PDA

View Full Version : This is one of the number one things wrong with the so called War on Drugs



Paul Pless
06-16-2008, 08:19 AM
There is a direct relationship between this phenomenon and the paramilitarization of our local and state law enforcement agencies.

From NPR this morning.
Morning Edition (http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=3), June 16, 2008 Every year, about $12 billion in drug profits returns to Mexico from the world's largest narcotics market the United States. As a tactic in the war on drugs, law enforcement pursues that drug money and is then allowed to keep a portion as an incentive to fight crime.
As a result, the amount of drug dollars flowing into local police budgets is staggering. Justice Department figures show that in the past four years alone, the amount of assets seized by federal law enforcement agencies the vast majority of it cash has tripled, from $567 million to $1.6 billion. And that doesn't include tens of millions more the agencies got from state asset forfeiture programs.
In Texas, with its smuggling corridors to Mexico, public safety agencies seized more than $125 million last year.
While drug-related asset forfeitures have expanded police budgets, critics say the flow of money distorts law enforcement that some cops have become more interested in seizing money than drugs, more interested in working southbound than northbound lanes.
"If a cop stops a car going north with a trunk full of cocaine, that makes great press coverage, makes a great photo. Then they destroy the cocaine," says Jack Fishman, an IRS special agent for 25 years who is now a criminal defense attorney in Atlanta. "If they catch 'em going south with a suitcase full of cash, the police department just paid for its budget for the year."
'We have To Be Prepared'
U.S. Highway 77 follows the coastal bend of South Texas past mesquite thickets, grapefruit stands and vast historic ranches on its way to the Mexican border.
Drug agents say Highway 77 is one of the busiest smuggling corridors in the world. Think of it as a great two-way river drugs flow north, drug money flows south. For the impoverished cities and counties situated along 77, it is like a river of gold.
On one 15-mile section that runs through Texas' Kleberg County, the southbound lanes have become a "piggy bank," according to the local sheriff. In the past four years, combined seizures have surpassed $7 million.
It starts with a traffic stop.
"Look at this hose. Look on this side. So that tells me somebody has messed with it. I have fingerprints right here," says officer Mike Tamez of the Kingsville Police Department, as he inspects the engine of a gray Ford pickup truck that was headed south. He's looking for clues to where the driver might have hidden drug money.
"Come over and look at [the] air filter housing? Look how clean these are compared to the other parts of the vehicle," he says. After searching for 20 minutes, Tamez and the other officers crawling over the truck don't find anything, and they send the motorists on their way.
There's always tomorrow.
In January, Tamez a gung-ho former Marine with a buzz cut stopped a white Land Rover for changing lanes without using a blinker. The driver's story was inconsistent. Then Tamez noticed fresh silicone under the rear deck. A density meter showed something bulky inside. He brought it into the shop to investigate.
"When I pulled the drill bit out there was pieces of money on it, currency. Inside the compartments we discovered 80 bundles of U.S. currency. He disavowed knowledge of everything," Tamez says.
The bundles contained $1 million. According to the law, 80 percent of that will go to the Kingsville Police Department. So that one afternoon's work will boost the department's budget by 25 percent.
"Law enforcement has become a business, and where best to hit these narcotics organizations other than in the pocketbook? That's where it's going to hurt the most. And then to be able to turn around and use those same assets to benefit our department, that's a win-win situation as far as we're concerned," says Kingsville Police Chief Ricardo Torres.
In this sleepy city of 25,000 people, with its enviable low crime rate, police officers drive high-performance Dodge Chargers and use $40,000 digital ticket writers. They'll soon carry military-style assault rifles, and the SWAT team recently acquired sniper rifles.
When asked why the Kingsville Police Department needs sniper rifles, Torres says, "With homeland security, we all hear about where best to hit than Middle America. This can be considered that sort of area. We have to be prepared."
'Addicted to Drug Money'
Federal and state rules governing asset forfeiture explicitly discourage law enforcement agencies from supplementing their budgets with seized drug money or allowing the prospect of those funds to influence law enforcement decisions.
There is a law enforcement culture particularly in the South in which police agencies have grown, in the words of one state senator from South Texas, "addicted to drug money."
Part of the problem lies with governing bodies that count on the dirty money and, in essence, force public safety departments to freelance their own funding.
In Kleberg County, where Kingsville is the county seat, Sheriff Ed Mata drives a gleaming new police-package Ford Expedition bought with drug funds. This year, he went to his commissioners to ask for more new vehicles.
"They said, 'Well, there ain't no money, use your assets,' " he says. He says his office needs the money "to continue to operate on the magnitude we need."
Another county agency, the Kingsville Specialized Crimes and Narcotics Task Force, survives solely on seized cash. Said one neighboring lawman, "They eat what they kill." A review by NPR shows at least three other Texas task forces that also are funded exclusively by confiscated drug assets.
The concern here is that allowing sworn peace officers who are entrusted with enormous powers to make money off police work distorts criminal justice.
"We're not going to sidestep the law and seize people's money just for the financial gains of the department," Tamez says. "It's not going to happen."

