Herrshoff dinghy

[arabiansea]

After reading the post on white cedar and canvass, I thought you might want to see this. It is an original cedar on oak dinghy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1926-Herrshoff-built-wood-dinghy-Elco-yacht-tender_W0QQitemZ4599271476QQcategoryZ26434QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[ 12-21-2005, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: arabiansea ]

[Garrett Lowell]

Hmmm, nearby and likely won't go for much. The problem is, in the past someone pulled the canvas and replaced it with fiberglass. Also, the poor thing is likely not a resto project, but a complete rebuild. Interesting, though.

[Garrett Lowell]

I'd like to ask others here with more experience in this kind of thing for their advice. I'm interested, I must say. But is this thing actually salvageable? Looks badly twisted and hogged, and lots of rot. And that's just for starters.

[ishmael]

Looks like a lost cause, from here. Shape gone, sitting god knows where for years, probably on the ground, obviously heavily weathered. You'd be better off building new.

[arabiansea]

Does anyone know of a restored dinghy like this?

From some of the articles in wooden boat magazine, much larger boats in worse condition have rebuilt. The question of when the rebuild is actually a new boat is a fine line. The one (30 foot sailboat) showcased in the Time-Life boating-books series 20 years ago, showed the only surviving timber as a section of the keel backbone and yet it was considered a restoration.

[Bob Smalser]

http://i24.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/cb/01/dd_1.JPG

It sat right there on the ground in rain, snow and sun for years, rotting in place.

Easier to build a new one.

[rbgarr]

That was an Old Town dinghy- search eBay for 'Old Town dinghy' and you'll see an unrestored (perhaps) one maybe from the 30s up for auction in Vassalboro, Maine right now.

See here for prices on reproductions; http://islandfalls.wcha.org/dinghies/dinghies.html

[ 12-21-2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Thad Van Gilder]

isn't that a cedar on cedar dinghy?

if you want to see a new cedar on cedar with canvas something, cabelas in hamburg Pa has a new oldtown style canoe, canvas on cedar on cedar for 3 grand.

-Thad

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by arabiansea:
From some of the articles in wooden boat magazine, much larger boats in worse condition have rebuilt.A key point is that any boat CAN be rebuilt. Heck, if you found the stem of a boat lying on the beach you could build a boat around it! However, whether it makes sense to do this is a very different question. If a certain boat has some particular significance then it may well make sense to undertake a restoration even though it would be easier to replicate the boat using all new materials.

[nedL]

Its just simple wood & canvas canoe construction. Sure its 'restorable', can't tell how much of the original would be left until the job is done, but for something like this it's probably about 90% labor & 10% financial if you did it all yourself. It would be a fun little project, not sure about the Herrshoff connection though. Looks like a standard Old Town.

[ 12-21-2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: nedL ]

[ishmael]

As has been said, you can re-build anything. Though with that wreck you aren't going to have much more than a nameplate when you're done. Those frames are continuous and look at the port side. Planking is likely shot too, from sitting out and under the glass. You're gonna have to build at least a partial jig to get the shape back. Canoe construction has you bending the framing over the jig then clench nailing the planking to the frames. Try and sort that one out.

If the boat was something really special, maybe, but I tend to agree with the Old Town not Herrshoff crowd. So ENGH , do not pass GO, do not collect 200 dollars. smile.gif

P.S. A second look at the pic. Maybe the frames aren't continuous, but my opinion is.

[ 12-21-2005, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Garrett Lowell]

I just emailed the seller requesting proof of the builder's identity. We'll see.....

[arabiansea]

On the other thread about oak & cedar & canvass, there is a posted sales brochure by Old Town.

According to that, Old Town didn't offer a sailing dinghy.

Also on the link provided by rbgar, there isn't a sailing version offered now.

I don't think it is an Old Town. The seller maybe right.

[ 12-21-2005, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: arabiansea ]

[rbgarr]

The seller says that the boat had a 'new' centerboard box put in at one point. I doubt it was a replacement or even had one originally. Boats built with canoe type construction, if they are meant to sail, usually have a leeboard rig.

AFAIK Herreshoff never built boats using canoe type construction anyway. Their small boats of that size, most notably the Columbia class tenders, were lapstrake. See http://www.cannellclassicboats.com/images/cbbtender.jpg for an example, though they were built entirely open as well.

My opinion only ;)

[ 12-21-2005, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Garrett Lowell]

The seller states that there's no builder's plate. He's also not sure if it was originally covered in canvas or not. I pointed out the differences to him between the Herreshoff dinghys and the Old Town dinghys (the transom and planking, most notably).

[nedL]

To further the Old Town thoughts compare the two, one is advertised as Old Town. The knees are all very typical Old Town shape (the same shape was used in a 14' 1954 Old Town I used to have). If it is an Old Town ther ewillbe serial numbers stamped into the lower end of the inside of the stem & also into the stern knee.

http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/bc/52/d3_1.JPG
http://i24.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/cb/01/dd_1.JPG

http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/c2/cf/d3_1.JPG
http://i2.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/cc/92/53_1.JPG

[ 12-22-2005, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: nedL ]

[seo]

Building a form and starting to build canoe-style boats was/is not very complicated. Lots of small shops did it; sort of like splashing a mold off a Dyer Dhow and going into glass production. I'd be amazed if the pictured boat has any Herreshof in it.
One aspect of canvas over wood construction that hasn't been mentioned is that the hull cannot have any reverse curves in it anywhere. No hollow garboards, clipper bow, wineglass transom. The reason being that the canvas wouldn't conform to the reverse curve, or hollow, or whatever you want to call it.
My guess is that this doesn't limit the seaworthiness, strength, or utility of the hull much, but it does have an effect on appearance. Particularly at the stern of a dinghy.
seo

[Garrett Lowell]

It seems the seller is sticking to the Herreshoff theme. I won't be bidding. I'm convinced that, while it may or may not be an Old Town dinghy, it's most certainly not a Herreshoff product.

