Boat Shop (Large Garage and Shop)

[Tom Hoffman]

Good afternoon.

My subject is only slightly off topic.

I am going to build my self a new Garage/Shop/Boat Shop.

38'X48' I will be using pole barn constuction methods.

My problem arrises with the clear span roof trusses. I can't order them commercially made as there is no way to get them back into the location where the shop is going to be. Narrow gravel drives, many small houses close to road, many sharp turns.

My solution is to manfacture on site, the roof trusses.

How to make a good strong truss (4/12 pitch) to span 38' out of 2X4 stock. I have all the tools, just have never built anything like this.

Any help would be appreciated.

Is there any book that I can get that will have the information in it?

Thanks for your forebearance and thanks for any help.

Tom....:D:D:D

[J P]

I suggest retaining a local structural engineer.

[Clinton B Chase]

I would second JP on that. Have it designed for you then build to some sort of plans. Steven Bauer maye have thoughts....

Clint

[RodB]

Heres two trusses [not 2 X 4's] ( from the shop of Bob Albers) that can lift about 12,000 lbs each (I think that is correct) with chain hoists attached via straps... hope this helps....Bob is a mechanical engineer...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/Prestoboat/susantrusses4.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/Prestoboat/susanturnovertrusses3.jpg

RodB

[J P]

Ah yes, timber frame it! ... alas, Tom spec'd 2x's, 4:12.

RodB, Always enjoy looking at that shop ... and that boat, oof. Nice pics.

[edit to add] Our current leased shop has 60 ft. 4:12 clear span site built trusses. They have double 2x? top and bottom chords sandwiching 6x (or 4x?) web members, bolt together construction. They are 10ft O.C. with 2x purlins between, metal roof attached directly to purlins. This approach might be more efficient labor-wise than assembling stick trusses to go 2ft O.C. I'll try round up a picture if you're interested Tom.

I've notice some of the pole barn builders around here use engineered header type stick trusses 10ft O.C. and purlins between.

Rent a helocopter?

[Tom Hoffman]

JP, Yes, any pictures would be very helpful.

[RodB]

J.P.

Those are 2 X 10'x or 12's bolted together... couldn't this be sized down and the geometry be changed to meet the spread?

RB

[alkorn]

North Dakota State University has an archive of building plans from the USDA and various state departments of agriculture at
http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/abeng/plans/index.htm

It's really a pretty amazing collection - barns, stables, garages, workshops, even fallout shelters. Somewhere in there you can probably find a truss that will fit your needs. Maybe even plans for a complete building.

[Ethan]

RodB,
What's the span on those trusses? any more detailed pics/drawings, etc? Drawings of those with sufficient detail to build from would be money in the bank - no doubt I'd make use of them at some point!

Thanks, Ethan

[RodB]

I can ask Bob the dimensions and let you know... I know this was his final boat building shop and he wanted the trusses to be strong for whatever size of boat he decided to build...
I think the width at the bottom is about 22-25 feet, but I am not sure.

RodB

[BBSebens]

Im under the impression that Iowa can get some pretty crazy snow levels. Getting an engineer is the minimum.
Try going to a truss builder. they would probably love to send a guy out to have a look at your project. and maybe he will be able to make some suggestions, perhaps he will say,"oh yeah, we did this before. all we have to do is...."

Get a licensed professional to look at and approve your project.

[botebum]

Have them commercially built and drop-shipped to your local lumber yard. Then have them delivered via straight truck by them. Never had a problem doing this. Costs some but explore all your options.

Doug

[S B]

The local library should have a book on engineering standards,usually easy to follow, for wood frame construction.

[Roger Cumming]

If you can get the lumber into your site you can get the trusses in. But if you want to do it yourself get an engineer to design it. There are a lot of variables that must be taken into account besides the span, such as snow load, wind load, any lifting loads you may want to impose on the trusses, and stability considerations of the trusses, the roof and the building as a whole. If you google "WTCA", an industry group representing the wood truss industry, you will find much useful information. Also, www.sbcindustry.com (structural building components industry). However, you will notice that the roles of truss builder and designer (i.e., engineer) are very, very carefully defined. To an engineer familiar with the building code in effect in your area, and your particular requirements, this would be an easy assignment. I can assure you the trusses would be far lighter and more efficient than those shown in the photographs above.