Phillip Allen
06-16-2008, 08:27 AM
THAT, my friends is what I've been yelling about for years...YEARS! there is a conflict of interest painted in bright letters...cash grabs abound from speeding fines to seat belt fines and bicycle helmet fines an PFD fines...and everyone just sits back and drinks the Kool-Ade without blinking...what a bunch of fools!!!

Dutch
06-16-2008, 08:27 AM
where is the problem?

The days of Andy and Barney letting Otis lock him self up for the night are over.

ccmanuals
06-16-2008, 08:30 AM
My son in law, a cop in Dallas, told me that they get a ton of money at DFW airport and apparently if a ticket agent alerts them then the agent even gets a a sizable award. Here is a typical DFW scenario he told me. A dubious looking person with bulges under their clothes gets stopped and questioned. They normally consent to a search. Wads of cash is strapped to their body. The detectives will ask the individual where did the money come from and then Tell them they will give them 24 hours to prove they got the money legitimately. He said that 99 times out of a hundred the individual will say basically they don't know how the money got the there. The cops take the cash and the perp walks out the door.

Phillip Allen
06-16-2008, 08:38 AM
KAIN'T YOU GUYS SEE THIS COMMIN? And NOW how will we stop it???!!!

Phillip Allen
06-16-2008, 08:45 AM
all I ever get from some people is "we want faks and graphs and numbers...leaving out the FACT that that particular fox is the same one who is guarding the hen house!

Captain Blight
06-16-2008, 08:52 AM
We stop by...

****, I don't know. I am 100% convinced that seizures are the only reason marijuana is still illegal. I'd like to bake a giant pan of *brownies* for everybody in Congress and all their lobbyists, and every single buzz-cut hardass county sheriff and tell them to chill the f^(k out.

I think it comes from frightened people wanting to have their unreasonable fears soothed, even by lies, even by proxy. Most people would rather grovel to some powerhungry pig (I say this with deliberate intent, and apologise to our LEO forumites. You aren't the kinds of blokes I'm talking about. But I bet you know some....) than for one minute face their abyss within and look their fear head-on and arrange their lives so they don't have to be afraid any more.

OTOH, a Conservative is a Liberal who just got robbed; a Liberal is a Conservative who's just been arrested.

Katherine
06-16-2008, 11:30 AM
Don't you like having your money put to good use dear?:rolleyes:

LeeG
06-16-2008, 11:46 AM
But Phillip, dear Ronnie said we have a War on Drugs, Mommy Dearest Nancy said "Just Say No!", GW honestly can't remember if he ever snorted coke(from Scot McClellans book).

These are the pillars of the Republican Party platform for decades. You surely don't suggest we undermine the dominant paradigm that drugs are evil and evil doers have to be punished? If anything is done to reduce revenues from drug seizures,,,why that would require more taxes wouldn't it? Taxes are bad, economic incentives are good.

Everything is under control and is as it should be,,until a majority of Americans and their politicians think otherwise.

If you are suggesting to inhibit the economic incentives of the drug enforcement industry,,I'd have to question your patriotism, morals, and standing in the Republican Party,, gotta be tough on Drugs you know,,now that every one is medicated on something,,gotta be tough on drugs, because illegal drugs are a big problem.

David W Pratt
06-16-2008, 11:54 AM
Seems as if this would incentivize the police to allow the drugs in, but not the $$$ out.

Phillip Allen
06-16-2008, 12:02 PM
...duh...

ljb5
06-16-2008, 12:17 PM
Phillip, some of us have been concerned about this for years.

About 14 years ago, there was a plan called "Contract With America" that one of the political parties used to gain popularity and win an election.

If you take a careful look at the contract and its after-effects, you'll see that much of it was designed to turn our nation's judicial system into a for-proift enterprise.

Stuff like "mandatory minimums", "truth in sentencing" and "three strikes and you're out" laws were advertized as making us safer, but they didn't really accomplish that.

Since then, our prison population has increased by something like 200%.

You should look into the history of private, for-profit prison systems.

Originally, they were sold as a way to decrease government expense, under the general belief that private companies could be more efficient than government.

It may have been a good idea at one time, but it didn't take them long to figure out that a for-profit prison has an incentive to find more criminals. After they locked up all the criminals they already had, they did what any company would do --- look for new markets.

They decided that non-violent drug offenders were the cheapest (hence, most profitable) to incarcerate, so they hired some lobbyists and made some contributions to some politicians to make sure they had an endless supply of profit. (By profit, I mean people).

Kaa
06-16-2008, 12:25 PM
It feels strange to agree with ljb5 :D but yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as prison-industrial complex and <deity> help you if you fall into its meatgrinder.

Kaa

Phillip Allen
06-16-2008, 12:28 PM
looks like Ill-jay and I are on the same page...who'd-a-thunk?

ljb5
06-16-2008, 12:47 PM
looks like Ill-jay and I are on the same page...who'd-a-thunk?

It's been my page for the last 15 years. You're welcome to join me, if you like.

