Dust Collection System

[SBrookman]

My brother is moving into a new house and I'm looking into getting him a dust collection system for his basement workshop as a house warming gift. He is at best a hobbiest, with a table saw, planer/jpointer and typical power and hand tools. His workshop will be in a small section of his basement, maybe 400sf.
I can get a discount at Grainger that carries Dayton and Delta models. Any suggestions in the $500 range?
Thanks,

[Mrleft8]

Get a small cyclone job. Regular bag collectors just don't do it. I know..... I have a 4 bagger and need to get a cyclone badly.....I've been saying that for 15 years.....

[TerryLL]

Second on the cyclone. I've had two bag collectors and one with a big canister filter. They all plug quickly, especially when sanding. I'm saving up for that big Oneida cyclone.

[Ethan]

Third the cyclone. Check these guys out - Clear Vue Cyclones (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/index.htm). They build the system licensed by Bill Pentz, who's become an advocate of effective dust collection with a large cult following. Read more about Bill's background and analysis here (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm).

Great gift idea!

EDITED TO ADD: In perusing the Clear Vue sight after posting, it seems they've curtailed their product line since I last looked. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be anything available in the price range you specified. I would still suggest reading Bill's site. Lots of good info that could help in choosing an effective cyclone.

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

fourth the cyclone - Clear-vue is the best place to start.

Rob

[Lew Barrett]

I bought a Jet 1.5 HP system on the recommendation of some magazine articles. It is the relatively new one with a pleated filter, and I thought it would be the answer for my simple needs and "one machine at a time" approach.

Don't waste your money. Get or build the cyclone, pay what you have to. My Jet is a huge, glorified vacuum cleaner that literally both sucks, and blows, and not in a good way. It can't handle the output of my 66. Oh it's better than nothing, but it's just the first step better than nothing. Sixth vote for a cyclone.

[jerry bark]

the clear-vue site shows a cyclone that runs on a shop vac. perfect for a small shop like mine. buy one and a nice shop vac for your gift and you will be well under $500.

I might buy one for my planer and table saw.

cheers
jerry

[Bob Cleek]

Don't waste your money on a Shop-Vac and cyclone. The Shop-Vac in no way can move the volume of air necessary. The cyclone will just separate out some of the chips, which you can do just as well with a "trash can lid cyclone" for just a few bucks.

This is the umpteenth vote for a real cyclone such as described in the Clear-Vu site. Bill Pentz's site will give you all the information on dust collection and cyclones you'll ever need. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm.

One truth about cyclones they won't tell you is that any cyclone that empties into a filter bag is pure BS. There isn't a filter made in a size manageable that can stop the small particulate (fine dust) without quickly clogging up and significantly impairing the effectiveness of the entire system's suction. Those roll around Delta/Jet/Grizzly 1-3 HP "cyclones" that empty into filter bags and claim to contain most all of the fine dust are a joke compared to a real industrial quality cyclone system. (Unless you throw out the filters and duct the exhaust through the wall to the outside.) Anything that sucks in and doesn't blow out is going to get full in short order. The ONLY way to have a really efficient dust collection system is to have the biggest blower and motor you can afford connected to a cyclone OUTSIDE THE SHOP which empties heavy material into a drum while BLOWING THE FINE DUST INTO THE ATMOSPHERE OUTSIDE. Trying to catch that in a bag that remains unclogged enough to continue passing air volume without restriction is as much a folly as trying to build a "perpetual motion machine."

BTW, you'd be hard put to buy or build (I don't think building is really cost-effective, BTW) and install any worthwhile dust collection system for less than $1,500. If anybody knows how, I'd like to hear about it.

[SBrookman]

Thanks for all the input. Looks like it is umpteen to zero in favor of a cyclone. Considering the price of those units, thinking now a gift certificate towards one of those nice machines would be his house warming.

[Jim Ledger]

This is Oneida's pleated dust filter on a 3 HP cyclone. I can attest to the efficiency of this filter for a small shop. Heated air remains in the shop. Very little dust ends up in the filter unless I forget to empty the barrel, even sanding dust ends up in the barrel. For planing operations, the barrel is a little small and need frequent emptying. However, the barrel can be emptied into plastic trash bags without much trouble.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/dustcollector1.jpg

[BBSebens]

Try taking a look at the Festool tool system. Vacuum is integrated into the system. My father in law has a set up. He used a 6" sander to refinish some teak lazarette hatches, and my mother-in-law let him do it in the house! the dust was completely contained with no noticeable loss of suction.

unfortunately, the tools are a bit pricey, though worth it. $500 would get you a great start though.

[dennisbur]

Also a good idea to put up a ceiling dust filter to catch any missed particulates. I use a single speed Steel city with a dual stage filter and 850 cfm. Have cleaned filters twice and inside still looks like new with no visible blow by.

