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View Full Version : You Bush haters need to think about this...



Phillip Allen
08-12-2008, 07:08 PM
He is portrayed as stupid and worse. An administration of incompetentants. He has evil minions and breaks laws with inpunity...

What concerns me is how remarkedly

EASY

it was...

It's not just the American public he has fooled...it's all those high falootin lawyers that both the republicans and

DEMOCRATS

have elected to prevent this!


(and some of you guys actually WANTED Hilly to replace him ...or was it to take the baton from him)

in the end...we are truly pitiful...

Nicholas Scheuer
08-12-2008, 07:18 PM
Well., Bush did NOT get any hepl from me, so stuff it Allen. (like you voted for Kerry? Tell us another one.)

Obama could outperform Bush if he showed up at the Oval Office only two days each week!

Moby Nick

Yeadon
08-12-2008, 07:20 PM
Meh.

StevenBauer
08-12-2008, 07:22 PM
What concerns me is how remarkedly

EASY

it was...

in the end...we are truly pitiful...




That's why we're so upset!:(:eek::(

ljb5
08-12-2008, 07:22 PM
It's not just the American public he has fooled...

Not all of us. :)

http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/drunk-bush-olympics.jpg

The thing you have to understand, Phillip, is that a vote is much like a bullet. You can use it wisely, or you can use it poorly --- but ultimately, you are responsible for how you use it.

A bullet doesn't know if it's being fired at an armed assailant or an innocent kid. You need to make that decision.

You can't blame anyone else for that decision.


(and some of you guys actually WANTED Hilly to replace him ...or was it to take the baton from him).

And you want McCain to replace him? You just love getting fooled over and over again.

skuthorp
08-12-2008, 07:27 PM
"An administration of incompetentants"
I think his admin has had a very well planned agenda, and carried it out well. Trouble was they believed their own propaganda.
"He has evil minions and breaks laws with inpunity..."
Now there you do have it right, once again following their agenda.
But the political community is a closed one to a great degree and they are unlikely to prosecute their own, especially since the mass media is so tame, beholden to it's shareholders and advertisers and partisan in it's attitudes now.

BrianW
08-12-2008, 07:30 PM
I don't remember hiring lawyers to prevent the wrong person from being elected.

Memphis Mike
08-12-2008, 07:33 PM
It's not just the American public he has fooled...

I been tryin to stay outa this crap but speak for yourself on that one Phillip. I didn't vote for him and was well aware of the harm he could and did cause. It's just that it's much worse than I expected.

You on the other hand voted for guy.:rolleyes:

Captain Blight
08-12-2008, 07:50 PM
It's not that all of the Bush administration is incompetent; some of them are very very good at what they do. It's that the first four years of his administration, and in particular the first two, were almost completely dedicated to punishing those who dared oppose his point of view. Part of this punishment included a complete dismissal of anything anyone on the Left wanted. Now, I don't know about you but that sounds to me like taxation without representation, and we have it on excellent authority that is grounds for armed insurrection.

Phillip Allen
08-12-2008, 09:24 PM
sigh...I wish it hadn't been so easy and I wish the other branches of government hadn't lain down for him...every one of those incompetents were voted for by some one here... I was against the Patriot Act from the start...I believe I said so some years ago but I won't bother trying to prove it...it won't make any difference anyway

Peter Malcolm Jardine
08-12-2008, 09:25 PM
I don't live there. ;)

Tom Montgomery
08-12-2008, 09:34 PM
Dubya is an intellectual lightweight and moral coward.

I do not believe everyone in his administration deserves such disdain, although Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz ought to be prosecuted for their crimes. The majority of Bush administration lackeys resemble Rice and Powell: "team players" who never understood that their loyalty belongs to the American people rather than to the office of the vice president.

This administration has been nothing if no ideological. Unfortunately that ideology has proven to be completely bankrupt.

Phillip Allen
08-12-2008, 09:37 PM
What I'm saying, Tom, is that this admin has had a LOT of help from both sides of the aisle...

I always thought FDR's gathering of power to the office was gonna jump up and bite the people...(I'm not suggesting he was an isolated thing... just the most obvious up until now)

Mrleft8
08-12-2008, 09:37 PM
I don't hate him.... I don't respect him. I think he's an idiot, a fool, a moron, and an unbelievably arrogant megalomaniac, but I don't hate him. I wish he had never been appointed to his position by crooks and fools, but that's kinda irrelavent now. What's important is fixing what he ....er..... How to say it in polite terms, but still give it the upff it deserves..... How to fix what he .... fornicated in a most unpleasent way-up.

