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Tylerdurden
06-20-2008, 07:07 PM
Pacifism equals pacified to this activist
Peter Gelderloos How Nonviolence Protects the State

I could spend plenty of time talking about the failures of nonviolence. Instead, it may be useful to talk about its supposed successes. Frequently cited examples are India's struggle for independence from British colonial rule, the U.S. civil rights movement of the 1960s, and the peace movement during the war in Vietnam. Though they have not yet been hailed as a victory, the massive protests in 2003 against the United States' invasion of Iraq also have been applauded by nonviolent activists. In claiming these as victories for nonviolence, however, pacifists have engaged in a pattern of historical manipulation and whitewashing.

In India, the story goes, people led by Mahatma Gandhi built up a massive nonviolent movement over decades and engaged in protest, noncooperation, economic boycotts, hunger strikes, and other acts of disobedience that made British imperialism unworkable. The movement suffered massacres and responded with a couple of riots, but on the whole, the movement was nonviolent and eventually won independence, providing an undeniable hallmark of pacifist victory.
The actual history is more complicated. Many violent pressures also influenced the British decision to withdraw. The British had lost the ability to maintain colonial power after losing millions of troops and resources during two extremely violent world wars. The armed struggles of Arab and Jewish militants in Palestine from 1945 to 1948 further weakened the British Empire, and these conflicts served as a clear threat of what might result if the Indians gave up civil disobedience to take up arms en masse.


continued.... http://www.utne.com/2007-05-01/ArmsandtheMovement.aspx

Osborne Russell
06-20-2008, 09:18 PM
these conflicts served as a clear threat of what might result if the Indians gave up civil disobedience to take up arms en masse.

That's why you have to keep up the civil disobedience. It's like tying a string around their finger.

Captain Blight
06-20-2008, 11:52 PM
The fact that they were stretched thin as gossamer over the Mau Mau rebellion and the Malayan Emergency at the same time they were bankrupted after fighting WWII probably had a lot to do with it.

Tylerdurden
06-22-2008, 02:03 PM
It just goes to show that most likely now those heading up the peaceful movement are deluded to think they have any real effect.

There is no change without great risk. Holding a sign and chanting is no risk at all. Its really just useless except for maybe media attention. How many protests have you seen on the news lately?
I also wonder how many of the founders stood chanting holding signs?

Captain Blight
06-22-2008, 02:42 PM
It just goes to show that most likely now those heading up the peaceful movement are deluded to think they have any real effect.

There is no change without great risk. Holding a sign and chanting is no risk at all. Its really just useless except for maybe media attention. How many protests have you seen on the news lately?
I also wonder how many of the founders stood chanting holding signs?

This may be harder rock than some of you normally would listen to, but there's a band out of Florida called Against Me! that wrote a great song about the futility of "singing protest songs":

White People For Peace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OzkivWf78A). Very well-directed video, very visual and symbolic.

Lyrics (http://www.allyrics.net/a/2535/Against_Me!-lyrics/155367/White_People_For_Peace/index.htm)

Cuyahoga Chuck
06-22-2008, 03:15 PM
Tylerdurden,
Your continual use of the word "deluded" to characterize those that don't buy your product may make you feel better but it won't ever win over any of the numerous disinterested parties that may view your analysis.
Somewhere in the psychology books they talk about the irrational inclination to feel that one is in touch with the truth and that all others, being not so blessed, are "deluded".
Make of this whatever you will.

Tylerdurden
06-22-2008, 03:20 PM
Tylerdurden,
Your continual use of the word "deluded" to characterize those that don't buy your product may make you feel better but it won't ever win over any of the numerous disinterested parties

Most disinterested do not post. Your continually responding so does that mean your disinterested? Or disinformation?

I think someone is deluded here and its not me.

The Bigfella
06-22-2008, 07:47 PM
I think someone is deluded here and its not me.


Maybe you should run a poll?

Rigadog
06-22-2008, 08:59 PM
"Lie down, Lie down! And the horses will not trample us!" (from Ghandi the Musical)