[Tom Hoffman]

There are no codes or building inspectors where this building is going to go. I want to make a building that would pass code. Normally pole buildings are made here with trusses 4-6' OC and purlins are then strung across the top. 2' OC. I will roof with standing ridge steel, just like the standard agricultural pole buildings are done.

Long lumber 16' or more will barely make it around the curves and down into and up out of the stream bed we have to drive through to get to this place.

I want to stick it. Just need some pictures of stick made trusses that I can copy and make work.

Thanks all...

[Ethan]

RodB, Thanks, that would be greatly appreciated!!

[Mark Van]

If you can't get trusses there, how do you plan on getting boats in and out of the shop?

[AndreasJordahlRhude]

How 'bout some bowstring trusses!

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/ThompsonBoat/BowstringTruss.jpg

[AndreasJordahlRhude]

or maybe some three-hinged arches. yup, that's me back in 1981 - riding shotgun with this over height load of arches for a church in the Milwaukee, WI area.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/ThompsonBoat/ArchLoad.jpg

[AndreasJordahlRhude]

pitched-and-tapered curved beams are a great framing solution. These are probably about 28 ft. span and 8 ft. on centers

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/ThompsonBoat/LumParkBrainerd.jpg

[Raka025]

My garage is 30 x 48 and they used 2 x 6's in the trusses. It's an attic truss which leaves a 6' headroom and 10' wide. They are 2' on center.

I'd suggest going to the truss guys and get a price for what you want and look at the geometry or specs they use to get an idea if you can build them out of 2 x 4's?

Do you have a way to lift them? Crane?

[Mrleft8]

A 4 pitch seems awful flat for that span.... I think I'd be tempted to go up to an 8 pitch, gusset the ridge with plywood on both sides, and use turnbuckle collar ties.

[J P]

Here's our 60ft span, 10ft O.C. shop trusses.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/m_IMGP1892.jpg

Bottom chords are (2) 2x10's with 2 splices, top chords are (2) 2x12's with 1 splice, web members are 4x6 with the 6" between the chords, purlins are 2x6. I think this is a double Fink truss design or some variation. Can't see it in this pic, but the last diagonal member at the heel extends down through the bottom chords and ties into a 6x wall post about 6ft below the truss, creating a sort of knee brace. The walls are 14ft tall on a 2ft conc. stem wall

I have no idea if these trusses were engineered or who built them 30+ years ago. I've used the building for the last 22yrs and they've done the job. (96-97 was a pretty big snow year here.) There's nothing special about the workmanship, if anything it's a little shoddy. If designing these for the same location today, we would use 38psf design snow load, 90mph wind, exposure C. I have a schematic drawing somewhere that I was going to have an engineer friend analyse.

As others mentioned, I would talk to the truss guys (and/or an engineer). There is probably a way they could design a truss that could be delivered in 2 or 3? sections and spliced together on site. Around here I can hardly buy the lumber alone for what the truss companies can deliver a full roof package.

[J P]

Those are 2 X 10'x or 12's bolted together ...

Ah, I see that now. I guess there's something to be said for ripping up trees into little sticks and then attaching them back together to make bigger sticks. ;)


... couldn't this be sized down and the geometry be changed to meet the spread?

ref. post #2

[Yeadon]

North Dakota State University has an archive of building plans from the USDA and various state departments of agriculture at
http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/abeng/plans/index.htm

It's really a pretty amazing collection - barns, stables, garages, workshops, even fallout shelters. Somewhere in there you can probably find a truss that will fit your needs. Maybe even plans for a complete building.

Great tip. It's like a tour through the American history of garages and sheds.

[Eric D]

as mentioned, get someone who is a professional to look at this.

You will not be covered on your insurance if you do not have a certificate stating the load capacity of the truss, not to mention failing any inspection.

I understand you can assume the risk yourself, but why bother.

