, agression is a required attribute.

McCain IS the Republican Partys candidate, the Republican Party has supported some dysfunctional and contradictory policies, THAT has to be attacked and McCain is the candidate representing that legacy. Something that comes to mind is the militarization of foreign policy, the idea that you could eschew "nation building" yet use military force liberally (neocon ideology) in order to "bring democracy" is simply insane. For reasons of face the nation and the Republican Party cannot acknowledge that disconnect so the other party will.