Gary E
06-16-2008, 12:50 PM
When one of your loved ones is KILLED by a dope smoking magot infested somb!tchs that breaks into your house and KILL's someone durring a robery, maybe just maybe you change you mind and agree that the DOPE SMOKING DRUGGIE's should be locked up in a Joe Arpia type jail outsde in the middle of freekinnowhere and forced to wear pinkpanties and eat baloney sandwiches...

Drugs are KILLING this country and they must be stopped, or YOUR gona be the next...

Michael s/v Sannyasin
06-16-2008, 01:12 PM
Not too long ago, in New York, or New Jersey, there was a case where a number of cops were charged with planting drugs on certain properties that were of interest to themselves. They would then execute a search warrant, "find" the drugs, the house would be seized as an asset forfiture, then re-sold at auction, and the cops themselves would bid on and win it.

If you ask me, allowing for any possible benefit to the cops doing the seizure, asset forfiture is just asking for trouble.

BETTY-B
06-16-2008, 01:17 PM
When one of your loved ones is KILLED by a dope smoking magot infested somb!tchs that breaks into your house and KILL's someone durring a robery, maybe just maybe you change you mind and agree that the DOPE SMOKING DRUGGIE's should be locked up in a Joe Arpia type jail outsde in the middle of freekinnowhere and forced to wear pinkpanties and eat baloney sandwiches...

Drugs are KILLING this country and they must be stopped, or YOUR gona be the next...

This is exactly the malarky that get's us all nowhere. Insensitive, uncompassionate, cold, frothing, scare tactic rhetoric. Utter nonsense. Give the diarrea a rest Gary. It'll lower your blood pressure and you just might live longer.


I'm glad to see people are finally figuring this out. Too bad it's so ingrained and probably too late.

DAN

Kaa
06-16-2008, 01:19 PM
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms requires the following items, Purchase Description Determined by Line Item, to the following: LI 001, EXACT MATCH ONLY - Leatherman Micra Color: Blue - Part number 64340101K Engraved with: ATF-Asset Forfeiture AND "always think forfeiture" PLEASE REFER TO THE ATTACHMENT. NOTE: ATF MAY REQUEST A SAMPLE TO DETERMINE IF IT MEETS OUR REQUIREMENT. A picture of the item may be substituted in place of the actual sample. ***Partial Shipments are allowed. Please use the space below to explain your delivery schedule. Preferred Delivery is between November 15th-23rd, NLT November 23rd***, 2000, EA;(from http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1989826/posts)

Kaa

SamSam
06-16-2008, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gary E http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1867508#post1867508)
When one of your loved ones is KILLED by a dope smoking magot infested somb!tchs that breaks into your house and KILL's someone durring a robery, maybe just maybe you change you mind and agree that the DOPE SMOKING DRUGGIE's should be locked up in a Joe Arpia type jail outsde in the middle of freekinnowhere and forced to wear pinkpanties and eat baloney sandwiches...

Drugs are KILLING this country and they must be stopped, or YOUR gona be the next...

This is exactly the malarky that get's us all nowhere. Insensitive, uncompassionate, cold, frothing, scare tactic rhetoric. Utter nonsense. Give the diarrea a rest Gary. It'll lower your blood pressure and you just might live longer.


I'm glad to see people are finally figuring this out. Too bad it's so ingrained and probably too late.

DAN

I think he actually got spume and spittle all over my computer.

A lot of people think that if drugs were legalized, the extreme cost for users and extreme profit for criminals would collapse. The crime required to support habits would diminish, the diminished profits would end turf wars among dealers. Of course, illegal drugs being a growth industry and bedrock employment factor and fund generator for law enforcement, as well as a guaranteed vote getter for politicians, sort of insures drug violence will be around for the foreseeable future.

Gary E
06-16-2008, 01:43 PM
This is exactly the malarky that get's us all nowhere. Insensitive, uncompassionate, cold, frothing, scare tactic rhetoric. Utter nonsense. Give the diarrea a rest Gary. It'll lower your blood pressure and you just might live longer.


I'm glad to see people are finally figuring this out. Too bad it's so ingrained and probably too late.

DAN

Malarky??? YOU and your kind of thinking are part of the problem...
Maybe it is to late, but if ya throw the doper's in the klink at least THEY ARE NOT BUYERS EVER AGAIN

Kaa
06-16-2008, 01:50 PM
http://blog.kir.com/archives/images/NORML_Remember_Prohibition_.jpg

Kaa

ljb5
06-16-2008, 01:53 PM
Maybe it is to late, but if ya throw the doper's in the klink at least THEY ARE NOT BUYERS EVER AGAIN

Of course not... because everyone knows there are no drugs in prison. :rolleyes:

Gary, if you're really so upset about the drug use and stuff, you ought to be looking for effective solutions.

"Just say No" and "throw away the key" don't seem to be working.

Gary E
06-16-2008, 02:00 PM
Ok smart guy..
tell us how the libs want to solve this problem...

One that does work is dont put them in prison...
SHOOT THE MoFo's

BETTY-B
06-16-2008, 02:04 PM
You could always tape their mouths shut and hang 'em Gary.