Phillip Allen
08-12-2008, 09:41 PM
I'm on your side Lefty...but I'd bet the libs won't fix it...they'll use it

Tom Montgomery
08-12-2008, 09:47 PM
Philip -- The vast majority of Democrats in Congress have proven to be cowards, weaklings, or both. Which is why I appreciate Obama's consistent opposition to the Bush foreign policy and reject out-of-hand accusations by folks like Bob Smalser that such opposition was "easy" and inconsequential.

The Georgia situation should be a wake-up call. This administration has been playing with gasoline and matches, giggling all the while. But I don't think they are laughing now.

skuthorp
08-12-2008, 09:48 PM
"they'll use it"

Absolutely certain Phillip.

Phillip Allen
08-12-2008, 09:49 PM
they'll be able to easily blame it on the other party...(the forum's koolade drinkers will believe it)

ljb5
08-12-2008, 09:50 PM
but I'd bet the libs won't fix it...they'll use it

That's what you think....

But then again, you voted for Bush twice, so it's not like you have a friggin' clue about anything.

Phillip Allen
08-12-2008, 09:59 PM
That's what you think....

But then again, you voted for Bush twice, so it's not like you have a friggin' clue about anything.


I hope you're right and we get our constitution back...not just lib service but the real thing

Tom Montgomery
08-12-2008, 10:04 PM
This administration's policies have placed this nation in greater danger than we faced only eight years ago.

That is not a consequence of incompetence so much as of a bankrupt ideology. Has a weak and incompetent opposition in Congress enabled the Bush administration? You bet. But now we have a clear choice between more of the same ideology and a new direction.

Glen Longino
08-12-2008, 10:17 PM
I hope you're right and we get our constitution back...not just lib service but the real thing

You've watched Bush and Cheney give away the constitution, kill thousands of us and wound 10s of thousands more the last few years, and now you want Obama to fix it. Why don't you insist that Bush and Cheney fix it in the next five months before they leave office. They broke it!

Phillip Allen
08-12-2008, 10:20 PM
so Glen...you don't want Obama to fix it 'till YOU'RE through using it for your agenda?

Tylerdurden
08-12-2008, 10:30 PM
What I love about this is with all the thousands of points of evidence that there is no voice in government for the people many here refuse to admit that its over. They hold on like drunken sailors to the next vote, the next protest thinking things will change.

Its folly and most of you know it. Most just lack the courage to face the fact that only violent revolution is left. Well that and they still want to watch Hi-Def TV.:eek:

ljb5
08-12-2008, 10:30 PM
so Glen...you don't want Obama to fix it 'till YOU'RE through using it for your agenda?


I read Glen's post three times, and that's clearly not what he said.

Hughman
08-12-2008, 10:45 PM
What I love about this is with all the thousands of points of evidence that there is no voice in government for the people many here refuse to admit that its over. They hold on like drunken sailors to the next vote, the next protest thinking things will change.

Its folly and most of you know it. Most just lack the courage to face the fact that only violent revolution is left. Well that and they still want to watch Hi-Def TV.:eek:

Mark, Violence only breeds more violence, and the violated are going to be the little guy.

How are you going to reverse the hold the plutocrats have on the people? The way the French did it in 1789?

skuthorp
08-12-2008, 10:53 PM
"The way the French did it in 1789?"
Just think about it, the rumble of the tumbrils in the streets of Washington, the swish and crash of the guillotine!
Surely it would be shown on prime-time TV, except for Fox of course, they'd all be in the pokey awaiting their turn with 'Madame la guillotine" themselves."
Who'd be first? Rummey? Dick? Nominate your favourite(?) congressman for the chop!

Captain Blight
08-12-2008, 10:54 PM
the forum's koolade drinkers Splainins plz. You say this a lot but I don't think you've ever explained it. If it's a reference to the Matrix, it's wrong. If it's a reference to Jonestown, then it was Flav*R*Ade, not Kool-Aid.

