Can the price for this 11 foot rowboat be right? [Archive]

Thermo

06-07-2008, 03:53 PM

rbgarr

06-07-2008, 04:07 PM

How long would it take you to build it? How long would it take a professional to build it? How much a week do you think a professional "deserves."

I would think a good builder should complete it in three, maybe four weeks.

Jock Williams' company builds fiberglass lobster yachts for the most part. http://www.stanleyboats.com/ This has to be a sideline for them.

Given the price of the 9 footer, I thought that the listing was a typo and would probably be more like $10,500. A friend paid $8000 for a (new) bright Shew and Burnham 12 footer three years ago, and they have much less overhead than Williams.

pcford

06-07-2008, 04:09 PM

Well, if the plans fee is $100
And if the materials cost $2000
(Guesses)
That leaves only $16,400 for labor on the 11' boat

So, making 2 of these boats per year would put you over the poverty line for a 7-person family.

If the boat takes 200 hours to make, that's $82 per hour, or $3280 per week to make 11-foot boats.

Not too many small boat builders around, so it's hard to make comparisons. Not sure how much Eric Hvalsoe gets for his boats. However, a few months ago I was up in Vancouver, BC on Granville Island. There is a small boat builder there. Can't remember if he offered a small boat like this...however, if I recall correctly, boats not a heck of a lot bigger were in this price range.

Oh, and you might note that even for a small shop there is, nonetheless, a little thing called shop overhead. Shop rents in Seattle are really horrifying. And last time I looked they don't give decent tools away.

Off the top of my head, yes, I think the number is fat. On the other hand I don't think it is high by a factor of several times.

It's just my prejudice that skilled craftsmen deserve to make a living. Many people, including you evidently, disagree.

And that's why boats are made of plastic.

Oh....and before someone mentions it, I am quite aware that the boat could be much, much cheaper if it were the product of a completely jigged up building process.

If you think this is an easy way to make a buck, I encourage you to try it.

RonW

06-07-2008, 04:10 PM

That's cheap...you haven't seen nothing yet....
try and believe this one.....

http://www.antiqueboat.com/boats/MoreInfo.asp?SKU=hame17

Brian Palmer

06-07-2008, 04:26 PM

That's cheap...you haven't seen nothing yet....
try and believe this one.....

http://www.antiqueboat.com/boats/MoreInfo.asp?SKU=hame17

They are using their spoon bladed oars backwards.

Brian

Bob Cleek

06-07-2008, 04:32 PM

Well, he IS in Maine and he may be aiming at the Canadian buyers. LOL Yes, it seems high, but figuring for dickering room, I don't think it is over the top. This isn't some garage built plywood box or some strip planker's wet dream. It's a designed and built "Spurling" with some cachet and it is a properly built traditional carvel planked round bottomed hull with a nice bit of tumblehome. Boats like that don't just pop out of a fibreglass mold. People who have the money know the difference. I doubt it's the first one he's tried to sell and it won't be the last.

Now, you can all go back to your epoxy pots...

rbgarr

06-07-2008, 04:36 PM

They are using their spoon bladed oars backwards.

Brian

I think they were backing down to stay still for the photographer... but who knows?

Nanoose

06-07-2008, 04:46 PM

Look who's selling it! Commission!! :eek: ;)

The Bigfella

06-07-2008, 06:10 PM

Well, if the US dollar keeps going south on its Antartic expedition, $18,500 will be about $5.00 Oz, so it isn't that bad a price.

Doug Wood

06-07-2008, 07:23 PM

This is why Jock can spend the winter months in Hawaii. ;)

JimConlin

06-07-2008, 07:37 PM

I recollect that in that neighborhood, Spurling boats were well respected and that there are a couple of pix of Arthur Spurling boats in the John Gardner books.

Tar Devil

06-07-2008, 07:47 PM

http://www.woodsongcanoes.com/images/detaila1opt.jpg

http://www.woodsongcanoes.com/images/boat3a1opt.jpg

http://www.woodsongcanoes.com/images/bowa1opt.jpg

http://www.woodsongcanoes.com/images/seat4aopt.jpg

Would you like one? Can't find a price list, but here's what the website says about reserving your canoe...

Deposit

To guarantee our current prices and reserve a place on our waiting list, we require a nonrefundable deposit on both paddles and canoes. $150.00 is required as a paddle commission deposit. The deposit for canoes can vary. $10,000 is required for our mahogany or cedar Standard Premium canoes, while $15,000, $20,000 or $25,000 is required for our Limited Edition series. The remaining balance is divided into 5 equal draw payments scheduled to be paid during construction, with the final draw due at the time of delivery.

When will you get it?

Delivery

As with all fine art, fashioned by the hands of the finest artist, the demand for our canoes and paddles far surpasses our production capabilities. Often our waiting list is long; filled by clients who understand that our kind of work is the kind worth waiting for. Every canoe and paddle is individually crafted in an atmosphere where schedules and deadlines are not allowed to interfere with quality. Sometimes this results in our work taking longer to complete than estimated. Our policy is to never guarantee a completion date, as this would adversely affect the quality of our work. Actual hands on building time for our best paddle can exceed 40 hours. Our canoes, however, command much more time, consuming anywhere from 1,100 hours for a mahogany solo and up to 2,000 hours for a Limited Edition tandem made of ebony.

rbgarr

06-07-2008, 10:14 PM

Anyone know what Brooklin Boatyard sells the Jim Steele peapod for?