DAN

Gary E
06-16-2008, 02:09 PM
You could always tape their mouths shut and hang 'em Gary.

DAN
takes to long.. a .45 is faster

How bout I post your address in the delerict part of town and tell them you keep lotsa good stuff at home?...
easy to sell for the next hit and the whimp that lives there dont even know how to dial 911

BETTY-B
06-16-2008, 02:13 PM
I bet you are good at oiled up, naked backflips Gary... Unbelievable...

DAN

Kaa
06-16-2008, 02:14 PM
You're just encouraging him to vomit more hate on the forum...

Kaa

Gary E
06-16-2008, 02:15 PM
What the hell are you talking about??

ljb5
06-16-2008, 02:16 PM
Ok smart guy..
tell us how the libs want to solve this problem...

Well, for starters, I wouldn't label it as a "lib" solution or a "con" solution.

It would be nice to look for effective solutions.

Drug addiction is a public health issue. It's also a law-enforcement issue, but also an economic issue and an education issue.

It makes sense to approach it with multiple solutions.

Gary E
06-16-2008, 02:19 PM
Well, for starters, I wouldn't label it as a "lib" solution or a "con" solution.

It would be nice to look for effective solutions.

Drug addiction is a public health issue. It's also a law-enforcement issue, but also an economic issue and an education issue.

It makes sense to approach it with multiple solutions.

So... ya got NUTHIN... NOTHING... NO SOLUTIONS from YOU?? what else is new...

Phillip Allen
06-16-2008, 02:34 PM
gad...the emotional knee-jerks are out in force...when's the next full moon?

Gary E
06-16-2008, 02:39 PM
No soultions from NW Arkansas either..

Bob Smalser
06-16-2008, 02:43 PM
Arkansas? Look what this is doing to Mexico.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

On February 11, 2008, it was reported that already over 250 [18] people had died in the year of 2008 as a result of the two major drug cartels, the Sinaloa Cartel and the Gulf Cartel, fight against one another for territory, and against the Mexican military. By April 2008, this number had spiked up to 900 people killed in 2008.


http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN2639514820080427?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0...Some 190 people have been killed in Tijuana so far this year. In 2007, there were more than 2,500 drug killings across Mexico and there have been more than 900 this year.


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/05/27/mexico.police/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

MEXICO CITY, Mexico (CNN) -- Seven federal police officers were killed Tuesday in northwest Mexico in the latest in a series of drug-related violence, a spokesman for the federal police said.

Another four officers were wounded and a civilian was killed during the incident, which occurred as police were conducting a weapons and drugs raid on a home in Culiacan, police spokesman Armando Arteaga said.

...Calderon's campaign has been met with a vicious response that has resulted in more than 1,000 people dead in drug-related violence since the beginning of the year. The victims include Mexico City's top federal police chief as well as four other federal police killed in an ambush this month in Culiacan.

Pitched battles between rival drug gangs, assassinations of police officers and ambushes on city streets have made life hell for many residents of Culiacan....

BETTY-B
06-16-2008, 03:27 PM
What the hell are you talking about??

Can your penis reach your rusty sherifs badge?

Gary E
06-16-2008, 03:28 PM
Betty Boob with no brains...
or sh!t for brains

Phillip Allen
06-16-2008, 03:33 PM
Gary, you're being a reactionary...you could quit anytime if you wanted to...you'll feel better...really

Keith Wilson
06-16-2008, 03:35 PM
A little historical background, following Kaa's comment. The Mexicans have nothing on us. There's much,. much mroe from the '20s if anybody's interested. (quotes from Wikipedia)
The Shelton Brothers Gang was an early Prohibition era bootlegging gang based in southern Illinois. They were the main rivals of the famous bootlegger Charles Birger. In 1950 the Saturday Evening Post described the Sheltons as "America's Bloodiest Gang".

Formed by Earl, Carl, and Bernie Shelton of Wayne County, Illinois shortly after Prohibition came into effect in 1920, the gang operated in Williamson County, Illinois, making moonshine and other illegal liquor. They eventually dominated both gambling and liquor distribution in Little Egypt until former ally, gangster Charles Birger, attempted to take over the Sheltons' bootlegging operations in 1926. This began a violent gang war, which saw both sides using homemade armored trucks and included one incident of an aerial bombing raid by the Sheltons on Birger's Shady Rest headquarters. The war was fought for control of bootlegging in all of southern Illinois.

The Genna crime family was one of the major players in the Chicago gangland wars of the 1920s. It consisted of six Sicilian brothers: "Bloody Angelo", Antonio, Mike ("The Devil"), Peter, Sam, and Vincenzo ("Jim"). The violent and hot-tempered Genna brothers soon became known as the Terrible Gennas.

When Prohibition became federal law in 1919, the Gennas quickly realized that bootlegging could be a very profitable racket. They obtained a federal license to legally manufacture industrial alcohol, which they would later re-distill and sell as illegal drinking alcohol. The Gennas soon controlled the Little Italy area of Chicago (situated immediately west of The Loop). A three-story warehouse on Taylor Street served as their headquarters. The Gennas' power in Little Italy grew; they eventually backed the area's Republican Party boss, Joseph Esposito (mobster).