[Bruce Hooke]

eBay is, in my opinion, becoming a bit of a bad joke because of stuff like this. I've heard so many stories of sellers providing clearly false information and refusing to correct the information even when it has been pointed out to them that are wrong, that I wouldn't trust much of anything I read on eBay at this point unless I can verify it with my own eyes. It's like the old joke about the man who asks if the horse in the field is white, and is told that "it seems to be from this side..."!

[Garrett Lowell]

Bruce, wait until eBay is hit with those Child Pornography charges for their PayPal company.....

[arabiansea]

I emailed the seller and he said the dinghy was restored in the 70's including the centerboard trunk and the transum was replanked over the original cedar with mahogany. Did herrshoff build with a cedar transum?

I did the Ebay search with "Old Town" as suggested above and one of the pictures on the same add that Nedl posted clearly shows that there was never a sailing centerboard trunk in the Old Town.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Old-Town-Dinghy-wood-canvas-boat-not-canoe_W0QQitemZ7205370890QQcategoryZ23800QQtcZpho toQQrd (http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Old-Town-Dinghy-wood-canvas-boat-not-canoe_W0QQitemZ7205370890QQcategoryZ23800QQtcZphot oQQrd) Z1QQcmdZViewItem

You'll notice that the transum on the Old Town is a very thick single piece of wood.

[ 12-22-2005, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: arabiansea ]

[seo]

Honestly, it doesn't matter what Herreshoff did or didn't plank transoms with; that boat's not a Herreshoff.
Transoms are generally not built of cedar because it has to hold the plank fastenings in tension against the spring of the planks. A firmer wood is better for that. Mahogany or oak. Also, it's the piece of wood that logically can be varnished and made pretty. Mahogany's good for that.
seo

[Lew Barrett]

It's also a total loss. It would be a favor to haul it away for free.
Listen to Bob....... smile.gif

[QUOTE]Originally posted by seo:
[QB]Honestly, it doesn't matter what Herreshoff did or didn't plank transoms with; that boat's not a Herreshoff.

[ 12-22-2005, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Lew Barrett ]

[jimendel]

I'm not an expert on watercraft like most of you gentlemen, but I do know a bit about antique cars. A car in this condition would be considered VERY rough, and not restorable unless the value when completed would compensate for the restoration costs.
In other words, unless there is documentation that it was owned by a president or a celebrity, it should not be considered for purchase. smile.gif

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Make a bonfire on the beach and dance around it naked. That would be the most fun you could have with that thing.

[nedL]

As I said, canoe construction is pretty easy to rebuilld. On this dinghy it looks like the shape on the starboard side is ok & that would be used to recreate the shape for the port side. - the boat would certainly have to be 'free' or close to it though.
Here are some pics of what is done with this type of construction

http://skywoodscanoes.com/tips/FLORINBROKE2crop.jpg


Car @ 35 MPH

http://skywoodscanoes.com/tips/FLORINBROKE1crop.jpg

http://skywoodscanoes.com/tips/FLORINFIXquick.jpg

http://www.wooden-canoes.com/images/filler/repairs.jpg
Another one that is ready to put back together.

[ 12-23-2005, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: nedL ]

[Dan Miller]

According to that, Old Town didn't offer a sailing dinghy. Of course they did. First offered in the 1930 catalog and continued clear through 1966. More recently Jerry Stelmock has built a few on the Old Town molds. They do have a centerboard trunk; the otherwise continuous ribs are simply fastened to the keelson either side of the trunk.


One aspect of canvas over wood construction that hasn't been mentioned is that the hull cannot have any reverse curves in it anywhere. Many canvas covered canoes have fine, hollow entries, and we can indeed stretch the canvas tightly to the hull in these reverse curves.

I would start looking at Old Town for the dinghy in question in this thread. If it is an Old Town, there will be a serial number stamped on the inboard upper face of the stem (it is buried under the mast step on sailing versions). If this could be found, it wold be proof positive. Given the condition, it may no longer be readable.

Regards,
Dan Miller
Dragonfly Canoe Works

[seo]

If fabric can be stretched to conform to a shape, then at least one line must be either straight or convex. If a shape is in concave in three dinemsions, then you can't stretch a fabric to conform to it.
My guess is that your canoe entries are hollow longitudinally, but not along some line from stem to gunwale. So you can stretch along that line and the cloth will draw up tight. But without nailing the cloth out on the hull, how would you do that along a hollow garboard or in the tuck of a counter stern?
Once again, I think that perfectly good hull shapes can be built with flat surfaces and convex shapes. The efficiency of very complicated shapes seems more esthetic than functional...
seo

[Adamant]

I squirled one of those boats in my basement years ago where it is now. I didn't know it was an Old Town. Thanks

[rbgarr]

The guy auctioning this dinghy is contacting all bidders to tell them it's an Old Town. EBay apparently doesn't allow for editing an auction's name, so it look like he's doing the next best thing.