Anyone bought pix from boatpix.com?

[ron ll]

Yesterday while crossing Puget Sound a small helicoptor hovered around us and snapped pix of the boat. Their website was painted in large letters on the pontoons. Going to their website then explains that they will send you the prints and you buy what you want or send them back. (Sounds like a fun business model for them. :) ) Has anyone here bought pix from them?

[Yeadon]

I've never heard of this ... how much are the photos? With the price of fuel these days, that's got to be a tough business model.

I'd probably get pretty irritated if a small helicopter hovered over me while I was out sailing, but then, I'm pretty crotchedly for only being 35.

[ron ll]

Don't know the prices. I was in a powerboat but I did notice they caused some rippling on the water for a very short time. I assume they would be sensitive to sailboats. But then maybe the whole thing is just a cover for Homeland Security. :D

[Pernicious Atavist]

They'll sell you pics of your boat they acquired without permission. Now, will they sell those pics to others without a commission to you? See, that's wrong. Since they're not covering a news event, they don't have permission to sell your image without permission. Paparazzi get away with it because celebrities are 'news,' but chances are you don't fall into that category. Now, they may yell First Amendment, but that guarantees things other than selling images for a profit. Sounds like they owe you something....

[Kaa]

They'll sell you pics of your boat they acquired without permission. Now, will they sell those pics to others without a commission to you? See, that's wrong. Since they're not covering a news event, they don't have permission to sell your image without permission.

That's not true. Barring obvious privacy violations (as in, taking pictures through windows of what's happening inside the house), anyone can take pictures of other people as well as their boats and sell these pictures.

The general rule is that the so-called "editorial usage" of images does NOT require permission from the subject, while the "commercial usage" does. Before you get too excited, note that "commercial usage" is defined as advertising and using the image in other ways to sell some product. Selling photos to magazines and websites, selling photos to be framed and put on the wall, selling them as art, whatever it means, -- all of that is "editorial usage".

The short version is that selling pictures of you and your boat even without your permission is perfectly legal.

Kaa

[Yeadon]

You're out sailing in the middle of Puget Sound. That's a pretty public place. Anybody can take a photo of you and sell it.

Say you're inside your shop, with a sailboat that has a very innovative design, and you're trying to keep it private, then that's a different story. (Though if you leave your bay doors wide open ... and they stand in the middle of the street and take a photo, then things get a little sketchy.)

I suggest a cloaking device.

[Noah]

The word on Sailing Anarchy is that they are a bunch of bastards -

They take the shots of you, and you ask them to mail them to you so you can see them.

You then decide hmmm, I don't want to pay for them, and like a good person you send them back.

Turns out 9 times out of 10 they will say they never got the pictures back and charge you for all of them. You dispute then they send it to a collections agency just for fun.

Your credit gets ruined, you don't get your pictures, and you spend months trying to work it all out - all because you thought it would be nice to get a picture of your boat.

There was a reason folks cheered when one of their helicopters crashed recently (nobody injured).

Also, if you are racing they can really screw up your wind by flying way too low - it sucks.

[Yeadon]

There's some lousy word-of-mouth marketing for you ...

[gert]

If it were a decent picture I'd buy it in a minute.
I would love a picture of Carina under sail in a good breeze healed over.

[Bob Cleek]

Well, if they are flying below the required ceiling and causing problems by doing so, they are looking at some serious fines. A complaint to the FAA together with their registration number should get some quick action! (I'd expect Paladin would know the ins and outs of this, since he's a long time pilot.)

This "business model" is old as dirt. Some photographers used to shadow the racing fleets, get a copy of the entry list or show up at the after race party and sell pictures. Some of these photographers were extremely good. Dianne Beeston, now moved north, was once the premier boat portraitist on SF Bay. Her photos are cherished by htose who have them. She was the Ben Mendelowitz of her day. Heck, Becken of Cowes started out the same way. The chopper is a new wrinkle, although there are guys around taking aerial photos of houses and trying to sell them to people all the time. I hardly think you could get a good photo of a boat from up in the air. The lower the angle, the better. Becken actually had a special camera built that he could hang over the side of his boat to get below the rail shots!

BTW, the accepted practice is to provide PROOFS of photos offered for purchase. The proofs have "proof" written across them, or sometimes deeply embossed in them, so they are good for nothing else. I've never seen anybody want their proofs back. If the stories are true, these guys are either crooks or don't know what they are doing.

[Hwyl]

Seconding what Noah said.

[Pernicious Atavist]

I happily stand corrected!

[Concordia...41]

Yeah - they had some pictures of us in the Miami - Key Largo race last year. The prices were pretty high - something like $25 for a 4x6.

When they went over I was in the companion way handing up beer :D

Didn't figure they got any real good action shots - unless of course - passing around chips and salsa counts... :rolleyes:

After hearing the above, I'm even gladder I didn't bite.

- M

[John B]

I third what Noah says .Very bad rep on SA.
It sounds more like the way they do business rather than the taking of the photos, although I suppose the more aggressive they are in business terms may reflect in how aggressively they fly as well. Lots of talk of windflow ruined in racing etc.

