What does it take to live in a marina?

[sc2]

I want to live on a cruising boat and travel extensively. The problem in getting started is funds. Also I have no sailing experience except a couple of lessons. I know that some think that the way to go is to wait until one has accumulated the cash then buy a boat and go, but that approach might never work for me and the way I see it is that getting the boat will be the beginning of my new life and when my small inheritance (10K) comes through it will be my one chance.

The above figure is an approximate total of what I will have to work with for ALL of the expenses of getting a sailboat and moving onboard.

I've heard a lot of differing opinions on the chance of finding a slip where I can stay on the boat, mostly negative.

What is the cost going to be assuming a 30' boat? And what about insurance- which I have heard will be required?

At present I reside in the San Francisco Bay Area, though I might travel to search for the right boat if I think that it will for sure turn out well within my previously mentioned financial limits.

I feel that the present economy might mean some opportunities will turn up locally, and I have 3 eastern locations in mind where bargains might be found: New Orleans ( storm damaged boats), southern Florida ( guys who've gone down the coast then changed their minds), and eastern Maine.

Given my limited experience, wherever I find the boat is probably the same region where it will have to become my residence while I learn to sail her and do repairs for maybe a year or more. I do have some training, 3 semesters of boatbuilding school and a summer in a laminating shop, so I do think that I can see what I will be up against. I do realize the importance of a survey but don't know if I'll be able to afford one.

Is this an impossible dream or what?

sc

[TimH]

not impossible.

Just depends how bad you want it.

[paladin]

Today 10K won't buy all the stuff you need to put on the boat, lines, sextant, books, charts etc...
A marina is the most expensive way to go.....start with building a good dink.....and think more like 20-24 feet instead of 30.......

[Mike Vogdes]

If your going to live in a marina you will need insurance, so what ever kind of boat you wind up with for 10k will need to be insurable. Many of those storm damaged boats you see have salvage titles and are not insurable. Now don't let that slow you down, there are still lots of boats to be had for under 10k that one could fix up and live aboard, usually in the 26' to 28' range..

[Matt Middleton]

Hi there - I lived aboard a 32' sailboat with my wife in a marina in Florida for a year back in '02-'03. It has been a few years, but here are some scattered thoughts based on what I remember.

I think we paid around $9-$10 per foot and a $50 liveaboard fee per month to the marina. Insurance was required, but it was not very expensive - maybe $200 yearly. One key here was that we did not pay the liveaboard rate, which is significantly higher. Our insurance agent told us that so long as we had another place to stay if something were to happen (in our case with friends and family who lived close by), we could legitimately go with the normal recreational use rate. You will want to verify this with your agent.

Slip rates may be higher now, because the rising real estate prices back then were causing many of the local marinas to sell out to developers to be turned into waterfront condo towers. There are also waiting lists for some marinas, so you may not get to live exactly where you want. Some marinas will let you keep the slip if the boat you buy was already kept there.

So you can plan for marina fees and insurance, but you will also have unexpected maintenance costs. This may be even more likely since you don't have much to spend on the initial purchase. This may or may not involve getting hauled out and spending time in a boat yard, which opens another can of worms. Hauling is expensive (a few hundred dollars round trip), yard fees can be as much or more than marina fees, and projects always take longer than you think they will. Also, keep in mind that not all marinas let you do your own work, so you may have to travel to get one that will.

As I recall, it was a pretty cheap existence for us because the limited space prevented too many purchases. We made a rule that anything that came onto the boat required getting rid of something else - that kept it from getting too cluttered up. Another potential gotcha is in food expenses - cooking on a boat can be more of a chore than with a real kitchen, so it is tempting to eat out, which can be much more expensive than cooking.

Another thing to take into consideration is that when you live aboard, you tend to set the boat up for that. For us that meant a shore power connection, a hatch mounted AC unit, a cockpit awning, and a lot of stuff down below. My wife was in school at the time, so we had books everywhere that had to be stowed for sailing and protected from humidity while the AC was removed. It will take some discipline to keep the boat ready for sailing while you live on it, otherwise it may be so tedious a process that you never leave the dock.

