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Hughman
06-24-2008, 03:40 PM
...for fit. I've been making a nuisance of myself going around area gun purveyors trying on shotguns

I'm so long out of practice, 30 years out of practice, that I'm a newbie. I don't even know the vocabulary.

One seller says, "when you find it, you will know". So, that's what I have been searching for, ...."it"

I've tried Remington 870's, Mossburg 500's, 535's, Winchester 1200,'s 1400's, a Browning or two, and a gaggle of Chinese units. (I have a prejudice against Chinese tools, "guilty")

last week, I tried a Winchester 12. I think this is it. This gun said "just hold me", (Where have I heard that before?) These haven't been made since gas was .29 cents. I'm not even sure they're safe anymore.

Now, the price is a tad out of step with my pocket. But, it's good to know what it is one wants, even if it's not gonna happen.

and, my apologies for yet another gun thread, if this bothers you, stop now. :D;):p

paladin
06-24-2008, 03:44 PM
You could check out the Beretta's......a model 426 in used condition.....dunno the price...but just a replacement barrel set is over 2K......puts a wedgie in your shorts...

BrianW
06-24-2008, 03:51 PM
I might be mistaken, but the Winchester Model 12 was the shotgun favored by Peter Capstick, the African safari book author. In his stories (there is a consensus that most of his hunts took place in the pub) about leopard hunting he swore by the Model 12 due to the fact you could hold the trigger back after the first shot, and after that it would fire simply by racking the slide.

gary porter
06-24-2008, 04:27 PM
Some of the old JC Higgins , sold by Sears, would do the same thing.
They claimed they were faster than an automatic.
Gary

Bob Smalser
06-24-2008, 04:28 PM
last week, I tried a Winchester 12. I think this is it. This gun said "just hold me", (Where have I heard that before?) These haven't been made since gas was .29 cents. I'm not even sure they're safe anymore.



http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/322629552.jpg

I'm not surprised you like the Model 12, as it's one of the best-handling classics ever made. It's also one of the real walnut and forged, milled steel guns that'll never lose its value, unlike today's plastic junk. As millions were made, they are relatively common as are repair parts. Later M12's had a trigger disconnect to prevent the slamfires the originals were noted for. I've owned and competed with several of them....but Winchester actually made a better gun that is little known today.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/322630092.jpg

The Super X Model 1 was only made for a short time as the gas gun companion to the Model 12. Construction, weight, balance and quality are identical except the SX-1 kicks less which is a boon for competition shooters (and to you, too as it'll improve your wingshooting). One of wingshooting's best kept secrets.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/25023379.jpg

Bring me one of these (or a Remington 1100) and I can convert the stock to one that with some coaching, will fit you perfectly and allow you to shoot your very best.

These oldies are best bought nationally. Start studying Gunbroker.com, Auctionarms.com and Gunsamerica.com to gage prices and eventually pick out the one you want. Those sites also list FFL dealers who'll handle the transfer for you. Your local pawn shops may have some M12's and are worth a call. You should be able to find a nice Field Grade M12 for under 300 dollars and a FG SX-1 for 450 and up.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/322631304.jpg

ishmael
06-24-2008, 05:27 PM
When I was waiting for my car I picked up an "Outdoor Life" or a "Sports Afield" or some such. They had a lengthy article, their main article, about rifles and shotguns. I'm not much into it, but they seemed pretty smart on how to choose. You might want to have a gander at that article, I think it was published in the last year. Good google moogly I was impressed by the craftsmanship. Fine actions, and spectacular stocks.

They ain't cheap! I think a Remington 700 was around half a grand, and the Italian shot guns skyrocketed from there.

Maybe it's like fitting a shoe? Find someone who really knows and has some you can try on.

Mrleft8
06-24-2008, 05:43 PM
I'm partial to an Ithica side by side goose gun with a full choke on the left, and a 3/4 on the right..... But that's just me.

Phillip Allen
06-24-2008, 05:47 PM
my favorite shotgun of all time (for me) was an Ithica 200SE with 26 inch bbls improve cylinder/modified fixed...taught my daughter how to throw a baseball with one...350 rounds of hand thrown skeet in one afternoon...she threw all the birds with an old stick thrower throwing doubles mostly...she trots out the story every now and then

paladin
06-24-2008, 06:49 PM
Brian, The old Winchester 97's would do that without holding the trigger.....

Captain Blight
06-24-2008, 07:12 PM
I am a fan of the Old 97's.

cathouse willy
06-24-2008, 08:33 PM
The 97's are a mainstay of cowboy action shooting, they're period correct and somewhat faster than a double.I myself prefer a double 12 ga mule eared coachgun Not much good for bird shooting but excellent for cowboy action knockdowns.Yee Haw!!

