TimScearce
03-19-2004, 08:20 PM
Thank you all for your insights. I posted my original comments because I wasn't really sure if I was on the mark or not. It's right there in the body of the message.
First a little on my perspective:
I have both donated items to the Center for Wooden Boats (CWB) and bought auction items from them for 4-5 years. I have donated catered day sails aboard Kestrel. I have always made sure my quests had a great time as I know how important the work they support is.
Two years ago I won 2 hours of engine repair at the auction. The guy came out, looked over the project with me and then came back and I watched him and passed wrenches as he spent about 6 hours working on the engine and teaching me. It was a great time. He charged me for 4 hours.
I have been restoring this boat from years of neglect since I got her in 1997. The FIRST thing I did for her is buy a boat cover. The eletrical system, electronics, sails and upholstery are new. The engine has been rebuilt. I have personally completely rewired her, her mast has been pulled, stripped and refinished. I have personally sanded and revarnished the entire boat 2-3 times. I have tried to do something each year for her. She is not neglected.
As I said in my initial post, 2-3 months before the interaction discussed in my initial, I went over the boat with an ABYC-certified surveyor. This is the same surveyor I had flown down to Alameda to do an initial survey on the boat before I bought her. We looked all over the boat and he pointed out the issues that needed attention in the cockpit and icebox, etc. He did not feel it was dire and we talked about having me do some initial prep work and then having him come back to the boat to repair those parts that needed it. He felt the work could be done on the boat at the marina. He explicitly did not describe it as the major project that it was later described as. I should mention that this individual also works with the CWB and I have taken boat surveying courses from him.
It was this past experience that I brought to the boat repair issue at hand. Clearly we both had very different expectations of what would happen. The second visit to the boat was not requested by me nor was I ever told it was part of the 2 hours won at the auction. I had budgeted about $8000 (give or take) to do what repairs could be done (a conservative guestimate taken from my prior discussion with the surveyor) and fully expected we would move on from there.
When I got the news about all the work that had to be done, I was taken aback. From my perspective, I was presented with a massive boat rebuilding project or nothing. The information given to me, right or wrong, was not consistent with what I had heard from others so the actual VALUE of that information to me was very limited.
I ask any of you to think about this scenario. You ask a shipwright to look at and consider taking on a cockpit rebuild. Another shipwright has told you the work was relatively straghtforward. The second shipwright comes by and spends two (or more) hours looking at the cockpit and then calls you and volunteers to come back and bring someone else to look it over. He pours over all of the boat and tells you the boat needs a major overhaul. You are not a shipwright but you have heard from others that the project is not that big.
Would most shipwrights consider that time a bid or is that work?
If you had been told by this shipwright that the project would be looked over and then the work would start wouldn't you think it meant this was a bid?
If you had NEVER had a shipwright or any other repair person come on to your boat and charge you for determining what had to be done, wouldn't this episode feel a little funny to you?
I guess the thing to do is to just let it go at that. But I kept thinking about the phone conversation about planning and then starting work with the first two hours as the auction repayment. I also thought about what I would do if a patient came to me with a diagnosis of epilepsy. I might tell him he needed an MRI, and EEG and a new expensive anti-seizure medicine to treat his condition in the proper way. If he told me he couldn't afford to do all that I would try to work around what we could do now with an eye toward doing the rest when possible.
Is it really the case that you cannot pick a part of the work that can be done and work on that?
And Billy Bones, I don't know you and you most certainly do not know me. Yet, you feel you can read a few paragraphs I have written and feel free to make derogitory comments. Maybe the internet will come to be known as the great impersonal destroyer of human decency. My original post was meant to get some perspective on what I thought was unfair. I did not mention names. I did not slander anyone. You, however, feel you can wax philosophic about my neglected boat and a $30 aura reading for fun (that my wife thoroughly enjoyed) and your own personal feelings about professionals like neurosurgeons. That kind of behavior says volumes about you.
And by the way, you obviously read my profile, but you didn't read it very well. I am a neurologist, not a neurosurgeon. What else did you not read very carefully?
Somebody else said auctions are magnets for the free lunch set. That is so sad. As I said, I have both donated and bought items. On the catered day sail, I threw in a bottle of Dom Perignon I had been saving for a special occasion just to make it nice for everyone. They all had a great time and sent me a nice thank you note. At the auction this year one of the items was a bid for nothing. People were encouraged to hold up their signs to raise money for the CWBs kids at risk program. They raised thousands in just a few minutes. Not a free lunch was had by anyone. You should have been there, it was a beautiful thing.
