Assistance required - another bilge paint question..

[Shan]

Hello all!

Love this forum!

Have done many searches here to assist in my restoration project. Has been a great help.

More recently searched on bilge paint/treatment - there are MANY schools of thought! It also appears to depend on the type of wood, location etc.

I am fixing up a 28ft sloop - made from diagonally lined plywood and sheathed in GRP.

I am based in Australia. Boat will be on the water (salt), and will only come out for de-fouling/general repairs.

It was neglected somewhat - lot's of fresh water getting in the boat - causing a lot of furring on the first layer of ply. Some sections of the boat were quite damp.

Instead of pulling up the floor as I have done to prepare and repaint, a previous owner (in all their wisdom) decided to pour epoxy "around" the floor. I assume it was their hope that the epoxy would run down the inside of the hull, under the floor (with the assistance of gravity) to eventually end up in the bilge. Thus providing the necessary "waterproofing"...

Anyway - MESSY is a kind word.

I have chiselled off big chunks of epoxy, used a metal brush, scraped and sanded what I can away.
Epoxy ended up trapping water on some sections and repelling as intended on other sections.

After removing what I can, I have a bilge with some remnants of epoxy (what's left has a VERY good bond with the wood).

There were also sections of soft plywood. Size and depth of these vary, however after removing these soft sections with a wire brush/scraping - I appear to be back to good ply. These small sections do not go down more than one layer of ply - perhaps two at most.

Anyway, I need to seal these sections and the bilge.

I need to know what to treat this with!???

Do I use paint?
Do I use epoxy?
Do I use oil?

Epoxy?
Based on the history of boats poor treatment, I have a concern that the plywood is not completly dry. Epoxy on the inside, with GRP on the outside - does not give the wood a chance to breath. I do not want to trap anything in there.
However, epoxy does add strength to the areas of soft wood I needed to scrape off.

Paint?
The bilge has had some oil in it. I will treat , clean and prep the surface as best I can, but whatever I paint with would have to stick to the remaining epoxy and well as be tolerant of oily areas. However paint would allow the wood to breath (better than epoxy anyway).

Oil?
Someone mentioned linseed oil in another post. Would such a treatment be ok for use with plywood? Would it effect the glue bond between layers of ply? Is it ok to use this when boat is sheathed in GRP/fibreglass?

After trying to remove the epoxy, I am hesitant to re-apply it. However if it is the best things to use - so be it.

What do I do guys?

help.

Thanks.

[sdowney717]

on the ply layers which have eroded away, I would patch them with a mixture of epoxy and a fiberous filler. Dry the wood where the filler patches would go.
Dont try to remove anymore well stuck epoxy. Treat the remaining exposed sound wood with a preservative

Green Ethylene Glycol Antifreeze plus borates mixture
or
Linseed oil turpentine
or
CPES rot doctor stuff.
or
something else good for rot prevention.

Oil wont hurt the wood but I would think it will affect future glue/repair/paint properties of the wood.

I also wonder how well any paint will adhere long term to this bilge wood. And it may prevent the wood from drying to the point that fresh water will saturate the wood and then it will rot it out.

[WoodenBNut]

Yes, as indicated above. I would try to clean up the bilge as much as possible. *If it is really "yucky" (oil/grease, etc.) then you are going to have to use a detergent of some kind (Simple Green, Dawm Liquid Dishwashing Detergent). Maybe some pressure washing (but be real careful with the pressure washing and and keep the pressure settings on LOW). Make sure that you are not destroying/removing wood with the pressure washer! Might also use a steam cleaner if that is a resource you have or could rent. (*Personally I have had more luck with Simple Green & Dawn Liquid and the pressure washer on low pressure to clean the bigle (when it was Yucky - oil/grease, etc.) BUT, if you are going to do that, then you are going to have to let the bilge(wood/ply) completely dry out before the next step. Probably at least a month or two of drying out. Then I would coat the areas (that are clean and free of paint and or the previous epoxy) with Smith's CPES. I would try to do the CPES coating when it is as warm as possible and maybe even try to heat up the affected wood ares with a heat gun. *The CPES will be adsorbed better if the affected areas are warm. *You should also warm up the CPES mix as much as possible. **** Careful with the CPES when you are applying it as it give off noxious/posionous fumes. ** Wear a respirator mask with a chemical fume cartridge, or if you don't you will be losing some brain cells! After a couple or three coats of CPES, you could paint the Red Lead paint
(available from the George Kirby Paint Co. www.kirbypaint.com) (http://www.kirbypaint.com)) *** This is what I did with the bilge in a 1964 ply lapstreak boat and so far it has worked out well.

