Basic woodworking question

[davef]

'nother basic woodworking question. Can anyone describe how it is that pieces of wood can be "shaped" into smooth curves in two planes along with gently varying coner rounds. I'm pretty good at the "cut-it-out-on-a-band-saw-and-run-a-router-around-it" design aesthetic but that has a fairly limited - 2-dimensional result.

The piece in question is my tiller handle which has an arc when viewed from the side and possibly a tapering profile when viewed from the top as well. Although part of the motivation is aesthetic, the width at the back of the handle is defined by the construction of the rudder, but is a bit wide for my hand grip in the front.

The "blank" for the handle was created by band sawing and laminating three pieces of ash. With this construction the handle is obviously uniform in width. The band saw allowed me to get the side profile quite easily but I'm vexed at how to get the top-view tapering profile and have it look half way symetrical and neat. Of course, the easiest way is to just run it through the band saw again one more time in the "top view" but getting the taper to look symetrical and smooth seems beyond my bandsawing skills. In addition, I would like to run a varying corner fillet around the part.

I'm gazing at the legs of my dining room chairs, all of which exhibit these traits, in fact on a far more extreme basis.

Are there tricks or tools here I'm missing?

Then again, I may just run a router around the blank and call it done.

Any advice?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid97/pbde9b5ac3e589d7178a19a8643027919/fa0a3015.jpg.orig.jpg

[davef]

Picture doesn't seem to be working... not sure why...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid97/pbde9b5ac3e589d7178a19a8643027919/fa0a3015.jpg

[Bob Smalser]

Are there tricks or tools here I'm missing?
Refer to my post below on rehabbing old chisels.

Easiest way to get it done...with the added advantage of a look you can't get at all with all but one machine I know of.

When folks want to know why these...

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/31846085.jpg

Look so much better than these...

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/images/products/handsaws/051101.jpg

...its simply a function of changing radius curves in three dimensions that only can be done either by hand or on a spindle sander with air-inflated sanding drums, which are rare accessories not in many shops...and are much more difficult to grind fair curves with than hand tools.

[ 01-07-2004, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Art Read]

Dirty secret time... I made my tiller "blank" from a hunk of ash cut a bit too long and a little "beefier" on the square than I needed it. Then I steam bent it over a jig to the curve I wanted in profile. After that, I put it in a vise, went at it with a power plane, belt sander and random orbital 'till I liked the shape. Fussed with it a bit more with files, chisels, sandpaper and even the random orbital again 'till it felt good running through my hands. I even put a Herreshoff "egg" on the end. It ain't "perfect" by any means, but under a half dozen coats of varnish, it looks, and feels, pretty damn good!

Sometimes, with boat stuff, you just gotta "eyeball" it, hack at it, fuss with it, finnese it and just leave the "precision" tools on the shelf. Abrasives are you friends! ;)

(This was a "test" fit"...)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/p9860801645761b1b1e0f4c7ab10d393d/fc463c36.jpg

I always considered this tiller as a "practice" piece. Funny thing is, it's still on the boat... I still think I'll someday make another with a "prettier" curve. Ash is cheap... But at least now I know I don't have to "worry" about it so much.

[Meerkat]

I think I don't understand the problem. Why can't you take the curved tiller blank and (using something as support under the curve) lay out a taper on the "plan" view and cut it with a table saw, then round it off with a router/rasp/whatever to finish?

[Lucky Luke]

Spoke shave! That's the "magic" tool ;)

[Ron Williamson]

Like Art said,sometimes you have to eyeball it(and know when to stop).
Last week a customer asked about the size,top to bottom,of an arched light valance over a window.She was a bit surprised when I said,"It depends on how I feel that day."
R

[wolfietuk]

One Question, How much taper over what distance? Once this is decided then the piece must be marked and the proper tool chosen. A queen anne table or chair leg is done by marking out all profiles on the blank. as one piece is cut away it is tacked back on, the blank is then flipped and the next side is cut. This is done on all four sides. Then the rasps files sanders and other assorted tools are used to bring the leg into shape.
An alternative I have used to get a tapered effect is done on a joiner. There are several caveats to this method. Extreme care is needed. Joiners like fingers. The joiner must be twice as long as the part of your blank you would like to taper. The joiner must be capable of cutting the depth of your taper. The joiner must be wider than the width of your blank (both ends must be able to rest on the joiner at all times in the case of a piece that is curved). Simply lay the piece on the joiner with the end that will stay full resting past the blade. Keep running the piece through until proper taper is achieved.