Lastly, Struther Martin said, "What we have here is failure to communicate." It's a line from "Cool Hand Luke", my favorite movie. I even named my Irish Setter "Luke" in honor of the movie
http://www.fototime.com/957DCA28CACB6E5/standard.jpg
Fire away
First a little on my perspective:
I have both donated items to the Center for Wooden Boats (CWB) and bought auction items from them for 4-5 years. I have donated catered day sails aboard Kestrel. I have always made sure my quests had a great time as I know how important the work they support is.
Two years ago I won 2 hours of engine repair at the auction. The guy came out, looked over the project with me and then came back and I watched him and passed wrenches as he spent about 6 hours working on the engine and teaching me. It was a great time. He charged me for 4 hours.
I have been restoring this boat from years of neglect since I got her in 1997. The FIRST thing I did for her is buy a boat cover. The eletrical system, electronics, sails and upholstery are new. The engine has been rebuilt. I have personally completely rewired her, her mast has been pulled, stripped and refinished. I have personally sanded and revarnished the entire boat 2-3 times. I have tried to do something each year for her. She is not neglected.
As I said in my initial post, 2-3 months before the interaction discussed in my initial, I went over the boat with an ABYC-certified surveyor. This is the same surveyor I had flown down to Alameda to do an initial survey on the boat before I bought her. We looked all over the boat and he pointed out the issues that needed attention in the cockpit and icebox, etc. He did not feel it was dire and we talked about having me do some initial prep work and then having him come back to the boat to repair those parts that needed it. He felt the work could be done on the boat at the marina. He explicitly did not describe it as the major project that it was later described as. I should mention that this individual also works with the CWB and I have taken boat surveying courses from him.
It was this past experience that I brought to the boat repair issue at hand. Clearly we both had very different expectations of what would happen. The second visit to the boat was not requested by me nor was I ever told it was part of the 2 hours won at the auction. I had budgeted about $8000 (give or take) to do what repairs could be done (a conservative guestimate taken from my prior discussion with the surveyor) and fully expected we would move on from there.
When I got the news about all the work that had to be done, I was taken aback. From my perspective, I was presented with a massive boat rebuilding project or nothing. The information given to me, right or wrong, was not consistent with what I had heard from others so the actual VALUE of that information to me was very limited.
I ask any of you to think about this scenario. You ask a shipwright to look at and consider taking on a cockpit rebuild. Another shipwright has told you the work was relatively straghtforward. The second shipwright comes by and spends two (or more) hours looking at the cockpit and then calls you and volunteers to come back and bring someone else to look it over. He pours over all of the boat and tells you the boat needs a major overhaul. You are not a shipwright but you have heard from others that the project is not that big.
Would most shipwrights consider that time a bid or is that work?
If you had been told by this shipwright that the project would be looked over and then the work would start wouldn't you think it meant this was a bid?
If you had NEVER had a shipwright or any other repair person come on to your boat and charge you for determining what had to be done, wouldn't this episode feel a little funny to you?
I guess the thing to do is to just let it go at that. But I kept thinking about the phone conversation about planning and then starting work with the first two hours as the auction repayment. I also thought about what I would do if a patient came to me with a diagnosis of epilepsy. I might tell him he needed an MRI, and EEG and a new expensive anti-seizure medicine to treat his condition in the proper way. If he told me he couldn't afford to do all that I would try to work around what we could do now with an eye toward doing the rest when possible.
Is it really the case that you cannot pick a part of the work that can be done and work on that?
And Billy Bones, I don't know you and you most certainly do not know me. Yet, you feel you can read a few paragraphs I have written and feel free to make derogitory comments. Maybe the internet will come to be known as the great impersonal destroyer of human decency. My original post was meant to get some perspective on what I thought was unfair. I did not mention names. I did not slander anyone. You, however, feel you can wax philosophic about my neglected boat and a $30 aura reading for fun (that my wife thoroughly enjoyed) and your own personal feelings about professionals like neurosurgeons. That kind of behavior says volumes about you.
And by the way, you obviously read my profile, but you didn't read it very well. I am a neurologist, not a neurosurgeon. What else did you not read very carefully?
Somebody else said auctions are magnets for the free lunch set. That is so sad. As I said, I have both donated and bought items. On the catered day sail, I threw in a bottle of Dom Perignon I had been saving for a special occasion just to make it nice for everyone. They all had a great time and sent me a nice thank you note. At the auction this year one of the items was a bid for nothing. People were encouraged to hold up their signs to raise money for the CWBs kids at risk program. They raised thousands in just a few minutes. Not a free lunch was had by anyone. You should have been there, it was a beautiful thing.
Lastly, Struther Martin said, "What we have here is failure to communicate." It's a line from "Cool Hand Luke", my favorite movie. I even named my Irish Setter "Luke" in honor of the movie
http://www.fototime.com/957DCA28CACB6E5/standard.jpg
Fire away