[outofthenorm]

100% what WoodBNut said. The CPES is expensive, but that's more or less exactly the job it was meant to do. After the clean up, put on lots of CPES, then let it cure for a week. Then put on one more coat, let it dry for 24-36 hours and paint with red lead. The paint will bond with the CPES and hold on like grim death.

Watch the fumes!

- Norm

[Bob Cleek]

Ditto to what WoodenBNut said, with one exception. I would NOT EVER heat CPES or any other epoxy. Heat not only increases the cure rate of epoxy, but also cooks off the solvents. CPES has a high solvent content which serves to accellerate penetration into the wood fibres. Heating it will defeat some of its penetrating ability and likely thicken it. Heating any uncured epoxy is also dangerous. Epoxy is subject to exothermic reaction. What happens is a sort of "chain reaction." Epoxy gives off heat when it chemically cures. Heat accellerates the speed of the cure, thereby increasing the heat and so on. Depending on the mass of the mix involved, you can easily have a batch of epoxy "cook off" in the can and start a fire, not to mention the loss of the expensive material.

Not to gloat at another's misfortune at all, but I do wish that those who believe that slathering epoxy and glass all over plywood is a good way to build a wooden boat would learn something from the problems that you are having. Good luck with your project!

[WoodenBNut]

Woops!! Yes, I agree with what Bob is saying about the heating of epoxy/CPES. But, I was thinking of using CPES in the winter time, and I should have explained that if you are using the CPES in cooler temps, you should make sure that the temp of the wood/CPES mixture is a recommended mfg temp. ** If using the CPES cold hardner the suggested temp range is 28 to 65 F and warm hardener no lower than 50 F. By all means don't over warm the CPES, but make sure that you are in the mfg specs for temp. But, I have gotten away with using my CPES "warm" hardener in 30 to 40F environment by warming the immediate area and making sure the CPES mixture was above 50F. But, you have got to keep the affected area at recommended mfg temp specs until it cures. I used an electric heater. But, you gotta be real careful about this type of heating.
Nuf said

[emichaels]

Dont know if anyone else is having this problem but I tred the link for Kirby and it didn't seem to work. Anyone else ???

[WoodenBNut]

The Kirby link is www.kirbypaint.com (http://www.kirbypaint.com) I just tried it and it seems to work fine. Try it again

[Shan]

Thanks guys...
A few more details though...

sdowney 717
"on the ply layers which have eroded away, I would patch them with a mixture of epoxy and a fiberous filler. Dry the wood where the filler patches would go"

QUESTION: What sort of Fiberous filler should I use? Excuse my ignorance on this - still new to a lot of this epoxy stuff....

"Dont try to remove anymore well stuck epoxy. Treat the remaining exposed sound wood with a preservative"

QUESTION: If the ply is wet underneath this epoxy - should I still leave it?

FYI - I scrub this epoxy with a wire brush - it stays on. If I explore a little further by careful use of a chisel - it comes off to show dark/damp wood beneath.

I should not be leaving that should I?

CPES QUESTION: After painstakingly removing epoxy from the bilge and other areas of the boat - all epoxy it appears to have done is trapped moisture in the wood.

I am loath to re-apply something like that.