Rick Tuk

[NormMessinger]

Nice drawings Dave.

All you need is a hand plane, a spoke shave, some sand paper, a couple of eye balls and some elbow grease. Don't make a major technical problem out of it. Oh, you are also permitted to use a pocket knife in case you want to put some cute little chip carving dodads on the tiller.

[Mrleft8]

If I could read your post, I could probably answer your question. How did you make the damn thing so big?

[Dave Hadfield]

Use hand tools here.

It's a perfect opportunity to enjoy making long, perfect, beautiful shavings. It's also practical and fast.

Don't deny yourself the pleasure.

I'd rough out the top and bottom on the bandsaw and then use the spokeshave held in my shaving bench. Then hand-carve the ball on the end, a bit of sanding, and it's done.

It will evolve a bit as you carve it. That's the nice part.

[Paul Scheuer]

Symmetry is usually the problem. (No one else knows what it was supposed to look like, but they are pretty sure that both sides should look the same).

The solution for me, anyway, is to save the rounding ans smoothing until the very last. All of the core shaping is done with the piece in "block form". Temporarily gluing the cutoff back on can help when don't have a flat surface left for sawing. As the block shape shape nears completion, both sides are shaped in small increments. Make crisp, symmetrical mistakes, if possible. smile.gif

I think I'd free hand the rounding rather than attempt to do it with a router. The results are usually much more fluid when done with rasps and coarse paper.

The real challenge is to make two of something and have them come out "identical". The same methods work.

[Keith Wilson]

Geez, it's just a tiller, hanging out in the air! It doesn't have to fit anything except the rudder (easy) and your hand (flexible). Like Dave says, rough it out on the bandsaw (or sabersaw, if you don't have one) smooth it by hand with a spokeshave, round the corners by hand with the spokeshave and sandpaper. If it takes more than an hour or two, you must have stopped for a beer. If it isn't symmetrical within .005", who's gonna care?

[ 01-07-2004, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[Paul Scheuer]

I went back to read dave's post to see if I was making too much of his project. I think not. He's got some time invested in the lamination, etc. and doesn't want to screw it up at this point. He's also got a good plan. I kind of like the changing radius along the sweep of the tiller. I also believe that the tiller is one piece that deserves the extra time to make it just right. This from the guy that spent the time to reshape the laminated factory tiller, buff the stainless cheek pieces till they looked chromed, put on 9 coats of varnish, then covered most of it up with ringbolt hitching and turk's heads.

The answer to dave's question is probably no there is not a specific tool or quick method to get the ultimate shape that you want.

At this point I'm fairly confortable with whittling roundish shapes out of squarish stock, and might skip a step or two. But when I started, I spent the extra time to do a good layout on the workpiece, just like I would suggest for making a round or oval section spar. A hand plane is probably better for long smooth shapes than a spokeshave, but you might have some luck with one.

If you lay out the intersections of the tangents to the desired radii and the flat surfaces, trim the piece to the intersections, lay out the 16 sided intersection, then do the rounding like a spar (I'd use the shoe shine rag method), you'll end up with a fine looking piece.

Take your time, enjoy the work, it is a hobby, right ?

[CaseyJones]

I saw a similar piece cut out on a bandsaw the other day.

Lay out your profile on one side, and the above view on the top. Cut either out on a bandsaw. Put the cut-offs back on the piece with double sided tape, turn 90 deg, cut out the other profile. By putting the cut-offs back on, you have a flat surface to drive around the band saw table. After both cuts, you now have a rectangular blank with both tapers. Now ann you have to do is round over each corner.

[Bob Smalser]

I know of no better way for even the experienced to get into more trouble whittling long-grained, splintery wood as with a spokeshave.

Including me...and I can read grain and tune up hand tools as well as anybody...and can also gouge out profane chunks as well as anybody...my tiller getting smaller and smaller in the process.

Easier and smarter to learn to use the rasps and files.

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb. php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008610 (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008610)

[ 01-07-2004, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[RGM]

Casey's suggestion of using double stick tape during the sawing out phase (power or hand saw)is a good one. Double stick tape is great. There are some pretty "agressive" double stick tapes available. If you are feeling a little unsure about the process you might want to try cutting out a practice one, or two, on scrap material first. Once you're comfortable move on to your final attempt, which will provide you with the wonderful opportunity of using your eyes and hands to really finalize the shape and fit. It will help you develope eyes that feel and fingers that see. Have fun and good luck.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Bob's right of course about grainy wood (get a "bull rasp," a big rasp used on horses' hoofs, from a farrier supply place), BUT if you can use walnut or some other wood which works equally well, a drawknife is an agreeable tool to ply.