[Captain Blight]

I'd like to take one small exception to Mr Cleek's polemic upthread, and that is to say that none of the pleated filters or bags will catch the fine dust at first, They are generally designed to work best with a little buildup; this is known as "filter cake" and is in fact a desireable thing. When I worked at at door&window shop a few years ago, I would clean the bags once a week; and then, after cleaning, mist the bags with a little water and go run some stock. the damp sawdust would cake right up and we'd be getting filtered air again.

The shop also had a cyclone system ten feet tall with six giant bags, enclosed in a shed attached to the shop. Pretty smart setup, all in all.

[dpincus]

Wasn't there a fine woodworking/homebuilding article recently about how to make one of these from a 5 gal bucket/35 gallon trash barrel?

[HappyJack]

I'll chime in here as one who has used various systems and is currently working with a sub-standard one.

If we go back to the original post, the key phrase is "He is at best a hobbiest, with a table saw, planer/jpointer and typical power and hand tools". Let's face it, a hobbyist isn't passing tonnes of chips through a collector every day, which would justify a $15oo cyclone. That cyclone, incidently would take up a significant amount of the shop area.

My recommendation is for a good shop-vac coupled to one of the "cyclone" lids for barrels (Lee Valley sells one in either black or clear). If you want to get fancy, add in one of the Shop-Vac dust collection systems which includes piping and blast gates. I run a portable 12" planer and my 10 gallon shop-vac handles it with little difficulty. Sure it doesn't get all the chips out, but it's a hobby and I can afford to spend one minute with the hose cleaning out around the planer.

If the noise of a shop-vac is too much then he can always put it in an insulated box - but then again, if a shop-vac is too noisy, the planer will really be a problem.

Just my humble opinion.

Scotty

[redbopeep]

Too many "purists" on this site :) Easy to state the "perfect" solution when you're not the fellow shelling out the $$$.

The reality is that most folks can't afford to put in a good dust collection or vac system. Or, even if they can technically afford it, their spouse doesn't want to spend the money. I'm the "spouse" who does the cleaning--so a good system is important to me.

Most non-professional equipment isn't really made with a decent dust pickup anyway. Unless there's good air movement in the shop getting dust into area collectors....well...one typically ends up vacuuming a lot anyway.

As an aside, in my first job as a mechanical engineer, I used to design cyclone receivers and pneumatic conveying systems for Hoechst Celanese (even belonged to the "Fine Particle Society"...) and transferring that knowledge to hubby and my various shops over the years, I can tell you that yes, cyclones are great when installed OUTSIDE the shop/house/garage and with a big enough motor and a sufficient dust filter. Inside the shop, a good system is noisy and doesn't have adequate ventilation.

Now, the average Joe would be pretty happy to have a Delta or Jet dust collector with one of the inexpensive trash-can-lid sorta-cyclone things hooked up in front of it--unless he has a group of perfectionists telling him that just won't cut it. :rolleyes:

However, if the collector is in the shop or in the house--whoever does the cleaning WON'T be happy. But if its installed outside in its own little shed etc, IMO, happiness will prevail.

Forget the shopvac for general dust collection. They're junk in general--no matter the brand. On our present schooner rebuild, my husband and I don't even use the shopvac that we own. Our "vac" is a big Delta dust collector that sits next to and under the boat (with a trashcan lid cyclone for chips) with about 50' of hose ending with the shopvac hose and tools. We fill up the trash can with chips and dust every few days. When we're done with the Delta on this project in California, we'll take it back east where our even bigger Delta is in storage (along with a home-made cyclone of decent size) to be used when we get another shop.

Anything is better than nothin'...and $500 will get you something that can be added onto if you're thoughtful about it.

[SBrookman]

Thanks, I was just about getting educated out of this idea, at least pocketbook wise. >$1G is lot of house warming.
"Trashcan Cyclone" would that be lilke the Oneida Dust Deputy?

[Tom Robb]

Chips and course sawdust isn't the problem. It's the very fine dust that'll kill you one day if SWMBO doesn't get you first for getting all that fine dust on everything in the house. Good enough may make you feel better that doing nothing but it isn't. How much perfection is worth more than your lungs?
Listen to Uncle Cleek.

[michigangeorge]

Buy him a FEIN shop vac and accessories. This unit should not be confused with the big box store shop vacs and nothing else compares except maybe the new FESTOOL. This small, quiet (will keep the rest of the family happy) vac will catch most of the dust at the source as it can be connected to most any tool. I've had mine for almost 20 years and it gets more use than any tool I own. I have a larger dust collector that only gets hauled out for the really large planing jobs making lots of wood chips which I used to just sweep up - it was easier to sweep up afterwards than empty the bag on the dust collector! Get the FEIN !

[redbopeep]

Chips and course sawdust isn't the problem. It's the very fine dust that'll kill you one day if SWMBO doesn't get you first for getting all that fine dust on everything in the house. Good enough may make you feel better that doing nothing but it isn't. How much perfection is worth more than your lungs?
Listen to Uncle Cleek.

you = Dust mask.
house = isolate the shop from it. shouldn't have same vent system/heat a/c system as the rest of the house.

[Jim Ledger]

house = isolate the shop from it. shouldn't have same vent system/heat a/c system as the rest of the house.