Captain Blight
08-12-2008, 10:56 PM
"The way the French did it in 1789?"
Just think about it, the rumble of the tumbrils in the streets of Washington, the swish and crash of the guillotine!
Surely it would be shown on prime-time TV, except for Fox of course, they'd all be in the pokey awaiting their turn with 'Madame la guillotine" themselves."
Who'd be first? Rummey? Dick? Nominate your favourite(?) congressman for the chop!Oooohhhh..... I like this idea an awful lot.

My wet dream is that Obama declares the Bushes, Rummy, Cheney, Wolfowitz et. al. Persona non grata during his inauguration speech and seizes their assets to help pay for the damage they've caused and then gives them 24 hours to get their stank off of American soil.

skuthorp
08-12-2008, 10:59 PM
Just a thought, George will most likely give pre-emptive pardons to all and sundry, but can he pardon himself?

Tylerdurden
08-12-2008, 11:00 PM
Mark, Violence only breeds more violence, and the violated are going to be the little guy.

How are you going to reverse the hold the plutocrats have on the people? The way the French did it in 1789?

Just stand on the corner and hold your sign. When I mean Violent only the oppressor decides the level of violence. The fact is it can be bloodless but its more likely change will be violently opposed.
Its the commitment to confront that that forces change.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-12-2008, 11:08 PM
He is portrayed as stupid and worse....

Even tho' he proclaims himself "the Decider" he has been shown to be Cheney's knee-dummy numerous times and he let Rumsfeld overule the smartest minds in our armies to no good result. You want more?


An administration of incompetentants. He has evil minions and breaks laws with inpunity......

As a sitting president he is in the driver's seat. The only way to bring him low is impeachment which even a Republican controlled congress found daunting.


What concerns me is how remarkedly

EASY

it was...

It's not just the American public he has fooled...it's all those high falootin lawyers that both the republicans and

DEMOCRATS

have elected to prevent this!


(and some of you guys actually WANTED Hilly to replace him ...or was it to take the baton from him)

in the end...we are truly pitiful...

1. Easy? He won the second time by a bare minimum and the first time he was handed the job by a Republican controlled Supreme Court.
2. The tactics imployed by Karl Rove played on all the cleavages in American society and these will fester long after Bush is gone from the scene. Is that the kind of america you want your descendents to inhabit?
3. If you stand by your evaluation that he fooled the people you'll have to accept the idea that the election was won by deceit. You certain you wanna' go that route?
4. When you disdain Hillary Clinton you are disdaining a very accomplished individual. You may not like her but she got where she is without having a president daddy who was plugged in to the highest level of a political party. No Texas oil billionaires to grease her path, either. When she took her senate seat she was a mover and shaker from the git-go. The congressional careers of Cheney and Rumsfeld where like spit in the ocean by comparison. Bush ran but got nowhere.

LeeG
08-13-2008, 07:05 AM
Phillip, looks like you're doing some thinking

cats..paw
08-13-2008, 07:30 AM
But I continue to wonder....how could so many people vote for such an under achiever....twice, no less?

Bush's record was out for all to see. He didn't get anything (that I've ever heard of) that wasn't just handed to him. He failed in so many things...he was certainly no leader.

He was the perfect patsy for Cheney, Rove and the whole blood sucking gang.

Wasn't it just obvious...even before the first election?

:(

Chris Coose
08-13-2008, 07:34 AM
You've watched Bush and Cheney give away the constitution, kill thousands of us and wound 10s of thousands more the last few years, and now you want Obama to fix it. Why don't you insist that Bush and Cheney fix it in the next five months before they leave office. They broke it!


Bingo.

What twists and turns these slimy dubbya voters will come up with to vote republican again.

Mrleft8
08-13-2008, 07:58 AM
But I continue to wonder....how could so many people vote for such an under achiever....twice, no less?

Bush's record was out for all to see. He didn't get anything (that I've ever heard of) that wasn't just handed to him. He failed in so many things...he was certainly no leader.

He was the perfect patsy for Cheney, Rove and the whole blood sucking gang.

Wasn't it just obvious...even before the first election?

:( It was obvious to some of us. I heard it explained once by (I think) Peter Jennings as something along the lines of "People like a person they feel is like them, but maybe not quite. We all like to feel smarter than someone." And clearly George W. Bush is someone that most people can feel smarter than.

cats..paw
08-13-2008, 08:52 AM
Yeah, lefty, to me too.