Phillip Allen
06-24-2008, 08:50 PM
in the days of my youth I could toss a steel coke can high and hit it seven times with my old trench gun ('97 Win). And yes one could shoot much faster than with an auto loader

Bob Smalser
06-24-2008, 09:00 PM
If you like the Model 12, you may not like the Model 97, as there have been two major factory iterations of stock dimensions, and 97's are more likely to have the older flavor....ie lots of drop at the heel and a comb that hits your cheek. Plus the older ones are of the older, softer steels that wear quickly in hard use.

Besides, the Cowboy Action crowd have taken so many good 97's they've driven the price up too high. If you really want one you might be better off with a Chinese clone than the worn-out dregs of what's left on the market.

If you like hammer guns, the later Marlins like these Model 42's are just as strong and well made at a fraction of the price of an original 97. They also can be a bit faster than a 97 as the magazine loads in any stage of battery.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/303084639.jpg

cathouse willy
06-24-2008, 09:16 PM
Cowboy action shooting has ignited an interest in the western shooting vernue Its a sport that has literally " taken off" we have created a demand for certain guns but only to the betterement of shooting sports

Phillip Allen
06-24-2008, 09:17 PM
Oh yeah...don't forget to wear a chain mail glove on your shootin hand

cathouse willy
06-24-2008, 09:26 PM
Chain mail gloves aside...lite loads and small shot. knockdowns are easy.97 friendly and coach gun as well.

emichaels
06-24-2008, 09:35 PM
Hughman and others,
I have a Winchester Supreme Field O/U that just turns the crank whenever I pick her up. It is, for me, balanced just right and is a pure joy to shoot. She's not old, or very fancy, except for some scroll work in the metal, otherwise just some walnut and steel. Wish I had a son to hand it down to someday. But alas it will eventually probably end up in a strangers hands sometime ages hence, when I am done with her.

Eric

Peter Kalshoven
06-24-2008, 10:51 PM
Bob, I've got a 20+ year old left handed 870 12 guage (with those beautiful checkered stocks with Fluer de Lis) that is good in everyway except one. The stock is just too short for me to be truly comfortable with it. Never had much problem with it on pheasant, which tend to be going away from you. Lately I've tried sporting clays, and I have a heck of a time with passing shots. Is there an easy way to lengthen the pull length?
I would hate to change the stock completely, but I've never liked the slip on butt pads. I don't think they would lengthen it enough, and they don't look very good.
Suggestions?

Bob Smalser
06-24-2008, 11:26 PM
Lately I've tried sporting clays, and I have a heck of a time with passing shots. Is there an easy way to lengthen the pull length?



Like much of life, follow the money to find what wins, and even today the big money game remains old-fashioned American Trap. ;)

Your shooting eye is your rear sight. The problem with a short stock on a clays course as opposed to mostly away shots in hunting or trap is that your head changes position with each type of shot. Put a piece of masking tape on the comb, change positions and notice the change in where the tape brushes your cheek. You want a stock adjusted so the tape hits your cheek in the same spot regardless of where or how you point the gun.

http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/352110000.jpg

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/catsearch.aspx?k=gracoil&ps=10&si=True

Even for a hunting gun, I'd mount a trapshooter's Gracoil on it in a heartbeat. Adds 1" to your LOP so you may or may not have to cut your stock if it's already short, and they also make one with an adjustable LOP if you shoot both with and without heavy clothes.

http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/352100425.jpg

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=6722&title=ADJUSTABLE%20COMB%20HARDWARE

The standard Gracoil adjusts for both heel drop and cant. If you also add an adjustable comb you can also adjust comb drop and cast. Adding some cast alone can be a huge improvement for someone who has only shot factory stocks. Darkening a room and mounting the gun pointed at a fixed mark will get you a starting point, and the rest is practice and fine tuning. I used to bend stocks but stopped once I figured out your ideal stock dimensions are as much a factor of training as body build. They change slightly with experience, and your stock needs to change with it.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/306673587.jpg

In a gas gun they also make shooting 1 1/8oz loads like shooting a .22. A 200-round day leaves you fresh as a daisy for the shootout. And neither is difficult to install.

Peter Kalshoven
06-26-2008, 03:43 PM
Ya just gotta love the level of expertise on this forum. Thanks, Bob. I now have a starting point.

Chris Coose
06-26-2008, 04:10 PM
Hugh, Why now?
Hey BTW, when you coming to S. Bristol with the crew to visit?

Tylerdurden
06-26-2008, 04:16 PM
Hugh, Why now?


Why not now? I was going to invite him to the "compound" for urban practice.:D

b_tampa
11-09-2008, 06:12 AM
Bob is so right about that Super X Model 1. If you can find one of those, and it feels like it fits you, don't pass it up. In addition to the qualities he mentions, it's probably as reliable as an autoloader can get.

I heard, some time ago, that they quit making it because the manufacturing process was too costly for the price point of the gun. Whether that's true or not, I can't say. What I can say is that it was a lot of gun for the money.