Soon the demand for the Gennas' cheap rotgut liquor outgrew their supply. Henry Spignola, a lawyer whose sister later married Angelo Genna, devised a plan to place small alcohol stills in households throughout Little Italy. The Gennas would pay each household $15 a day to be a "still watcher". The household distilling scheme was a success, producing a new surplus of alcohol. The trouble started when the Gennas started marketing this product outside their territory.

To prevent bloody turf wars between rival bootleggers, South Side boss John "The Fox" Torrio had negotiated a bootleggers combine that divided the city into territories for each bootlegger. With extra alcohol to sell, the Gennas started selling it at cut-rate prices outside their territory. This produced a clash with the North Side Gang under Dean O'Banion. O'Banion complained about the Gennas to Torrio. Torrio and local Unione Siciliana boss Mike Merlo managed to get the Gennas to back off a bit. However, since Torrio was allied with the Gennas, he refused to take any significant action against them. In addition, Torrio was unhappy with O'Banion's own cheating with his liquor sellers in the suburb of Cicero, Illinois.

O'Banion increased the conflict by hijacking a shipment of Genna whiskey and double-crossing Torrio on the sale of brewery. After this last provocation, Torrio acquiesed to the Gennas and decided to kill O'Banion. On November 10, 1924. Unione Siciliana national director Frankie Yale, a New York mob leader and assassins John Scalise and Albert Anselmi shot and killed O'Banion in his floral shop. Mike Genna drove the getaway car for the three gunmen.

With O'Banion's murder, Chicago erupted into gang war. North Siders George "Bugs" Moran, Earl "Hymie" Weiss, and Vincent "The Schemer" Drucci shot and wounded Torrio outside his home. After recovering from the hit, Torrio, now terrified, turned his operations over to his lieutenant Al Capone and fled to Italy. The North Siders also went after Capone, killing friends and gang members of his and also ambushing him frequently.

The North Side Gang took particular aim at the Genna brothers however. In May 1925, Moran chased down Angelo Genna in a high speed car chase and then shot him to death. Next, Mike "the devil" was gunned down by police when he turned his gun on them after a fierce shootout with the North Siders. Then, on November 1925, Drucci shot and killed Genna backer Samuzzo "Samoots" Amatuna in a barber shop. Soon after that, Tony Genna was shot to death in an ambush. It is has been said Al Capone ordered his death to finally put the Gennas out of the way. With the North Siders, as well as Capone, coming at them, the surviving Gennas left Chicago. Capone and Moran took the Genna spoils and continued to fight bloody turf wars throughout the decade that would not stop until Capone was sent away to prison.

All six Genna brothers are buried in Mount Carmel Cemetery in the Chicago suburb of Hillside, Illinois with both O'Banion and Capone.
The Broadway Mob was a New York bootlegging gang during Prohibition. Although headed by Joe Adonis, the gangs day-to-day operations were handled by Charles "Lucky" Luciano and Frank Costello as well as financially backed by Arnold Rothstein. During Manhattan's bootleg wars, Rothstein would bring in the Bug and Meyer Mob, led by Meyer Lansky and Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel, to protect alcohol shipments.

As Luciano and Lansky had previously worked together prior to Prohibition, Meyer and Siegel were made partners in the now multi-ethnic criminal organization. By the late 1920s, the Broadway Mob supplied New York speakeasies with some of the highest quality whiskey including Sherman Billingsley's Stork Club, the Silver Slipper, Jack White's, Jack and Charlie's 21 Club among others. Even its lesser quality alcohol imported from Philadelphia mobster Waxey Gordon was considered far superior to the rotgut liquor supplied by the rest of New York's underworld.

At the suggestion of Rothstein, the Broadway Mob bought interests in several popular speakeasies and nightclub which would lead to purchasing valuable real estate in Manhattan. Its operations were eventually absorbed into the criminal syndicate under Luciano and Lansky, following the repeal of Prohibition in 1933

The Purple Gang was a mob of bootleggers and hijackers in the 1920s. Under the leadership of Abe Bernstein, the gang operated out of Detroit, Michigan, in the United States, which was a major port for running cached alcohol products across during Prohibition, since it is on the border with Canada. Perhaps the most ruthless bootleggers of their time, they may have killed over 500 members of rival bootlegging gangs during Detroit's bootleg wars.

The Shapiro Brothers were a group of New York independent labor racketeers based in Williamsburg who controlled bootlegging, extortion, illegal gambling and prostitution in Brooklyn during the 1920s and 30s. Well established in the local garment industry, long dominated by Jacob "Gurrah" Shapiro and Louis "Lepke" Buchalter since the 1927 death of Jacob "Little Augie" Orgen, the two began to move against them in the summer of 1931. As the two sides battled for complete control over the garment industry in Brooklyn, Irving and Meyer Shapiro were killed by Joseph and Louis Amberg; Irving was gunned down near his apartment on July 11, and Meyer was found shot to death in the basement of a tenement building on Manhattan's Lower East Side on September 17, 1931. The following year, on orders from Buchalter, William Shapiro was finally killed by Murder Inc. members Martin "Bugsy" Goldstein and Abe "Kid Twist" Reles, supposedly being buried alive in a sandpit in the marshland of Canarsie by Reles and the Amberg brothers on the night of July 20, 1934.