I felt in 2000 that the guy couldn't possibly do the job. How come the (almost) majority of the voters couldn't or wouldn't see that the job of President requires a really smart, really hard working, successful person. Someone connected to smart people, not smart asses. Either that or (nearly) everyone loses.

Now I just feel sorry for the guy. I feel he got suckered into running in the first place...probably suckered himself into it, too. And now he's not just the class dunce, he's the world's dunce.

And I feel sorry for us, because now we all have to pay to clean up his administration's mess.

:(

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 08:58 AM
Bingo.

What twists and turns these slimy dubbya voters will come up with to vote republican again.

We won't be able to "fix it" until non-thinkers give up criminal partisanship...join us and maybe ...together...we'll fix it the sooner

cats..paw
08-13-2008, 09:04 AM
We won't be able to "fix it" until non-thinkers give up criminal partisanship...join us and maybe ...together...we'll fix it the sooner

Agreed!


And actually, I don't hate the man, just a lot of what his administration has done in his name.

.

James McMullen
08-13-2008, 09:46 AM
Now remember here folks, Dubya was not elected by a majority of the American populace. In the last election, 40% of the elegible voting public did not even bother to vote, so Bush "won" by gathering 30% to Kerry's 29.5% or so. This administration has been very successful in garnering just enough support from just the right places in order to ramrod through their agenda in a winner-take-all fashion despite never truly having a majority of popular support.

There is an inherent flaw in democracy anyways: a full 50% of the voters are below average in their ability to make wise choices. The same group of folks who can't figure out how to eat right and exercise, who fail to avoid buying bigger houses than they can afford with adjustable rate mortgages, who let their kids be raised with the TV as babysitter, who bitch about the price of filling up the tank while buying Hummers, Escalades and Excursions (on credit, of course), and who let themselves be swayed by 15 second soundbites and attack ads rather than actually studying and thinking about the relevant issues--these people get to drive their flabby, overweight, underintellectual selves in a single occupancy SUV to the polls too.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-13-2008, 09:51 AM
We won't be able to "fix it" until non-thinkers give up criminal partisanship...join us and maybe ...together...we'll fix it the sooner

You and your side don't have a lot of credance having won twice by playing to every bias in the Amercan polity. Bush played the redneck card , the right to life card, the gun-hugger card, the prayer in school card, the ignorance is bliss card and, and the Jeezus is my buddy card. And, in Ohio, which put Bush over the top, his people also played the homosexual marriage card to great success.
Your side doesn't have much to offer if past performance is any guide. I suspect that your side will endure a minority status that is long and deep. It is well deserved. Might as well get use to it.

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 09:52 AM
Now remember here folks, Dubya was not elected by a majority of the American populace. In the last election, 40% of the elegible voting public did not even bother to vote, so Bush "won" by gathering 30% to Kerry's 29.5% or so. This administration has been very successful in garnering just enough support from just the right places in order to ramrod through their agenda in a winner-take-all fashion despite never truly having a majority of popular support.

There is an inherent flaw in democracy anyways: a full 50% of the voters are below average in their ability to make wise choices. The same group of folks who can't figure out how to eat right and exercise, who fail to avoid buying bigger houses than they can afford with adjustable rate mortgages, who let their kids be raised with the TV as babysitter, who bitch about the price of filling up the tank while buying Hummers, Escalades and Excursions (on credit, of course), and who let themselves be swayed by 15 second soundbites and attack ads rather than actually studying and thinking about the relevant issues--these people get to drive their flabby, overweight, underintellectual selves in a single occupancy SUV to the polls too.

a salient observation...(however, Bush is only one of many who only needed "just enough votes")

I sat next to a German immigrant listening to a chamber orcastra once and between pieces we talked about the voting habits of Americans vs. Germans...she was/is appalled at the indefference here!

Osborne Russell
08-13-2008, 10:11 AM
"You're either with us or you're worth the terrorists." -- The Chimp

"Americans are going to have to watch what they say from now on." -- The Chimp's press secretary.

They threw down the gauntlet. They can pick it up and apologize any time they like. Meanwhile, having been branded an enemy, I'm not inclined to act like a fellow citizen.

The Chimp Squad made it clear from the outset that they weren't interested in persuasion, only in raw power. Such people can only ever be enemies, with the occasional alliance of pure expediency, at best.