Alan

[Bob Perkins]

Davef,

I like your question - because I often want to find a really exacting way of doing things myself.

But I agree with the crowd that you may be over thinking the problem (which many of us will do forever...)

Use the cut out, tape waste back on, cut out other side method - this is how they do those table legs - when they are roughing them from a blank.

When you go to layout the radius - make pencil lines on the four sides that define them and will guide you to roounding them over. Wider at rudder end - narrower at end of tiller. A sharp spokeshave will do this in a few minutes (note: I love power tools - but more often than you will realize - a hand tool will do the job faster because there is no setup time or test cuts).

Finally - make a flexible sanding block and longboard the edge.

Find a long piece of scrap and do a test - you'll see it isn't tough.

or

invest in a CNC machine smile.gif

Take Care,
Bob

[davef]

Thanks for the lively coversation folks. The "magic trick" I was searching for was the cut out the profile and then tape/glue the cut out back onto the blank so you can do the perpendicular side. You may find this amazing but that had never occurred to me. Of course, that's the purpose for this forum and that question now isn't it!

Thanks and wish me luck....

[georgew]

When I need to shape something like your tiller handle, say a canoe thwart, I cut out the blank and then draw a center line on all planes of the blank. I then roll the edges between the center lines by hand useing a spoke shave. A very nice rolling and changing radius is easy to do, but I am still suprised at how well it turns out. Give it a try. Good luck, George

[Stargazer14]

Golly, thats what I thought they made hand grinders and 60 grit discs for.....
:rolleyes:

[Buddy Mazurek]

I have seen Norm Abram (the new yankee workshop) do it hundreds of times on the table saw with a simple jig as he was making table legs. No way I can explain it but maybe it's on the web-site.

[davef]

Cosmo Lengro

Hmmm, after a perusal of your profile, ahem.
I personaly, would be loathe to be posting such a query here.

Cosmo Lengro

... and by the way... what exactly is THIS supposed to mean????

[Jack Heinlen]

Um, no me gusta la problema. What do you mean you don't trust your bandsawing skills? You can saw within a sixteenth of a line can't ya? Lay it out, leave the line. If you want to get fancy you could do an eight sided, sixteen sided ala a spar(look it up, it's in the archives), but if it were me I'd rough the two dimensions on the band saw and then shave it down. Spokeshaves are good, draw knife perhaps, chisels definately if it has a knob on the end. Turn the piece frequently. Trust your eye. And if it turns out a little wonky, ignore it, it's a tiller, not a Stradivarius.

P.S. Oghh, Art, is that a pistol in your lazarette, or are you just happy to see me? ;)

[ 01-09-2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[davef]

Hmmm, after a perusal of your profile, ahem.

I personaly, would be loathe to be posting such a query here

Gee Cosmos,

So let me get this straight? YOU would be Loathe to post such a query here.... Is that because you're so damn smart that you don't ever need to ask for help? "And based on my profile Ahem????" What the hell is that all about.

So what exactly is your point...was I foolish to ask for help?

I don't quite get your attitude. Isn't that the whole objective of this forum... to ask for help from others that might have more experience than you?

I had a question and I posted it. I got good suggestions. I'm going to use them. I consider that a success. Sorry if this offends you. No, actually upon further thought, I'm not sorry if that offends you. Frankly I hope it does.

[Jack Heinlen]

Um, huh? :confused: What in Dave's profile?

Anyway, you can do this, it's not difficult. A look at oar and spar making articles might be in order, or you could just charge in, shapen up the spoke shave and block plane and chisel and start whitling. A nice thing is that it's not a big piece of stock; if you really screw it up you can start over.

[Bob Smalser]

I've taped on the scabbed sides to bring once-cut Queen Ann table legs back to square before cutting the opposite faces, but looking at your tiller...

...why bother?

Those corners can be taken down accurately to your desired changing radius in mere minutes with rasps and files.

[Jack Heinlen]

Mere minutes if you know where you are going, but if you are feeling your way.... Personally I think I'd use a spoke shave and maybe a block plane, and maybe a rasp or shureform tool when I got close.