Still, the best hang it on the wall, talk about it, look at it repeatedly photos I have ,have been taken from choppers.
One fantastic one of Waione out of a series in 35 knots in about 2000 and a set of great shots of Riada taken in the coastal classic race last year.
Took one of those to my sailmaker and said seee,,, see what I mean about that main.:D

Came across the Waione one hanging in a shop earlier this year as it happens, that was a buzz.
" do you sell many of those"
"Yeah, mostly to tourists"
ahahahaa.

[Saltiguy]

A few years ago they photographed my boat, and I contacted their website. As I recall, they wanted $300.00 for the photo - with NO proof. They really expected me to buy it sight unseen! I e-mailed back, told them I thought they were crazy and suggested that I would consider paying a maximum of $100., after seeing and approving a proof. They agreed, but then added the deal-breaker. My boat is a commercial charter boat, and if I was to buy a photo, I was going to use it in my advertising brochure. They knew that, from the photo, and said there would be additional and on-going charges for advertising usage. Good-bye! I thought they were a very strange and difficult company to deal with.

[crawdaddyjim50]

That's not true. Barring obvious privacy violations (as in, taking pictures through windows of what's happening inside the house), anyone can take pictures of other people as well as their boats and sell these pictures.

The general rule is that the so-called "editorial usage" of images does NOT require permission from the subject, while the "commercial usage" does. Before you get too excited, note that "commercial usage" is defined as advertising and using the image in other ways to sell some product. Selling photos to magazines and websites, selling photos to be framed and put on the wall, selling them as art, whatever it means, -- all of that is "editorial usage".

The short version is that selling pictures of you and your boat even without your permission is perfectly legal.

Kaa

Only if there are no identifiable people in the picture. If you can tell who it is then there must be a release signed or there can be a suit.

[mpenney]

a) I tried to contact them to get an image of a tugboat race this weekend... kinda hard to deal with... got the 'tude... they will show online proofs now but they won't show me what i want to buy... so no sale for me...
b) prices are high for spec photos... i would charge the same for a custom shoot
c) flying is subsidized by charging students to log airtime
d) there is no minimum height for helicopter... look up the rules... if you are not "endangering" anyone over water you can be 1 inch off the deck...
e) if you are in a public place you (legally) usually have no "expectation of privacy"... therefore anyone can take your picture of you and or your property (property has no legal rights) and do anything they want with the photo except libel you (say you are bad or doing something illegal or immoral) or put words in your mouth (use your photo to "endorse" a product for sale, aka advertising).

Can't figure out how to post photos here... you need at least 200k to get a photo 500 pixels yet the limit here is 19.2k which is the size of a pencil point.

[Ian McColgin]

crawdaddyjim50, I'd be charmed if you could cite any law or even case to back your statement that flies in the face of all blackletter and case law I know of. Basicly, if you're lawfully in a public place, you can photograph whatever you can see. There are some exceptions like national security and putting the camera under someone's dress or otherwise violating a reasonable (a seriously limiting term) expectation of privacy. There are plenty of times someone will lie to you about it - like cops beating someone hate being photographed.

You don't need a release to draw, paint or photograph and then sell that. If you use a person's image for commercial advertising of a product of some sort, then you'd need permission but that's different. You don't need permission to sell a picture.

[Concordia...41]

They've photographed us on two occasions - a couple years back when we were campaigning one of the Hunter 27xs in the Miami - Key Largo (yeah, I know, it sucks to be me ;)) and last year they got some shots of SARAH as we were going out the inlet to race.

We were racing hard in Miami (well, as hard as one can race to Key Largo...) but right as they went over I jumped below to hand up beer. The fresh beer and the bag of chips fully visible next to the helmsman diminished the "action shot" feel and I sent those back without purchasing.

The ones of SARAH just weren't good shots. We didn't have the sails up completely. If they'd have hung out for the race start and gotten some of those shots, but us just bouncing out the cut under main alone - not so much.

Those also got sent back - with no problems from the BoatPix folks. Somewhere I have a picture of the pictures.

They're quite expensive though. I think close to $300 - which for a major action shot beating someone across the line with sails in perfect trim - maybe. Otherwise, no.

The letter that came with the pictures explained their fuel costs and why it was so expensive, but it seems like I priced a local helicopter ride at about the same and you could get dozens of pictures - that you own.

YMMV

-M

[SMARTINSEN]

Can't figure out how to post photos here... you need at least 200k to get a photo 500 pixels yet the limit here is 19.2k which is the size of a pencil point.




Here's how to post photos on this forum:

First - don't attach photos. Only a tiny version will display.

Second - Post the photos on the web. Use your own website, or a free image hosting service like www.flickr.com, picturetrail, photobucket, etc.

Once posted on the web, right-click the photo to copy the URL (web address). Always test first by pasting the photo URL into the location field (http:// ) of a web browser and see if the photo displays.