Good luck.

Nicholas Scheuer
11-09-2008, 08:24 AM
I've had only one real experience with shotguns, and it invilved a Wionchester Model-12 and a Beretta over & under.

A friend who did a lot of hunting, and owned a kennell full of Brittanys, long told me that he wanted to "take (me) shooting sometime". He finally did take me out to a new rudimentary skeet range for an evening of shooting.

My friend lent me his Berretta, but I couldn't hit anything with it. The range owner finally asked that I aim a little higher, because his son was in the shack downrange launching the skeets and most of my shots were slamming the shack.

Finally the owner gave me an old Model-12 to try. I did much better with the old pump.

Once in awhile I think about getting one, but good ones are expensive now.

Moby Nick

Tylerdurden
11-09-2008, 08:30 AM
I have to say reconsider the 500 or 870. Having a reliable tool with plenty of spare parts and aftermarket accessories available is a strong suit. An off the shelf stock could make all the difference. Rare and hard to find guns are great to shoot occasionally and collect but useless if one cannot repair it readily.

James McMullen
11-09-2008, 11:01 AM
I choose a Remington 870. . . . .good enough to do the job, but cheap enough that if I accidently drop it overboard while struggling through the bog I won't be out more'n a couple hundred bucks. I guess I'm really not a gun nut. . . .or even all that much of a duck hunter, really. I just like trudging through the mud in the freezing rain before dawn in leaky boots. . . .and if you're carrying a gun over your shoulder, people don't question you about it.

Hughman
11-09-2008, 11:09 AM
I just like trudging through the mud in the freezing rain before dawn in leaky boots. . . .and if you're carrying a gun over your shoulder, people don't question you about it.

<laughing> And a fishing pole gives legitimacy to a nap...

Hughman
11-09-2008, 11:12 AM
Hugh, Why now?
Hey BTW, when you coming to S. Bristol with the crew to visit?

Chris! Jeez, just read this invite, :o:o Wish I'd seen it sooner! As is happened, I didn't get in much time sailing this season. I'll do betta next year, if I live through the winter...

Phillip Allen
11-09-2008, 11:15 AM
<laughing> And a fishing pole gives legitimacy to a nap...

I DO like the way this thread is drifting :)

Hughman
11-09-2008, 11:24 AM
Your shooting eye is your rear sight. The problem with a short stock on a clays course as opposed to mostly away shots in hunting or trap is that your head changes position with each type of shot. Put a piece of masking tape on the comb, change positions and notice the change in where the tape brushes your cheek. You want a stock adjusted so the tape hits your cheek in the same spot regardless of where or how you point the gun.


Thanks, Bob

I'll do some experimenting. I don't know a qualified instructor locally, I'm learning how to invent the wheel here, and tips like this will be helpful .

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-09-2008, 11:46 AM
Try an old "Parker" shotgun if ya can find one.
Grandpa passed me one and I love it.


http://www.collectorebooks.com/gregg01/shotgun2/DSC00048.jpg

sv Lorelei
11-09-2008, 02:52 PM
Nice!

My Dad passed me his Stevens 5100 (precursor to the 311) double barrel 12 gauge. Despite the fact that the triggers are set up LH once I got used to it, it's a nice piece. The tenite stock has always been a bit wonky as far as balance goes and I've been threatening to find a nice walnut stock and forearm for it, but it's put a lot of food on the table over the years. One barrel full choke and one modified. Good fowling piece but you can sling punkins single shot at the deer with it too through the full choke side.

I went shooting trap with it a few times several years ago and everyone would chuckle when I pulled it out, and then shut up as the targets blew up. Only drawback is that if you get overzealous you can pull off both barrels at the same time. It really gets your attention and becomes high on your list of things you don't want to do more than once.

Paul Pless
11-09-2008, 02:56 PM
I guess I'm really not a gun nut. . . .or even all that much of a duck hunter, really. I just like trudging through the mud in the freezing rain before dawn in leaky boots. . . .and if you're carrying a gun over your shoulder, people don't question you about it.That's a gem!:D:D

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-09-2008, 03:08 PM
Only drawback is that if you get overzealous you can pull off both barrels at the same time. It really gets your attention and becomes high on your list of things you don't want to do more than once.


I was warned by my Dad and still manged to do it once.

Bill Lowe
11-09-2008, 06:02 PM
Anyone have a comment on a Winchester 12 ga.model 1400 semi automatic? I need a barrel and was thinking about the Winchoke system

paladin
11-10-2008, 05:18 AM
Ya could always build a shotgun.....years and years ago a gunsmith friend and I took apart a Bren or sten gun...the one like a bicycle pump....and he made the parts.....we made a semi auti 20 ga. magazine fed shotgun......and could have very easily made it full auto.....I was thinking deck sweeper at the time.....