In anycase, good luck. There are many ways to skin this cat. Have at it! I don't see what your profile has to do with it. It's a tiller for chrisakes, you could use a broom handle. You'll learn a lot by doing this, and that alone is good. You'll do fine, just go at it.

[davef]

Developable
Beyond
Whirly(?)Whatever that was supposed to be...
Especially
Cellar
Tease

... and I'm an engineer, not a woodworker. And any good engineer knows that only a fool is "loath" to ask for advice in an area outside of his expertise. As would, presumably, any good woodworker.

[Banjo]

G'day all,

Firstly DaveF your question wasn't silly and in no way detracted from anyones opinion of you.

There often are many ways (procedures) to use in order to complete a given task or object.


cosmo said:
if you could draw it in cAD why cannot you see it with your own god given eyes?
don't they call things like that tiller a developeable shape?
got to think beyound the big whirry things.
This reminds me of a time years ago I was called in to pitch a roof on an Architects own home that he designed and drew.

The first carpenter got to the roof stage and balked at the job, stating that the designed roof couldn't be done. The architect sure could draw a damm fine design but he had no pratical construction knowlege and was convinced by the chippy that he had made a mistake somwhere.

The architects wife knew a builder who knew me.... bla bla.. anyway I was called in to investigate the conundrum, after a quick look at the plans I said "what's yer problem?, even my apprentice would be able to work out how to pitch this roof as designed!" smile.gif

The upshot was that we needed to build a couple of raked walls and use a split pitched roof section around the back so from the front the roof looked as per drawings.

The moral of my storey is, we all have areas of expertise, and only by combining knoweldge from each other can we complete certain tasks.

So even if you think that your question is basic or silly, for gods sake ask it anyway!
There will be others who probably wanted to ask the same question before and didn't for fear of others opinions. But I will bet my bottom dollar there WILL be people who would like to learn the answer to the very same question.

Banjo.

[Norman Bernstein]

I did a tiller like that some years back.... and am working on a new one, even now (ash/mahogany lamination, tapered on two axes, with a bulb handle).

As some others have mentioned, I think it helps tremndously to start out by bandsawing on one plane (axis first), chosing the axis which will leave the other plane flat so that a second bandsaw pass takes care of the other axis.

From that point on, you want to use your favorite tools (drawknife, spokeshave, rasp, etc) to 'eight-side' the blank, so you can maintain proportionality, before doing the final roundevers.

I don't think the spokeshave is all that difficult to use, if you take the time to carefully read the grain.

[pcford]

Spoke shave! That's the "magic" tool ;)

Yep. What the heck is the problem?

[prestonbriggs]

I've done two. The first, I cut from a piece of ash, getting the profile (side view) right with a bandsaw. The aft part, top view, I cut with a plane. The rest I did with a spokeshave, freehand. Went ok.

If I'd have had a large wood lathe, I would have tried shaping it on the lathe, then steam bending it.

The 2nd was laminated and roughed out in top and side views using a bandsaw. Cleaned up with a block plane. The forward part was rounded like a mast, first marking, then cutting, making it 8 sided, then rounding, carving it with a large chisel.

In both case, it seemed like slow handwork, but didn't actually take that long.

Preston

[emichaels]

I did not read all the posts here so I will just throw in my .02 and you can take leave it. I make chairs alot. Probably 200 a year. There are not many straight parts on an elegant chair.

What I do for a compound curve is to cut any joints BEFORE going to the bandsaw. Then bandsaw out one curve, take the cutoff and tape it right back onto the blank where it came off of. Then you have built in support. The turn the piece and cut the other surfaces doing the same thing. If you feel the need to shim out the kerf then use cardboard between the blank and the scrap. This works very well on things like chair legs that flair and curve every which way. The till I would cut the curves in the molded surface first. The draw the taper on the sided faces and hold the pc on the bandsaw and free hand it. Making sure the piece is always in solid contact with the table. Free handing is a lot easier and at the same time more dangerous than it looks.

But most chairs are designed right on the bandsaw freehand. With no lines or anything.

Eric

[Paulyboy]

Nice drawings Dave.

All you need is a hand plane, a spoke shave, some sand paper, a couple of eye balls and some elbow grease. Don't make a major technical problem out of it. Oh, you are also permitted to use a pocket knife in case you want to put some cute little chip carving dodads on the tiller.
Don't forget the scorp and the travisher!

[ToddFwbf]

Hot melt glue works as good as double stick tape and provides a little extra for the lost kerf.