Reles would implicate Buchalter in the murders during talks with District Attorney William O'Dwyer after agreeing to become a government informant in 1941. His later testimony would result in the conviction of Buchalter and the rest of Murder Inc., who were all eventually sentenced to death.

BETTY-B
06-16-2008, 03:39 PM
Gary,
I know it is hard for you to understand, but there are many more thoughtful(and effective) ways to solve society's intricate problems than to just "SHOOT THE MoFo's". You should look into the information buzzing around in your head to see why that's all you can come up with for a solution.

DAN

Gary E
06-16-2008, 03:46 PM
If your so smart about solutions, why arnt YOU BOSS?
or at least why arnt some of your so called solutions working?

By the way... WHAT ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS???

Phillip Allen
06-16-2008, 03:54 PM
try to take the money out of it for the politicians and cops first...then try to take the money out of it for the drug people

it's a start and a chance to minimize the complicity from government

BETTY-B
06-16-2008, 04:36 PM
If your so smart about solutions, why arnt YOU BOSS?
or at least why arnt some of your so called solutions working?

By the way... WHAT ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS???

They arnt doing any of what I would think would be a solution(of which there is never going to be anything perfect). They are still doing what you think seems to be working. Throwing them all in privatized prisons.

Phillip is onto a rational conversation about it though. To realize that any drug addict that is theiving is doing it only for "the drug" would be good to add. And that there are people who are going to do it anyways and if they dont need to come up with thousands of dollars everyday to feed their problem, the chances of them killing loved ones is going to dramatically drop from current levels.

By the way Gary, I'm sorry you have lost loved ones to this problem. I dont wish that on anyone.

DAN

Captain Blight
06-16-2008, 05:31 PM
If your so smart about solutions, why arnt YOU BOSS?
or at least why arnt some of your so called solutions working?

By the way... WHAT ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS???My solutions are to call ignorant racist rednecks like you, "Ignorant racist rednecks."

It doesn't solve all society's problems at once but I feel a little better anyway.

Gary, if YOUR ideas are so much better and YOUR ideas are The Solution...


Why aren't YOU the boss? And why aren't YOUR solutions working?

Katherine
06-16-2008, 06:29 PM
Legalize and tax the hell out of it.:rolleyes:

paladin
06-16-2008, 06:37 PM
I liked my way better but I promised I would be a good boy if I stayed in the U.S.....

pipefitter
06-16-2008, 08:17 PM
They wouldn't even have to make pot totally legal. They could start by making it legal to grow your own for personal consumption like they allow you to make wine or beer for personal use. Many pot heads would rather grow their own anyway. At least that way, a person has a choice to avoid legal implications concerning conspiracy or trafficking charges or making a living from the sale of it. There has to be a compromise in there somewhere. In Holland it's tolerated and they seem to do ok with the regulations and allowable amounts that can be deemed for personal usage. Most otherwise law abiding citizens would rather forgo the whole shady dealer and bubble gum gangster scene anyway.
Baby steps, people.

Pierce Nichols
06-16-2008, 09:03 PM
When one of your loved ones is KILLED by a dope smoking magot infested somb!tchs that breaks into your house and KILL's someone durring a robery, maybe just maybe you change you mind and agree that the DOPE SMOKING DRUGGIE's should be locked up in a Joe Arpia type jail outsde in the middle of freekinnowhere and forced to wear pinkpanties and eat baloney sandwiches...

Drugs are KILLING this country and they must be stopped, or YOUR gona be the next...

1) The War on Drugs is the cause of the violence associated with the drug trade. Exactly as with Prohibition -- when was the last time you heard about a shooting over the selling of rum?

2) Your proposed solution is to turn the police into violent, paramilitary thugs.

3) I hope you get framed for something by a crooked cop and get to experience first hand the vile sh*te you're selling.

Osborne Russell
06-16-2008, 09:04 PM
If you ask me, allowing for any possible benefit to the cops doing the seizure, asset forfiture is just asking for trouble.

An idiot can see that.

Osborne Russell
06-16-2008, 09:09 PM
If your so smart about solutions, why arnt YOU BOSS?
or at least why arnt some of your so called solutions working?

By the way... WHAT ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS???

Reds worship power. Only the opinions of the powerful matter. They can't comprehend why someone wouldn't want to be the boss but in any case can only have contempt for them.

It's a kind of immaturity. Too bad it causes wars. Someday we'll lose one really badly.