I just did something similar up further north of you and called the truss company in town (stayed away from the big box places etc) and had them engineer my trusses for 8' o.c. with purlins 18' long to span 3 trusses. They were actually 1/2 the cost of other quotes I had.

I hear your comments on delivery....ask them to spec out for on site built, they may balk though stating they can not assure the quality of the wood you will use and the lack of a press for the plates. But my guys talked me out of the home built deals since they could beat the price prebuilt and delievered.

[dmg]

Tom

Shouldn't be too hard to find a plan/drawing for trusses with plywood gussets. They were built that way around here for quite a while. In fact, on my own shop, I had to build another one because the bugs ate the bottom one when it was still banded up and laying in the front yard. I would think a 60 lb live load may do the job, but as mentioned by others, more pitch would be better to shed some snow load, and work in the attic area for insulation and electrical.

On mine, 3/4 cdx gussets, 8d coated nails/waterproof construction adhesive. Mine were 40' span, all 2 x 4's ( original bunk was from Lowes ). Was also inspected and OK'd at rough in.

If you have no luck, contact me, and I'll check with my best customer ( architect/designer) for a cad drawing, maybe can get certified copy.

Dave

P.S.-Sell the Whitehall yet ?

[Captain Blight]

Is there any book that I can get that will have the information in it?

Thanks for your forebearance and thanks for any help.

the 4-volume Audel's Builder's Companion set from Lee Valley.

Look, what you are proposing to do is not all that hard. You do need to know what you are doing but if you're planning to build a boat, I reckon you're handy enough to site-build trusses.

the other option I would look at is to see if you can hire an Amish building crew. this is the sort of thing that might be right up their alley.

[Ethan]

pitched-and-tapered curved beams are a great framing solution. These are probably about 28 ft. span and 8 ft. on centers

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/ThompsonBoat/LumParkBrainerd.jpg

You see these trusses a lot along the Gulf coast. I've always wondered if you could build them yourself - they appear to be scarfed 2x sticks laminated on the flat. Anyone have any deeper insight into their construction?

[Eric D]

by the way, looking at that site listed above, this pdf does look to fit your bill pretty good or others listed might

http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/abeng/plans/5658.pdf

I know how it goes sometimes, you might just half to look the other way and it sounds like trucking is a pain, just trying to help you in the other post I had, but also want to be a realist.

[BBSebens]

Those beams are, to my knowledge, called Glu-Lams. This may be a product name used by a particular maker, but thats the only things Ive known them to be called. They are in fact 2x6's glued together on the flat. They also make them in x4 and x8 and anything else your willing to pay for.

They are typically just butt jointed with in the beam, having a similar construction method to plywood. lots of glue, heat, and pressure. If you can laminate a stem or keel, you could make a beam. But i wouldn't build a roof that way. Large lumber yards may stock them in common sizes, but most of the time they are a custom order item from the mill.

The trusses needed for this project are beyond 2x4 build. your gonna need some 2x6, maybe even 2x8's for the top chord.


but i have to agree with the gentleman above: If you can barely get 16' lumber in, how do you get a boat out? i guess its only going to be 16' long then, but then why the big shop?

[Tom Hoffman]

I guess all you non agricultural east coast people have never seen a real pole building. Here in Iowa they are the standard that has replaced the old wood barns of the past. Normally 4X6" posts 4' in the ground with a concrete base poured and let set before the post is inserted. Did some research today at the local lumber yard where they sell dozens of the buildings every year to farmers.

Normal OC spacing for post is 8' oc, roof trusses are also 8' oc and the then they are all connected by horizontal purlins. Either 2X4 or 2X6 and the roof purlins are 2X4 on edge and then the steel roof sheeting and walls are nailed directly to the purlins.

I just ordered this book this morning. It shows all the steps including framing your own trusses.

http://www.easybuildings.com/

[Tom Hoffman]

Just a note,

I meant no put down by the above statement. Just a jest. It goes for all you other non agricultural people too, no matter where you hale from.

The 38' is not the problem, it is very normal for these kind of buildings.

As for getting the boats out. Why the river of course. Our new residence that my wife and I are retireing to is on the Wapsi-Pinicon River just a few miles north of Independence Iowa.