Their attack is on the right of conscience itself. They want state religion and politically correct science supported by politically correct science instruction. They want partisan law enforcement and an ocean of pork spending to reward their friends and punish their enemies. They want enough military power to dispense altogether with any need for the assent of the international community to do anything they might decide to do. And they don't mind torturing the constitution to get what they want. They describe themselves as culture warriors.

They'll never be less than enemies to me. It's not a policy dispute. It's a war. They started it.

That they are able to intimidate and bribe the "other party" into cooperating is a peripheral aspect of the situation. It's like blaming the onlookers for failing to stop an armed robbery.

But the good part is, it's an admission that the Chimp Squad has done wrong.

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 10:15 AM
we must not fight amongst ourselves

Osborne Russell
08-13-2008, 10:21 AM
we must not fight amongst ourselves

That's just it. I'm not part their "we."

LeeG
08-13-2008, 10:25 AM
He is portrayed as stupid and worse. An administration of incompetentants. He has evil minions and breaks laws with inpunity...

What concerns me is how remarkedly

EASY

it was...
.

I think it's great you are willing to make the transition from blaming one party (GW, Dems) to seeing common interests that ENABLED GW to implement a dysfunctional ideology. It's not just Republican,neo con, it's American.

But it wasn't easy,,it took years of work, it took fear. It took 9/11, the anthrax attacks and a n infotainment industry willing to work for the interests of power.

LeeG
08-13-2008, 10:26 AM
I sat next to a German immigrant listening to a chamber orcastra once and between pieces we talked about the voting habits of Americans vs. Germans...she was/is appalled at the indefference here!


but now that gas is $4/gal we're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!

High C
08-13-2008, 10:30 AM
Now remember here folks, Dubya was not elected by a majority of the American populace.....This administration....never truly having a majority of popular support....

I assume you suffered the same concerns when Bill Clinton was elected with only 43% of the popular vote?

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 10:30 AM
That's just it. I'm not part their "we."


as long as you see this "black and white" we/they monochromatic view of this earth, people like Bush and company will hold sway

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 10:43 AM
I assume you suffered the same concerns when Bill Clinton was elected with only 43% of the popular vote?

I think that is the problem...we only see the other guy's faults

John of Phoenix
08-13-2008, 11:02 AM
You've been a dubya defender for some time, Phillip.

What exactly prompted this change of heart? The attorney scandal? Warrantless surveillance? Signing statements? Torture?

James McMullen
08-13-2008, 11:14 AM
High C, Bill Clinton did not take his 43% of the vote as a mandate to impose his will against the rest of the electorate the way that GW has taken his 30% or so to as an excuse to flout the Constitution. Bush has been the most divisive and partisan politician since Civil War times--perhaps since ever.

But to tell you the truth, I'm ok with lots of people not voting. In fact, I would prefer that only reasonable, intelligent, well-informed people who agree with me in every way choose to exercise the franchise to vote.

High C
08-13-2008, 11:31 AM
High C, Bill Clinton did not take his 43% of the vote as a mandate to impose his will against the rest of the electorate the way that GW has taken his 30% or so to as an excuse to flout the Constitution. Bush has been the most divisive and partisan politician since Civil War times--perhaps since ever...

This is a narrowly partisan perspective. I can assure you that just as many people harbor the same feelings about Bill Clinton. He attempted to impose his agenda with great vigor. Of course, he quickly lost majority control of the Congress as a direct result of that "vigor". Remember the attempt to take over the health care industry which failed to earn even a single vote in the Senate? The corruption, weekly scandals, the routine lying, the divisive approach to dealing with his opponents, his "politics of personal destruction", the many thugs who worked for him, Hillary...on and on. As deeply as you may feel about GW Bush, I promise you, it's not the slightest bit unique.

I share your opinion about who votes. I despise registration drives that dilute the power of the informed vote by registering those who otherwise don't give enough of a damn to do it themselves.

Osborne Russell
08-13-2008, 12:26 PM
This is a narrowly partisan perspective. I can assure you that just as many people harbor the same feelings about Bill Clinton. He attempted to impose his agenda with great vigor. Of course, he quickly lost majority control of the Congress as a direct result of that "vigor". Remember the attempt to take over the health care industry which failed to earn even a single vote in the Senate? The corruption, weekly scandals, the routine lying, the divisive approach to dealing with his opponents, his "politics of personal destruction", the many thugs who worked for him, Hillary...on and on. As deeply as you may feel about GW Bush, I promise you, it's not the slightest bit unique.