Bruce Taylor
06-16-2008, 09:11 PM
They wouldn't even have to make pot totally legal. They could start by making it legal to grow your own for personal consumption like they allow you to make wine or beer for personal use. Many pot heads would rather grow their own anyway. At least that way, a person has a choice to avoid legal implications concerning conspiracy or trafficking charges or making a living from the sale of it. There has to be a compromise in there somewhere. In Holland it's tolerated and they seem to do ok with the regulations and allowable amounts that can be deemed for personal usage. Most otherwise law abiding citizens would rather forgo the whole shady dealer and bubble gum gangster scene anyway.
Baby steps, people.

Now, there's a sensible post.

ljb5
06-16-2008, 10:00 PM
Gary, I don't think you're sincerly interested in my proposed solutions, but I'll offer them anyway. Drug addiction is like a public health issue. My approach would be to use standard techniques of epidemiology to address it.


Identify the populations at risk
Identify the risk factors
Identify the means of transmission
Remove the risk factors
Interrupt the transmission cycle
Isloate the sources
Promote healthy alternative behaviors


None of this means we should coddle drug users or drug dealers. It just means that we need to look for real cures, rather than just busting heads and destroying people's lives.

Captain Blight
06-16-2008, 10:29 PM
I have seen skull-cracking cops walk into a party, throw the host (5'2" 100 pound girl) on the floor, kneel on her neck, and say, "Knock knock, bitch! The Nazis are here!" You want to talk about a sense of outrage? I'd have been happy to square off against any two of those jerks if they'd have taken the badges off. The whole "war on drugs" is a travesty, a sham, a mockery. Powermad cops who get off on takin no **** from anyone, thinking they're doing society at large a favor by acting like jackbooted thugs.


The cure is worse than the disease.

pipefitter
06-16-2008, 11:01 PM
Gary, I don't think you're sincerly interested in my proposed solutions, but I'll offer them anyway. Drug addiction is like a public health issue. My approach would be to use standard techniques of epidemiology to address it.


Identify the populations at risk
Identify the risk factors
Identify the means of transmission
Remove the risk factors
Interrupt the transmission cycle
Isloate the sources
Promote healthy alternative behaviors


None of this means we should coddle drug users or drug dealers. It just means that we need to look for real cures, rather than just busting heads and destroying people's lives.

The populations at risk these days are nearly the entire population if you consider that so much drug abuse from supposedly legal prescription drugs has almost in many circles made illegal drugs obsolete. People that would never have had exposure to addictive drugs or even addictive behavior are now included in that risk. My best friend, who survived all the experimentation years without ever giving in to it as a lifestyle or long term usage beyond novelty trial and usage, just informed me the other day that he spent a week locked up in a motel with he and his wife going through withdrawals from oxycontin. Blew his 401k and nearly lost everything else. His cousin died last year from an OD of nerve and pain meds. He forgot he had already taken too many and doubled up on too many more and just never woke up.

When I go to the doctor now, I get the feeling they would rather write me a prescription than do proper diagnosis beyond the formalities. I would swear they suspect me of looking for a legitimate buzz.

LeeG
06-17-2008, 12:42 AM
It feels strange to agree with ljb5 :D but yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as prison-industrial complex and <deity> help you if you fall into its meatgrinder.

Kaa

for kicks and giggles research how the US gov't solicited individuals from the prison industrial complex to modernize and fix up the Iraqi prisons in June '03, surely a dozen guys buzzing around Iraq for $30k/mo to recommend improvements at Abu Ghraib and other places could take the place of a few hundred thousand troops,,and a post invasion plan.

SamSam
06-17-2008, 10:13 AM
Many pot heads would rather grow their own anyway. At least that way, a person has a choice to avoid legal implications....

And medical implications. The USA was spraying agent orange on the stuff, there is no telling what third world peons are putting on it to stop bug and fungus infestations. It can't be a good thing to smoke DDT.

Tanbark Spanker
06-17-2008, 04:27 PM
We all know how important the drug portion of the $900 billion black economy. Heck, this country would fold up like a cheap card table, without it's drug trade.

An interesting histroical note. The US began it's narco-terrorism back in the 1800's when it assisted the Russell cartel and the Crown with the Opium Wars in China.

Fledgling imperialists.

Tanbark Spanker
06-17-2008, 04:32 PM
For those of you that don't know. The Chinese were saying 'no' to drugs, because of the increasing number of addicts. The Engliish and the Yanks were saying 'if you don't let us sell our drugs to your people, we'll kill you.' The Russell family went on to fund the Order Of The Skull and Bones, an offshoot of some Nazi group ...and the rest is history.

Pierce Nichols
06-17-2008, 07:30 PM
For those of you that don't know. The Chinese were saying 'no' to drugs, because of the increasing number of addicts. The Engliish and the Yanks were saying 'if you don't let us sell our drugs to your people, we'll kill you.' The Russell family went on to fund the Order Of The Skull and Bones, an offshoot of some Nazi group ...and the rest is history.

Umm, the Skull and Bones may be a creepy secret society, but they predate Naziism by a few decades. That hasn't prevented many of their former members from doing business with the Nazis, of course.

glenallen
06-17-2008, 07:51 PM
If your so smart about solutions, why arnt YOU BOSS?
or at least why arnt some of your so called solutions working?