(Flickr only - You usually have to first click the ALL SIZES link near the top -- then you can get the URL by right-clicking or copying the "Grab the photo's URL" data field below the image. If you don't want the largest size (displayed) you can then click another option in the 'Available sizes" links above the image.)

Third - once posted on the web, try this procedure while logged in to this Forum:

1. Click the "User CP" link in the browser window in the top left of the menu bar.

2. Click the "Edit Options" link about halfway down the left column.

3. At the bottom of the next page in "Misc Options", select "Enhanced Interface" from the pulldown list. Click the SAVE CHANGES button.

4. Once this interface has been selected, in any "Reply" window you can click the "insert photo" icon --> a little yellow square icon with the stamp in the upper right corner, the mountains in the lower center.

5. Once the little dialog box titled "Please enter the URL of your image" comes up, paste the URL of the photo in the field.

TROUBLESHOOTING:
If unsure of the procedure, test first by pasting the photo URL into the location field (http:// ) of a web browser.

Remember, the PHOTO URL will end in .jpg, not .htm or html. URLs ending in .htm are the page that the image is on, not the photo location itself. If the photo URL ends in other code, try deleting everything after the "xxxxxx.jpg" part of the URL to get it to display on web forums.



<<<

[bamamick]

It wasn't boatpix, but they always have a pro photographer at Cleveland Race Week, and even though I have never bought pictures from them one of my crew did and gave one to me, and I pretty much cherish it. I only wish he had bought the one with us rounding the first weather mark in first (which wound up being our worst race of that series, oddly enough).

They have had photographers at a couple of Finn events I have been to. Now that's got to be a hard sell. A fat guy who is in a neopreme suit, not hiking, with a look on his face as if he may die at any given moment, usually doesn't make for a nice photograph.

Mickey Lake

[limeydal]

crawdaddyjim50, I'd be charmed if you could cite any law or even case to back your statement that flies in the face of all blackletter and case law I know of. Basicly, if you're lawfully in a public place, you can photograph whatever you can see. There are some exceptions like national security and putting the camera under someone's dress or otherwise violating a reasonable (a seriously limiting term) expectation of privacy. There are plenty of times someone will lie to you about it - like cops beating someone hate being photographed.

You don't need a release to draw, paint or photograph and then sell that. If you use a person's image for commercial advertising of a product of some sort, then you'd need permission but that's different. You don't need permission to sell a picture.

Ian,
you are the the voice of reason !
As a sailing photographer down here in San Diego, I come across the various opinions frequently.
You are correct and only when considering using those images to "promote a product/ service etc" do you need a release.
Usually in those cases ,people are very co-operative and will sign a release for a few good quality shots for themselves. There's no "big money" in the run of the mill shots and people appreciate a good keepsake in return.
My charges are modest and make me just enough to keep me out on the water.
In 5 years of doing this ,I have only 2 people object to me shooting them. Both cases, I was happy to back off and let them enjoy their day sailing. (although I did have another ask me to remove his picture from my web site, as i don't think it was his wife who was "crewing" ;).

cheers Dal

[tomlarkin]

The Boatpix people were flying very low and close to the boats at the tugboat races. I found them annoying after a while. I also found them in a couple dozen shots when I looked over my pictures from the day...
http://donutboat.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/p1040816_thumb.jpg

although I kind of like this one -
http://donutboat.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/p1040848_thumb.jpg

[elf]

Birds fly as low as they dare to shoot races, and in Newport they often have the hired photographer in them. Sometimes Billy Black or Onne will go hire their own bird to get aerials of a unique event, but mostly the supporters of the event do the hiring.

In Newport the people flying the bird know just exactly how close they can go without making a problem for the racers.

As for BoatPix, they have been showing up with press shooters on them recently.

[halberst]

I was photographing the Seattle tugboat race from shore. That pesky little Robinson R33 helicopter kept getting in my shots. When I got home, I looked them up and was really surprised by 1) how boring the few photos on their site looked 2) how expensive they were. I've been trying to figure out how they contact boat owners (or do they only get contacted by owners who see the boatpix.com logo on the pontoon?) Seems like a very lucrative business.

http://halberst.zenfolio.com/img/v18/p747463780-4.jpg


a) I tried to contact them to get an image of a tugboat race this weekend... kinda hard to deal with... got the 'tude... they will show online proofs now but they won't show me what i want to buy... so no sale for me...
b) prices are high for spec photos... i would charge the same for a custom shoot
c) flying is subsidized by charging students to log airtime
d) there is no minimum height for helicopter... look up the rules... if you are not "endangering" anyone over water you can be 1 inch off the deck...
e) if you are in a public place you (legally) usually have no "expectation of privacy"... therefore anyone can take your picture of you and or your property (property has no legal rights) and do anything they want with the photo except libel you (say you are bad or doing something illegal or immoral) or put words in your mouth (use your photo to "endorse" a product for sale, aka advertising).

Can't figure out how to post photos here... you need at least 200k to get a photo 500 pixels yet the limit here is 19.2k which is the size of a pencil point.