The difference is attacking the opposition within the constitution versus attacking the constitution.


I share your opinion about who votes. I despise registration drives that dilute the power of the informed vote by registering those who otherwise don't give enough of a damn to do it themselves.

Me too. And if that makes me an elitist, so be it. To hell with these people. We're talking about something precious here. Precious and fragile.

Memphis Mike
08-13-2008, 12:58 PM
We won't be able to "fix it" until non-thinkers give up criminal partisanship...join us and maybe ...together...we'll fix it the sooner

So how do you plan on fixing it, Phillip, by voting for another Republican?

Go right ahead and if he wins, a couple of years from now I'll be telling you "I told you so" again.

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 01:06 PM
You've been a dubya defender for some time, Phillip.

What exactly prompted this change of heart? The attorney scandal? Warrantless surveillance? Signing statements? Torture?

it's been gradual John...I would like to point out that my early defence was against what I think of as mindless partisanship...ill-jay calls me an idiot for not obaying him and I naturally rebell against that (figuritively speaking of course...he HAS done a lot of damage to the Democrat party though)


beyond the early stuff though, I haven't defended him so much as I have defended my freedom of choice...which would be denied by some here...they don't see any fault in their behaviour though...therefore cannot be "educated" easily...lost causes

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 01:10 PM
High C, Bill Clinton did not take his 43% of the vote as a mandate to impose his will against the rest of the electorate the way that GW has taken his 30% or so to as an excuse to flout the Constitution. Bush has been the most divisive and partisan politician since Civil War times--perhaps since ever.

But to tell you the truth, I'm ok with lots of people not voting. In fact, I would prefer that only reasonable, intelligent, well-informed people who agree with me in every way choose to exercise the franchise to vote.

I see a disparity in your numbers James

Bush had the majority of votes (of those who voted) which you say is 30% of theoretically available votes)

where does Clinton's 43% come from? less than half of the available votes? 43% of votes cast? what?

ljb5
08-13-2008, 02:07 PM
Bush had the majority of votes (of those who voted).

No, he didn't.


Bush: 50,456,002
Gore: 50,999,897

Osborne Russell
08-13-2008, 03:15 PM
as long as you see this "black and white" we/they monochromatic view of this earth, people like Bush and company will hold sway

It is you who insist on black and white, and your intransigence which perpetuates the situation. You won't countenance self-defense unless it's selfless.

If the Bush League declares me their enemy, am I supposed to argue the point with them? While they continue to practice their oppression and thievery?

The effect of your insistence on primary focus on the personal motivation of any criticism is to simply fail if not refuse to deal with the substance.

Any point in a debate has at least two answers, yes and no. You can avoid the choice only so long. But as soon as someone chooses, you immediately want to shift the inquiry to personal motives which you rarely even name, and if you did, the issue of whether they are at play or not could be debated forever without really deciding the question, and even if it was, then there would have to be another debate about whether and to what extent they affect the force of the substantive criticism. So the debate is thrown into endless limbo. Who benefits from it?

Over the years, surely you have noticed that in general, the anti-Bush contingent has generally buried the other side in substance, which the other side cheerfully ignores and then changes the subject; perhaps throwing in a few threats. Then you want us to turn the other cheek.

In sum, your position seems to be to require an impossible standard of disinterestedness, more from those who are acted upon from the actors, before the substance of any question can be discussed. But avoiding the substance of the question is immoral. Someone will take a position; someone will decide, someone will act, the various personal motives being whatever they may be.

The goverment ACTS IN YOUR NAME. This being a democracy, you don't just have a right to an opinion, you have a duty to have an opinion and to allow it to be tested by debate. It's the engine of self-government.

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 04:41 PM
I'm sorry not to have been on the same page with you Osborne. I am trying to fix that which I see as needing it and to that end to find consensus in our various points of view and to focus on those overlaps...If I have failed to communicate that to you then it is my failing and for that I am sorry and will try harder...