So in summary, it may be possible to do what you are proposing. You will need to plan very thouroughly and do plenty of research, as well as live a disciplined life once aboard to minimize expenses.

I hope some of this is helpful, and good luck in your endeavor!

Matt

[Bill Lowe]

Go for it. I lived on a converted Monomy surf boat with a boom tent for 2 years. Later a Catalina 22 for a year then a Flica for 2 years. After that a Rafiki 37 for 7 years 4 of which was a circumnavigation. Usually worked in boatyards and marinas while living aboard which gave me dockage and an income.

[PatCassidy]

First see how long the waiting list is to get into a marina. Then check to see if it allows live-aboards and how long that wait list is. Then, before you get a wooden boat, see if the marina allow wooden boats.

Especially being in California, check out Catalina 30s and Newport 30s. They are very roomy and there a usually a good number of them on the market. And they are great boats - for local cruising. Before you buy a bluewater boat enjoy some weekend sailing.

When I bought a sailboat in 1997 the marina was 40% empty. Now the same marina has a wait list of over a year. It is probably longer for live-aboards.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Paladin is right.

Find somewhere where you can live on a swinging mooring. Better in every way - more secure, miles cheaper and more private.

Don't risk becoming "trailer trash with halyards".

[kc8pql]

My slip on Lake Erie costs $325 a month on a one year contract, for a 45' LOA boat. Minimum $300,000 liability ins. required. I could live aboard there if I wanted to. A few people do. What you can do and where varies widely.

[Thorne]

I'd say impossible dream at this stage.

First, you don't want to be one of those 'dreamer builders' who spend years and most of their income on a cruising sailboat, only to discover that it isn't what they want to do -- usually shortly after launch (if they get that far).

Pick up a cheap fiberglass boat in the 20-25' range, tow it to all the lovely nearby cruising locations in the CA Delta and mountain lakes, and see if that is what rings your chimes.

You can do a tremendous amount of cruising in a trailerable sailboat -- the ones with the swing keels and poptop cabins are best. Try it and see if you like it before going any further.

If you continue to like both sailing and cruising, then consider shopping for a cruising boat **already in a slip with liveaboard rights** in a SF Bay area marina -- 'cause you ain't gonna get in any other way without a loooong wait.

[paladin]

sc2....It might help if we knew where you were planning on staying aboard, what general area, what your basic income would entail, what type of income and time that you have to spend on the boat...too many variables...how are you with hand tools.

[sc2]

Right now my income is zero because I'm in school. Where I will live will probably be near where I find the boat, I'm not especially attached to any geographic area.

My main concern is that I might buy a boat and then find that I can't afford to keep it. Living on a mooring might work but I would need to be able to shower after work during the time I will be getting ready to cruise. That includes time spent at learning to sail as well as repairing and fitting out the boat. I figure that if I had 50K today then I could buy a boat for 25 and take a course at a sailing school and be ready to go in 3 or 4 months. But that isn't going to happen, as I said 10K is about it right now and even that depends on selling a house.

A trailerable boat will not work for me for several reasons which I don't want to go into here. Besides, when I go I really want to go- to be able to move about at will and not be tied to anything on land except maybe an ATM machine for a while so that I can rethink my life. I do realize that I should start small, but I don't see how I could afford to keep a boat without living on it, and I want something that can handle a little bit of weather, like the ones in John Vigors book "20 Small sailboats...".

I've been wondering about the possibility of living on the hook while working at a boatyard or builder, and the shower issue comes to mind immediately - especially if I was in a laminating shop! I have visited several yards in downeast Maine and worked at Lyman Morse for a summer while living in a tent in a park in Rockland.