We are at the bitter end of a very remote track and are only 100 or so feet from the river.

See the pics.

http://community.webshots.com/user/slvrgost

[AndreasJordahlRhude]

Ethan,

Those are structural glued laminated timber members - pitched and tapered curved beams - in the particular photo. They are 5 1/8" wide (sided) made from nominal 2" x 6" Southern Pine lumber. The boards are finger jointed to make full length laminations. So if we have a beam that is 130 ft. long, we make 132 ft. long boards. There are NO butt joints. These long laminations are then surfaced smooth and faced glued to the appropriate depth (molded dimension). Resorcinol or phenol resorcinol adhesive is typical. These are factory manufactured to precise designs and engineering tolerances. No one should attempt to make 'em in their back yard or basement.

Many lumber species are utilized. Many shapes and sizes are possible. I sold beams for a project that are 10 3/4" x 92 1/2" x 116 ft. long - each weighing 30,000 pounds. 16 inch square members x 106 ft. long were shipped to Old Ironsides in Boston for the lower portion of the main mast a few years ago. I could tell you a fun story about the shipment - I was the escort!

The structural glued laminated timber industry started in 1934 in North America at Peshtigo, Wisconsin. This operation still makes the product today. The technology originated in Germany in the late 19th century.

www.sentinelstructures.com (http://www.sentinelstructures.com) and www.aitc-glulam.org (http://www.aitc-glulam.org) are two good sources of informaiton. There are about 20 manufacturers in USA and five or so in Canada.

Andreas

[AndreasJordahlRhude]

here's a shot in the factory with my hard hat sitting atop the billet. that chunk is 28 1/2" x 61 7/8" x 107 ft. long. weighs 34,054 pounds. it is Southern Pine lumber bonded with resorcinol adhesive. finger joints to get the full length laminations. NO butt joints. edge glued side to side. it is shown prior to surfacing!

You can see the double beams which are the travelling crane beams just above my hard hat. there are four sets of these in the finishing room. they are glued laminated timber beams which were installed there in 1940!

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/ThompsonBoat/UtilityPole.jpg

Andreas

[Ethan]

Andreas,
Thanks very much for the posts! That looks to be a very interesting process.

Can ya swing me a WBF discount?;)

[Eric D]

I guess all you non agricultural east coast people have never seen a real pole building. Here in Iowa they are the standard that has replaced the old wood barns of the past. Normally 4X6" posts 4' in the ground with a concrete base poured and let set before the post is inserted. Did some research today at the local lumber yard where they sell dozens of the buildings every year to farmers.

Normal OC spacing for post is 8' oc, roof trusses are also 8' oc and the then they are all connected by horizontal purlins. Either 2X4 or 2X6 and the roof purlins are 2X4 on edge and then the steel roof sheeting and walls are nailed directly to the purlins.

I just ordered this book this morning. It shows all the steps including framing your own trusses.

http://www.easybuildings.com/


Tom, tell yah what.

I do know, I have built 4 of them now. Smallest only 24-40, biggest was 40-80'. All clear span.

Just did this same construction on my own cottage.

Point was you asked for help with some very direct questions, people answered, and then you snub them and say you have all the answers already. So I will wish you well and be on my way.

One note, nails are what the big companies do for speed, talk with the installers. However, when they do their own homes they use screws with the neoprene washers, ESPECIALLY on the roof.

My buddy Andrew has been doing these for 15 years, he agrees with the above statement.

good luck, enjoy retirement.



Andres, those are neat looking beams/billet. That plant is pretty cool. I got to tour that a while back. They have a HUGE planner there that Bob Smalser has posted in the past (I think it is the same one, or one similar)

thanks.

[ChrisBen]

Just a note,

I meant no put down by the above statement. Just a jest. It goes for all you other non agricultural people too, no matter where you hale from.

The 38' is not the problem, it is very normal for these kind of buildings.

As for getting the boats out. Why the river of course. Our new residence that my wife and I are retireing to is on the Wapsi-Pinicon River just a few miles north of Independence Iowa.