Unless I can be perfectly certain I have removed ALL possible moisture from the wood, should I even be applying any epoxy (CPES) at all?

Fibreglass outside and epoxy inside - I can't shake the feeling that this may not be the best way.

Trapping the ply between two such impervious layers seems like the wrong thing to do, particularly with the boat history.

FYI - suspect this yacht had freshwater lying in the bottom of it for months. Not just a little bit, but a LOT. The damaged wood (although not really bad) is not just in the bilge, but appears higher on the inside of the hull as well (indicating a significant freshwater level inside the hull).

I don't know if this info changes any of the opinions stated, but the wood had a LOT of time to soak in moisture. I understand ply is good in that the glue layers prevent some of this from happening, but in the same token, any moisture that DID break that glue barrier is going to take TWICE as long to dry (maybe longer?).
The thought of trapping moisture behind it scares me somewhat.

Even waiting a couple of months as WoodBnut says, I can't be certain all moisture has been removed can I?

I am obviously hesitant to re-apply epoxy, however I AM listening to what you guys are saying! I just want to make sure epoxy is REALLY the best way to go. If it is, I will do it.

Thanks again!

[ 11-13-2005, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Shan ]

[Thorne]

Check out the Smith & Co. website -- they seem to have developed CPES, and of course push it to all and sundry.

http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/index.html

But this and other of their products seem to be popular in Scandanavia, both for restoring boats with some rot and for keeping rot out of others.

I'm no boatbuilder, so this is just a personal opinion. But the main alternative to replacing plywood seems to be soaking it in CPES. Not necessarily coating it with hard shiny surface epoxy, but instead penetrating the wood with CPES which soaks in along the fibers in the same way water would penetrate it.

[ 11-13-2005, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[Shan]

Re: CPES.

I do understand that this stuff soaks in, but the contruction of PLY means it has layers of glue to get through. Since the ply on my boat was so long underwater - I cannot be sure how many layers (if any) water got through.

Obviously CPES soaks in and sets, but will the first application reach down into the ply as far as the water has? It will have less time to penetrate. Once it cures, will it lock in any potential moisture if that first application did not penetrate deep enough?

[ 11-14-2005, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Shan ]

[Gary E]

FYI - suspect this yacht had freshwater lying in the bottom of it for months. Not just a little bit, but a LOT. The damaged wood (although not really bad) is not just in the bilge, but appears higher on the inside of the hull as well (indicating a significant freshwater level inside the hull).

I don't know if this info changes any of the opinions stated, but the wood had a LOT of time to soak in moisture. I understand ply is good in that the glue layers prevent some of this from happening, but in the same token, any moisture that DID break that glue barrier is going to take TWICE as long to dry (maybe longer?).
I believe you are correct in the assumption that the drying time will be long. VERY LONG.

CPES is an epoxy, a thin one but still epoxy, it does not mix with water and will not absorb the water in the wood. Therefore when you coat the wood that you see as dry it will trap the deeper wet wood and prevent that moisture from escaping, and then your hiding the problem only to have it surface in the future as a much worse problem.

In my opinion, and since I cant see what you see, you must clear away all wood that comes off easy since it's not adding any strength to the hull and let the remaining wood dry for a long time, how long? how long does it take to dry a fresh cut tree? months years? Some say that soaking the wood with alcohol or acetone will absorb the water and then evaporate taking the water with it.

Begining to sound like it might be faster to replace the wood.

Ever hear about putting lipstick on a pig?... ya still have a pig.

Good luck

[ 11-14-2005, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Lew Barrett]

A perfectly satisfactory way to deal with painting the bilges is to use acrylic (latex) paint in the color of your choice. This has good filling properties and will neaten up the appearance of your bilges while providing the sealer coat you require. It's a very standard treatment, been used for years and will give you the results you are looking for. It's almost impossible to dry out the bilges of a boat kept in the water, but as acrylic paints are water based, it won't be an issue for you. Easily touched up, too. A good application for this product on a wooden boat.