I have decided that installing and maintaining systems is the side of the marine industry that I am most suited for and hope to figure out how to get into that soon. Other than that my experience is mostly as a freelance stagehand which I really like doing but it requires me to live close to a big city.

I really do appreciate all of the responses and it all adds to my knowledge so thanks everyone!

sc

[Gary Bergman]

My other boat is in Sausalito, in your backyard, in a live aboard marina. That said, I think we have a potential buyer. I'll post again if that changes.........not quite enough cash

[Saltiguy]

How about this? Why not Boat-bum for awhile? Get a liveaboard job as crew on a sailboat. Won't cost you anything, you'll get your experience and you'll learn if you really like it. Try that for a year or two, save your money and a new opportunity will come along. Think about getting a Captains' license - earn while you learn.

[sc2]

My other boat is in Sausalito, in your backyard, in a live aboard marina. That said, I think we have a potential buyer. I'll post again if that changes.........not quite enough cash

When the time comes this sort of opportunity will be ideal. Right now I just need background info as to what I might expect.

I guess that my greatest concern is that I just won't have enough cash and then I'll end up having several more years to wait, and I want to see change in my lifestyle soon.

As far as a crew position, I've given that some thought but I'm not sure that I'd be moving towards my goal. I can see why people would say that I should try it out first to see if it's right for me, but I've been sure for over a decade. The ability to travel at will and for less cost than it takes to remain stationary trumps all other concerns. I don't even know if I'm prone to seasickness but I'm confident that I'll learn to deal with my limitations whatever they turn out to be.

sc

[sc2]

Just a bump.

Any more thoughts out there?

[PatCassidy]

Not sure how you reconcile wanting to travel but not interested in crewing on a boat. Your first post states that you want to travel extensively but currently lack the funds to do so.

And working on a boat for a living would not meet your goals because?

If you do find a boat don't be surprised if most of the folks in your marina have very grand voyaging plans but they never manage to pull the trigger. Their job prevents them from going or they don't have the funds to set sail.

[hansp77]

like has been suggested, I think you should seriously look at crewing-
not just to see if you like it- but to learn to sail as you have also mentioned taking (and paying for obviously) sailing lessons.
Maybe start your way up from crewing on racing boats at you closest yacht club, and then when you have enough experience/skills to offer, do some blue-water crewing- from that point on you will be learning and traveling at the same time- and the more boats you crew on the better idea you will have of what sort of boat you want to buy.
You say money is tight- well you can't afford to go out and buy the wrong boat (fixing it up and pouring your money and time in before realizing it isn't right) can you?

I too find it a bit odd that you are reticent to crew-
whatever the case- with your knowledge and skills (just beginning it seems) you most certainly want to take your time to do your research exhaustively before you buy- in the mean-time, get out there on the water, learning, and in someone else's boat- at no cost to you.
If for some reason you really don't want to get out on the water crewing on someone else's boat- then IMHO there is something odd going on- some over-idealisation of sailing or something...
all the more reason to force yourself to do it and figure out if it really is for you- or you are just in love with the idea of it.

Whatever the case, good luck with your dream Sc2, I hope it works out.

[Tylerdurden]

I am prepping to go homeless on my 26' bristol right now. She is on a mooring I got cheap until October when I head south. I bought her dirt cheap and put maybe 4 k into her.
It all depends on what you want and for me I just want to be as free as possible and not tied down to all the monthly bills of keeping a cell on land.
Old glass is a good start but make sure your handy and able to do most of it yourself. As I have worked as a Marine electrician and do Repair restaurant equipment I can get by pretty well but income I would think that is the biggest issue for most.
You may have to alter your work for the lifestyle depending on what you do.