By the way... WHAT ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS???

Read pipefitters post #46.
Does that make sense to you?

Bob Adams
06-17-2008, 10:05 PM
When one of your loved ones is KILLED by a dope smoking magot infested somb!tchs that breaks into your house and KILL's someone durring a robery, maybe just maybe you change you mind and agree that the DOPE SMOKING DRUGGIE's should be locked up in a Joe Arpia type jail outsde in the middle of freekinnowhere and forced to wear pinkpanties and eat baloney sandwiches...

Drugs are KILLING this country and they must be stopped, or YOUR gona be the next...

Gary, it CAN'T be stopped. No more than Prohibition stopped alcohol. Tax and regulate. Stops the drug related gun deaths. Use the tax revenues to provide addiction treatment. Win win. Remember, as long as there is a demand, there WILL be a supply. We need to smarten up.

Captain Blight
06-17-2008, 10:29 PM
Or at least elect politicians willing to start a genuine public debate about it, instead of unilaterally dictating to their constituents. As a representative democracy we don't engage in government by referendum, but maybe a national referendum is what the drug (at least marijuana) situation calls for in this country.

Captain Blight
06-17-2008, 10:31 PM
And medical implications. The USA was spraying agent orange on the stuff, there is no telling what third world peons are putting on it to stop bug and fungus infestations. It can't be a good thing to smoke DDT.
As a former dedicated dope smoker, I can categorically state that any serious pothead either grows his own or knows somebody who does or has a reliable source. Most halfway decent weed comes in from Canuckistan anyway.

mmd
06-18-2008, 08:37 AM
Canuckistan? WTF is Canuckistan? Is it something like the Uncontrolled States of Agression?

Phillip Allen
06-18-2008, 08:53 AM
I believe pot is prolly Canuckistan's biggest cash crop

Gary E
06-18-2008, 09:03 AM
Gary, it CAN'T be stopped. No more than Prohibition stopped alcohol. Tax and regulate. Stops the drug related gun deaths. Use the tax revenues to provide addiction treatment. Win win. Remember, as long as there is a demand, there WILL be a supply. We need to smarten up.

"Cant be stopped" ??? ok... roll over and give your stuff to the dopers and drugggies...
or, SHOOT THE MoFo's and THAT one wont ever be a druggie ever again...

I'm not totally aginst weed, those who grow it for their own use, fine... UNTILL they get in a car and endanger others...then SHOOT THE BASTIDS... or LOCK THEM UP FOREVER

It's the ROCK and Heroin and Crystal, Meth... DRUGGIES.... SHOOT THEM...

Look at this....Not a bad idea

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Misuse of Drugs Act (Singapore)


Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_(Singapore)#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_(Singapore)#searchInput)
The Misuse of Drugs Act is a national drug control law classifying substances into three categories, Classes A, B, and C. Section 44 provides that "The Minister may, by an order published in the Gazette" add, remove, or transfer drugs among the classes. The statute's penal provisions are draconian by most nations' standards, providing for long terms of imprisonment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment), caning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore), and capital punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment). The law creates a presumption of trafficking for certain threshold amounts, e.g. 30 grams of cannabis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis). It also creates a presumption that a person possesses drugs if he possesses the keys to a premises containing the drugs, and that "Any person found in or escaping from any place or premises which is proved or presumed to be used for the purpose of smoking or administering a controlled drug shall, until the contrary is proved, be presumed to have been smoking or administering a controlled drug in that place or premises." Thus, it is dangerous to even be in the company of drug users. The law also allows officers to search premises and individuals, without a search warrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant), if he "reasonably suspects that there is to be found a controlled drug or article liable to seizure". Moreover, Section 31 allows officers to demand urinalysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinalysis) of suspected drug offenders.

More here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_(Singapore)

mmd
06-18-2008, 10:53 AM
Yup,


"Cannabis has surpassed wheat as Canada's most lucrative agricultural crop, Bloomberg News Wire reported last week. The report estimated Canada's illicit cannabis market to be worth $8.5 billion annually, approximately three times the size of Canada's largest legal crop." - National Organization for the Reform of Marihuana Laws (NORML), October 2005

But don't you 'Mericans feel left out...


Marijuana is the largest cash crop in the United States, more valuable than corn and wheat combined. Five states (California, Tennessee, Kentucky, Hawaii, and Washington ) had crops worth over $1 billion. The domestic marijuana crop is larger than cotton in Alabama, larger than peanuts in Georgia, and larger than tobacco in both North and South Carolina.

The failure of intensive eradication programs suggests that it is finally time to give serious consideration to marijuana's legalization in the United States.

- Jon Gettman, PhD, "Marijuana Production in the United States (2006), The Bulletin of Canabis Reform www.drugscience.org

Gary E
06-18-2008, 11:02 AM
Marijuana is the largest cash crop in the United States, more valuable than corn and wheat combined.

OKaaa.... lets trade it on the futures markets...:o :o

wait till the CBOT gets ahold of this