Phillip

High C
08-13-2008, 04:46 PM
I see a disparity in your numbers James

Bush had the majority of votes (of those who voted) which you say is 30% of theoretically available votes)

where does Clinton's 43% come from? less than half of the available votes? 43% of votes cast? what?

Bill Clinton got 43% of the popular vote in the 1992 election. There were three strong candidates, and he won the plurality with 43.

GW Bush got 49+% of the popular vote in 2000. Gore got slightly more, a slim majority. But we don't elect our Presidents by the popular vote. The popular vote is used, state by state, to guide the members of the Electoral College how to vote. It's winner take all, state by state, with very few historical exceptions.

skuthorp
08-13-2008, 04:53 PM
Quote James McMullen:
"........................a full 50% of the voters are below average in their ability to make wise choices. The same group of folks who can't figure out how to eat right and exercise, who fail to avoid buying bigger houses than they can afford with adjustable rate mortgages, who let their kids be raised with the TV as babysitter, who bitch about the price of filling up the tank while buying Hummers, Escalades and Excursions (on credit, of course), and who let themselves be swayed by 15 second soundbites and attack ads rather than actually studying and thinking about the relevant issues--these people get to drive their flabby, overweight, underintellectual selves in a single occupancy SUV to the polls too."

In the days when the black dog haunted me I used to use statements like this to say that Nuke war could be justified on statistical grounds. That the great majority of humans were so stupid that they weren't worth saving anyway. I got over it, but every now and again it comes back to haunt me.

BTW, if ljb's figures are right
"Bush: 50,456,002
Gore: 50,999,897"
how is the present admin a legal entity under the constitution?

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 04:54 PM
Bill Clinton got 43% of the popular vote in the 1992 election. There were three strong candidates, and he won the plurality with 43.

GW Bush got 49+% of the popular vote in 2000. Gore got slightly more, a slim majority. But we don't elect our Presidents by the popular vote. The popular vote is used, state by state, to guide the members of the Electoral College how to vote. It's winner take all, state by state, with very few historical exceptions.


I was interested in the numbers...Bush got elected with 30% of the votes while Clinton got elected with 43% of the votes...sounds skewed somehow

Captain Blight
08-13-2008, 04:58 PM
I'd like to say that I think what Mr Allen is doing is laudable, and commendable. How many of us really truly look hard at what we believe in, and see if what we're getting out of ourr lives measures up to what we think we deserve? Moreover, how many of us have it within ourselves to do that and then to openly say, "I believe I was wrong about some of what I said earlier."?


Kudos to you, Mr Allen. Thank you for helping raise the bar.

Chris Coose
08-13-2008, 04:59 PM
What exactly prompted this change of heart?

Phillip will have to do these exercises to bring himself to vote for McCain because he sees the republican as the best protector of the constitution.
Took him a while to see the dubbya is a bad guy.

High C
08-13-2008, 05:00 PM
I was interested in the numbers...Bush got elected with 30% of the votes while Clinton got elected with 43% of the votes...sounds skewed somehow

No, that's not what he was trying to say. Bush got 49+% of the vote in 2000. Given the percentage of the populace that votes, that's approximately 30% of the voting age population.

Phillip Allen
08-13-2008, 05:02 PM
well, when the two numbers were placed side by side without qualification what does that signify?

High C
08-13-2008, 05:07 PM
...
"Bush: 50,456,002
Gore: 50,999,897"
how is the present admin a legal entity under the constitution?

Here's a Wikipedia article that makes it pretty clear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College

It's a system that was born long ago when it was not physically practicle to hold a national vote in such a large country. As was demonstrated in the 2000 election, it can produce the wrong result in a very close election. Gore won more votes, but Bush won more of the states' electors. Whatever candidate wins the most votes in a given state earns ALL the electors for that state, winner take all.

High C
08-13-2008, 05:08 PM
well, when the two numbers were placed side by side without qualification what does that signify?

The usual..... :D

Frank Wentzel
08-13-2008, 05:19 PM
So all that we, who do not have a monochromatic view (neocon) of the world, must do is to give up our positions to those that do have a monochromatic view and go the "mono" way and we will all be happily united.

I don't like strife but when the view from the right is "my way or the highway" I don't see an alternative. The right is not willing to compromise! Without compromise there can be no cooperation!


/// Frank ///

skuthorp
08-13-2008, 05:42 PM
Thanks High C