[sc2]

I am prepping to go homeless on my 26' bristol right now. She is on a mooring I got cheap until October when I head south. I bought her dirt cheap and put maybe 4 k into her.
It all depends on what you want and for me I just want to be as free as possible and not tied down to all the monthly bills of keeping a cell on land.
Old glass is a good start but make sure your handy and able to do most of it yourself. As I have worked as a Marine electrician and do Repair restaurant equipment I can get by pretty well but income I would think that is the biggest issue for most.
You may have to alter your work for the lifestyle depending on what you do.

Ok, this is what I need to hear. Maybe it will be necessary for me to keep the boat on a mooring for a while, even if that means renting a space on land while I save up some cash to travel on.

I am very interested in learning the trade of marine electrician, as well as systems installation/maintenance, and rigging. The systems side of the industry is what I believe is right for me as opposed to constructing hulls. After 3 semesters at The Boat School in Eastport I am sure of that now. My interest in rigging began while I was employed as a stagehand but I haven't found a way to follow up on it yet. I have read Brian Toss's book and am working on Nigel Calder's Mech. & Elec. Manual. I cannot afford another move to New England to attend either the Landing or IYRS schools, though I wish I could. I want to get into the systems side of the industry and this is how I mean to stay close to my goal.

Now on to the crewing issue.
I certainly never meant to imply that I don't want to get out sailing ASAP. Since my father passed away in Janurary I've had a lot of other things on my mind and settling his estate has been part of that but there hasn't been a time when I wouldn't jump at the chance to go sailing if it wasn't going to cost much. The trouble is that I don't know anyone here in CA who has a boat or even shares my interest. I've asked my questions here and I enjoy this forum but do need to develop personal contacts at the water's edge. I guess I need to get out more. Any suggestions for San Francisco Bay?
The mention of taking an actual position on a crew brings up thoughts of schooners in Maine, tourists, and low pay. How many deckhands own cruising boats and use them for their designed purpose? I remember one guy, he was Captain of the Sylvina Beal out of Eastport, and he and his wife went cruising the last I heard but he was a graduate of Maine Maritime and he had held a commission in the Marine Corps. With my limited background I need to focus on finances from the start, hence the title of this thread.

Also I am looking for any advice on how to get into the above mentioned fields of employment.

That and how to "be as free as possible and not tied down to all the monthly bills of keeping a cell on land" as in the quote I used.

Thanks Mark, and all others who've kindly given their opinions.

sc

[Tylerdurden]

Anytime, Head for somewhere else where you can work your way into the field. A boat builder I knew cruised in a 22' boat with his GF from Maine to Fl to work in the Yard I was working in. He kept it right at the dock for a year until he moved up to a larger boat.

[PatCassidy]

Check out the American Sail Training Institute website. Also the Los Angeles Maritime Institute.

Take a look at the pictures from the Festival of Sail pictures I posted today. Speaking from experience, most of the captains of these boats started as tall ship volunteers.

[paladin]

sc2 I am writing a book about this as we speak....the way I got started, and what I found and how the world has changed....where are the opportunities today? all this combined with finding an old boat and what to look for when searching for that fixer upper....I expect a chapter on food/provisioning, basic navigation znd things that you will need to get started.....patience my friend, patience,,,,

[Saltiguy]

Post # 18 said it best. Why buy a POS sailboat to "live" on? That ain't living. Take your 10 grand, stick it in a mutual Fund, get a job crewing on a yacht (sail or power) get your time and experience on the water, study your systems texts, meet people, go places, and get your Captains license. It won't take long and you can be a 100ton licensed captain. By that time you'll know a hell of a lot more than you do now, and if you still want the POS blo-boat, go for it!

[sc2]

A book, Paladin? Well then I'll be waiting. Let me know.

I don't see myself doing much traveling anytime soon, I'll probably be in school in Oakland. Been thinking of taking a short trip to San Diego just to get away for a few days when I can find the time.