We are at the bitter end of a very remote track and are only 100 or so feet from the river.

See the pics.

http://community.webshots.com/user/slvrgostIf you can get the boats out by water, seems to me you could get the trusses in the same way. ;)

[Tom Hoffman]

No snub was intended. My original questions were about stick building on site clear span trusses. As time progressed and answers came in all seemed to be aimed at getting a structural engineer involved.

I already knew what pole buildings were all about. My problem was getting the darn trusses in, (by the way my boats are little boats, the river is a small river. No way could the trusses be floated up or down stream because of stream depth, dams and bridges.)

I just happened to find the book I linked to show what I had found not as any put down.

Please I meant no offense. I love the give and take here on the forum and all the helpful advice.

L.Boyle, See the pix of the river

http://family.webshots.com/album/563679632PtKYUvin

the link to my pix above.

The river was still 5' below the house back in 1993, the worst high water mark for the Wapsi-Pinicon River in recorded history. Should be safe till the next big 500 year flood comes along. Oh'well, that is the price you pay to play along the water in the mid west.

[Ethan]

Tom, tell yah what.

I do know, I have built 4 of them now. Smallest only 24-40, biggest was 40-80'. All clear span.

Just did this same construction on my own cottage.

Point was you asked for help with some very direct questions, people answered, and then you snub them and say you have all the answers already. So I will wish you well and be on my way.

One note, nails are what the big companies do for speed, talk with the installers. However, when they do their own homes they use screws with the neoprene washers, ESPECIALLY on the roof.

My buddy Andrew has been doing these for 15 years, he agrees with the above statement.

good luck, enjoy retirement.



Andres, those are neat looking beams/billet. That plant is pretty cool. I got to tour that a while back. They have a HUGE planner there that Bob Smalser has posted in the past (I think it is the same one, or one similar)

thanks.

Eric, I think Tom's tracking with you here. And, as a constantly curious observer of other people's pole buildings, I agree with you 100% - there are lots of ways to skin this cat and as if often the case there's the quick way and the better way (e.g., nails vs. screws with gaskets).

Personally, I've found it difficult to find a structural engineer willing to get involved with small projects. Business for those folks is good enough that they don't need to bother with the small fish, I guess.

Great thread! Look forward to hearing more.

[Ethan]

I guess all you non agricultural east coast people have never seen a real pole building. Here in Iowa they are the standard that has replaced the old wood barns of the past. Normally 4X6" posts 4' in the ground with a concrete base poured and let set before the post is inserted. Did some research today at the local lumber yard where they sell dozens of the buildings every year to farmers.

Normal OC spacing for post is 8' oc, roof trusses are also 8' oc and the then they are all connected by horizontal purlins. Either 2X4 or 2X6 and the roof purlins are 2X4 on edge and then the steel roof sheeting and walls are nailed directly to the purlins.

I just ordered this book this morning. It shows all the steps including framing your own trusses.

http://www.easybuildings.com/

Tom, please follow up on this thread when you get the book. I've come across that guy's website a few time in my internet wanderings and would be interested to hear what you think of his book. Always looking to expand the library with good material, ya know?

[dmg]

Tom

I just Googled "roof trusses", "how to build". Sorry I'm clueless on copying links, but, the one that takes care of your question, I think, starts out as www.iastate (http://www.iastate). They have free downloadable drawings/cut sizes for many wood trusses w/plywood gussets, including, specifically 38'.

Dave

[gsky]

The Midwest Plans Service from Iowa State Univ. has a nice publication on building glued trusses($7). I used their plans for my garage trusses.

http://www.mwps.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=c_Products.viewProduct&catID=710&productID=6446&skunumber=MWPS%2D9&crow=9

Gary

[Tom Robb]

This is really off subject, but the regularly flood disaster items in the news get to me.
Why, why, why? Why do these folks rebuild in the same place? Why not move to higher ground? And even better, why do we (govt, insurance, charities, etc) not insist that they do so or pay their own way out of their follies?
Helping out those who are blindsided by disaster is the right thing to do, but is building in a flood zone the right thing to do?