It would be somewhat cheaper to put in a nice 5 HP Oneida cyclone with a pleated filter, like the one pictured. Noisy, maybe, but who cares when your running a table saw or planer. An advantage would be a lowering of the ambient dust levels in the whole house as two thousand cubic feet of air per minute get sucked in and filtered out.

[redbopeep]

It would be somewhat cheaper to put in a nice 5 HP Oneida cyclone with a pleated filter, like the one pictured. Noisy, maybe, but who cares when your running a table saw or planer. An advantage would be a lowering of the ambient dust levels in the whole house as two thousand cubic feet of air per minute get sucked in and filtered out.

If only it would work like that :) If you can guarantee that you pull air FROM the house and exhaust outside--great. Otherwise, no go because you'll simply help circulate that dust through the house. I believe this is largely because Dust pickup designs on most woodworking equipment just doesn't do the job. No matter the fine "collection" system if your table saw or planer or sander doesn't have decent pickup. Dust everywhere.

We've been lucky to have detached garage/workshop or radiator heating systems w/o forced air and thus the houses we've lived in have been truly easily segregated (airwise) from the workshop.

In today's houses, too often the garage vent system is part of the house vent system. Frequently people have their shop in the garage or basement. Bad set up for filtration typically.

[Paul Girouard]

In today's houses, too often the garage vent system is part of the house vent system.


Frequently people have their shop in the garage or basement.





Humm where do you live? Garages should not be connected to the house return air unless some elaborate fire damper system is installed, fire would travel down / thru any return air. Thats not allowed around here, via most building codes.

But yes dust would in fact make it between the living and shop space IF they where directly connected.

And a system outside the shop would be best BUT there are issues. Jim's system is good, IMO it becomes a "whats your personal breaking point" spelled more clearly , 'dollar amount" that your willing to spend to collect dust.

[redbopeep]

Humm where do you live? Garages should not be connected to the house return air unless some elaborate fire damper system is installed, fire would travel down / thru any return air. Thats not allowed around here, via most building codes.

But yes dust would in fact make it between the living and shop space IF they where directly connected.

And a system outside the shop would be best BUT there are issues. Jim's system is good, IMO it becomes a "whats your personal breaking point" spelled more clearly , 'dollar amount" that your willing to spend to collect dust.

Paul, as I've mentioned, we've never had garage nor workshop connected to house vent system. However, I've seen houses with shared vent systems between house and workshop or house and garage. You are correct that return should not happen via house register but yet I've seen it in...lets see...MD, MN, VA, WV, TX, as well as CA. In all cases (except the CA one) I believe the home owner made changes to the HVAC system to keep warm or cool air from exiting the house/garage and was using the garage more as rec-room or workshop space than garage. The California one was a brand new townhouse on the beach near Del Mar that we rented for 6 months in 1991 and it was just plain weird in numerous ways including having forced air into the 2 car garage and a return duct grate IN-THE-DOOR between the living space and the garage. Go figure, that should have been a fire resistant door but instead it had an air grate in it. :eek: That (about 2000 sf) townhouse also had just a 50 amp service for the entire place. You don't know how many times we knocked out the main breaker while living there.

[Jim Budde]

I concure with latter posts.. a cyclone system is logial solution for a pro or active amateur, but not very practical for a part time hobbist.

I have a 1.5 stall garage shop with an 8" jointer, big old arn table and band saws and various other sawdust creators and am quite happy with the following:1.5 hp Steel City dust collector, a mid-priced Jet ceiling installed air filtration system and the biggest vac Rigid sells. And by the way, I have asthma and whole set up costs considerably less than $1500.

As others have said,I think sometimes our forum goes to great links to provide the very best information possible but often times forgets most folks asking questions are(a) not living in their shops nor (b)making a living from their shops

From the heartlands of America,
Jim

[TerryLL]

Jim,

You're right. Your system is about the same system I have and it is perfectly adequate for the weekend and evening woodworker. But I am in my shop 6-8 hours a day almost every day of the week, and it is not an adequate system for that level of use. A production shop running full tilt needs a larger system, or a lot of time will be wasted keeping the undersized system performing at its rated capacity, which is what I am up against right now.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

My shop space was formerly the attached garage of my home. No ducting issues from the house. When putting the larger clear story shop space back up we installed large and small fans in the peak of one shop wall (away from the shop doors). Large fan to really clear the air, small fan to create negative pressure and minimize migration of dust and fumes into the living space. I thought hard about a cyclone system, but settled for a couple bag collectors (Ok, they were a bargain), one in the center of the shop, one in the corner. Minimal ducting. I also have an ambient ceiling filter. This strays from the original question but what the hay. Cyclones may be number one, but not the only answer.

[SBrookman]

So much information, so many products. I punted. Gave my brother all the info and a link to this discussion and asked him to decide he wants for his new shop. Someday soon I'll have to get one for my own shop, but for now I'll do what minimal planing I do outdoors and sand with a mask or respirator.