I'm serious about wanting in to the marine industry and am hoping that there might be an opportunity near to where I am now, cause travel by land is getting more expensive all of the time, and my fallback position is here.

sc

[sc2]

Post # 18 said it best. Why buy a POS sailboat to "live" on? That ain't living. Take your 10 grand, stick it in a mutual Fund, get a job crewing on a yacht (sail or power) get your time and experience on the water, study your systems texts, meet people, go places, and get your Captains license. It won't take long and you can be a 100ton licensed captain. By that time you'll know a hell of a lot more than you do now, and if you still want the POS blo-boat, go for it!

Well maybe, but that POS will be my means to travel where I want, when I want and last I heard the wind was still free. I want a drastic change of lifestyle and though I do have some ideas I am willing to listen to suggestions.

Yeah hansp77's suggestion about starting with local races then moving to bluewater passages makes a lot of sense. I do realize that I don't have enough familiarity with the subject to really know what kind of boat that I should be looking for but I've got to start somewhere and I have done quite a lot of reading of everything that I can get my hands on, and I know myself well enough to be quite sure that I would not want to live long term on a boat without at least 6' of standing headroom. I do believe that I could handle building a wood/epoxy sheathed strip hull if I could afford the project but I figure the cost is completely out of reach for me in the near future, probably by a factor of 10X.

sc

[Tylerdurden]

Post # 18 said it best. Why buy a POS sailboat to "live" on? That ain't living. Take your 10 grand, stick it in a mutual Fund, get a job crewing on a yacht (sail or power) get your time and experience on the water, study your systems texts, meet people, go places, and get your Captains license. It won't take long and you can be a 100ton licensed captain. By that time you'll know a hell of a lot more than you do now, and if you still want the POS blo-boat, go for it!

Please anchor next to me in your nice boat when Pirates are about.
Its like driving your Bentley into a bad neighborhood.

Besides while your buffing and polishing I will be hitting on your GF:D

[seedy]

I don't have direct experience, but perhaps these sites might be helpful...

http://www.livingaboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/

[Katherine]

Ever consider looking around the Great Lakes for a boat? Not a lot of liveaboards, but the economy has many good boats looking for new homes at reasonable rates.

[sc2]

Thanks Seedy,

Those sites look really interesting, maybe just where I should be asking my questions.

Katherine,

Yes I have thought of the Great Lakes. The thing is that when I choose to travel I usually have to actually move to the new location for a while because vacation travel isn't in my budget. I have been wondering about the Minneapolis/St. Paul area for a while now. If I was to go I would drive and plan to look for work right away, the same if I decide to go to any other place like New Orleans, Florida, or Maine.

sc

[banjoman]

IIRC, my live aboard dock neighbor pays 500 bucks a month plus electricity for his 30 ft slip in Marina Bay (Richmond).
Insurance required.

[dld]

Just a bump.

Any more thoughts out there?

sc2

here is a round about way to get a taste of living aboard to see if you like the way of life before jumping in with both feet.

Buy a 23-25ft trailer sailor, learn to sail, park in it in a campground and live aboard. A lot of people use their sailboats as camper on trips.

This will get you sailing, living aboard in a confine place.

You will have electricity, water and hot showers.

You will see that to take your home sailing can be a chore but doable.

If you can do that for a year or so try putting your boat in a marina and live aboard for a while
Get your feet wet a little at a time instead of jumping in.

After high school I started building a 26ft sailboat, after 10 years of working on it when I could afford to buy materials, I got tired of working on it and bought a small sailboat and started sailing.
Never had time to finish my sailboat but it sits there waiting on me, thirty years it has waited.
My plan was to cast off never to live on dry land again, dreams, some times the work some times they don't.
Those are my thoughts
Good luck on what ever your dream is.

dld

[Thad Van Gilder]

You forgot the Chesapeake. way cheaper than Maine!

-Thad

[SV Papillon]

Some advice I wish someone had given me. Set a minimum timeline, 1-2 years before you buy anything and stick to it. No matter how good a deal sounds there will be others. Do tons of research and in a couple years you should have a pretty good idea of what you are after. IMHO the biggest mistake people make is having a picture in there head of what they think they want finding a boat that they think fits into that picture then spending the next several years fighting, structural problems, layouts that don't work for them poor handling etc etc. They get burned out and give up. PV MX has a never ending stream of such boats. It is a buyers market in a huge way and will probably not change too much in the next several years. Go out get established, start a boat fund. Find somewhere you like to work and possibly live. The best chance for succes is going to be whittling away what you need and want out of cruising and living aboard. Everyone is different and has different priorities.

Good luck
Jake

If you do end up in the bay area, I spent a year in Alameda cheap and quiet

[spirit]

I say, keep your 10K, and find a wealthy person with a yacht who needs a boat sitter and who wants some minor work done on the boat. That way your expenses are near zero for lodging, and you may be able to connect with people who wish a cruising companion. Learn the ropes, the lingo, the people, and love boats.

Meanwhile, finish your schooling. It should come first.

[Ted Hoppe]

I say, keep your 10K, and find a wealthy person with a yacht who needs a boat sitter and who wants some minor work done on the boat. That way your expenses are near zero for lodging, and you may be able to connect with people who wish a cruising companion. Learn the ropes, the lingo, the people, and love boats.

Meanwhile, finish your schooling. It should come first.

I agree too! A becoming a solid sailor on a good boat owned by a great skipper is far better for you at this point. In a few years, find a boat which enables you to fulfill the dream.

With all deference to my much admired forum posters, One can live on a decent boat for little money. I pay less than 200 dollars a month for a slip here in Alameda - on a wonderful estuary with access to the central bay in minutes. Granted it is not a liveaboard but one can live on it three nights a week (you get hot showers, electricity, Water, pumpout, and even free wifi). Moreover - If you live off the hook on weekends and other days in places, on might be able to get 5+ days a week on your boat. Richardson Bay and off Treasure Island still has the "derelict" fleet of worldly adventurists, gypsies sailors, boat hobos and other colorful people - those folks pay nothing for their monthly and share common interests. And - If you are charming and find an interesting girl - you got another two plus nights a week in a warm apartment a-la Jack London...

Sometimes as we get older the risks and struggles for living a more "free lifestyle" seems less convenient and comfortable. The choices we make when older lean to the later. With great admiration of those like Palidin (Chuck) - He took chances and adventure which leads us all to admire his life as most well lived... If he your age, I suspect he would have both a plan of education and binder full of adventures in store.

[mountainsoloist]

Meanwhile, finish your schooling. It should come first.

Great advice, and it will have a massive impact on your future and your budget. Get your degree and learn to sail when you're not studying. You will need an income of some sort even if you live on a boat and travel constantly. The wind is still free as far as I know but boats, maintenance, fuel, sails, clothing, food, and women still cost lots of money. You will make more money with a college degree.

Mark

[outofthenorm]

You folks do realize that this is an old thread?

Norm

[JimConlin]

You folks do realize that this is an old thread?

Norm
... and the OP is still trolling us
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108518

[sc2]

You forgot the Chesapeake. way cheaper than Maine!

-Thad

Yeah? That's a part of the country I haven't seen yet.


Get your degree and learn to sail when you're not studying. You will need an income of some sort even if you live on a boat and travel constantly. The wind is still free as far as I know but boats, maintenance, fuel, sails, clothing, food, and women still cost lots of money. You will make more money with a college degree.

Mark

That's my plan. Actually I'm leaning towards tradeschool, but haven't found what I want yet.


You folks do realize that this is an old thread?

Norm

It is, but it's still relevant to me since my goals are the same, but now I am trying to get some real experience as my more recent threads show. This thread was for the purpose of trying to get an idea of the cost and difficulty of the concept. Also to hear ideas and opinions. At this time I think that some local friends that I have found here on the forum will best be able to tell me what I need to know. However, I still want to hear about other places. For me, to travel is to live.

Thanks to all.

stan creech