S B

06-07-2008, 10:28 PM

Lew Barrett

06-08-2008, 12:44 AM

They're all very nice, although none but the first are anything I can use. I would reckon a Hvalsoe pulling boat in the 10 foot range at something around $8,000 or 9,000 so the price for the smaller of the two is in line, although I have to say I like the Hvalsoe's lines better, though that's probably not worth much towards the price. The larger boat seems a bit expensive considering there's no rig to go with it. I think the Hvalsoes are roughly $1000 a foot, putting his 15 foot boat, which is as nice a small boat as a guy might want at about $15000, but I don't know exactly what he charges for them. The larger boat in that photo seems to me to be over the money by about $8000.

The other two boats are very nice art pieces, but look like troublesome boats to me. Art, I suppose, is worth whatever someone will pay for it. The second, the canoe, feels almost like a scam, pretty though it may be, with $10,000 to $25,000 down payments and three presumably hefty progess payments. It would be chewed up and spit out in use around here; so the most use one could get out of it might be paddling on a small pond with extreme care. Not the kind of use I have for a boat.

boylesboats

06-08-2008, 01:15 AM

http://tinyurl.com/4956zq

Wow, if that person get that kind of deal up there on a 11 foot boat.. I ought to move there and start a business..

But, for $18,000 I would check with Catboat Association for a nice catboat, and build me a stripper skiff about like that for less than thousand..Using my own plans

Tom Hunter

06-08-2008, 08:18 AM

Up in that area there are people who can drop a five figure sum and not even notice. I think he is fishing a bit, but maybe he will get a bite?

Everything shown in this thread is a luxury good, a lot of the value is in status.

Also think about all the beautiful wooden yachts with a zodiac astern. If I had the money for something really nice, I would want a tender that went with it.

Tar Devil

06-08-2008, 10:09 AM

The other two boats are very nice art pieces, but look like troublesome boats to me.

My understanding is many of these boats never see water... just a corporate reception area.

Eric Hvalsoe

06-08-2008, 11:55 AM

I was all set to be just steamed at the tone of this thread, then I looked at the Spurling link. That is a, ahem, a healthy price. Seems not to even include a sailing rig. The builder has balls to ask that much - if successful more power to him. The price might also be driven up by some sort of broker deal. If charging at full bore shop rate, for a one-off including lofting and patternmaking . . .

My shop rate is between $50 and $60 dollars an hour. That is what I charge for repair work, strictly time and materials. Hard work, but not a bad way to make a living. I'm not making that rate with new construction and building pretty lapstrake boats. Maybe that is a deficiency in my a ambition, machismo, foresight, and planning, or maybe it's just ok.
Neither am I a hobbyist - my boats are not inexpensive, and the price continues to climb, as it should. A Hvalsoe 16 package with sailing rig and oars is priced between $22,000 and $24,000, possibly including a customized trailer. The quality, as the brochure would say, speaks for itself - if you have not built a boat like this you can hardly imagine how the details stretch the process out. It is unfortunate that many people who have the sensibility to enjoy such a lovely boat cannot afford one. I wish it were otherwise. However, I chose not to compromise on the detail and quality that goes into the product and my time is not subsidized. The way I build my boats is just the way I am wired. At least with the Hvalsoe 13 and 16 I can strive for some modicum of efficiency given the number of hulls built and the extent of my patterns. I call it beating the 'whitehall syndrome'. A thirsty, or just curious, rookie boatbuilder builds a one-off for cents on the dollar - hey, I was once one of those.

Speaking of one-offs, we are close to being finished on the Atkin tender Vintage. I gave a bid for labor on building the boat, no finish work, client pays directly for materials. This boat has a daggarboard and spritsail. And of course it took longer than I expected, with unforseen hiccups and headaches. Certainly not shop rate. Not exactly complaining - the client is a fine gentleman who has done everthing he can to pitch in and help the process along. Were this project charged at shop rate and encompassed a finished boat including cost of materials and sailing rig we could well be in the neighborhood of the Spurling boat.

Point of order - SPURLING is one of the builders immortalized in some of John Gardners work, is there some relationship between this Spurling and that Spurling? seems unlikely.

rbgarr

06-08-2008, 12:36 PM

I would think a good builder should complete it in three, maybe four weeks.

Eric,

As you mention the Spurling shown is a straight rowing boat, carvel planking, 1/2" cedar if it's like the old ones, not very complicated details. Does my time estimate seem reasonable to you?

Spurlings are considered very nice boats up that way on Mount Desert Island, so I think the builder chose his design wisely.

pcford

06-08-2008, 01:08 PM

Eric,

As you mention the Spurling shown is a straight rowing boat, carvel planking, 1/2" cedar if it's like the old ones, not very complicated details. Does my time estimate seem reasonable to you?

Spurlings are considered very nice boats up that way on Mount Desert Island, so I think the builder chose his design wisely.

There is a saying in Spanish or French to the effect that someone "has no ears." We have a good example of that here.

This poster is so anxious to prove his prejudice that he can't hear or understand that the answer to his question has already been given.

Paul Girouard

06-08-2008, 01:37 PM

I agree with Eric and PC on this one. Things of that nature take time , time is money. Blue collar workers that have a trade / craft / should make enought money on thier labor / products to earn a decent living.

Like Eric said and I wholeheartedly agree that level of work just doesn't "fall together" by random chance.

It may be a little high BUT many things may have driven the price.

YMMV , Use no hooks , Void where prohibited by law , etc , etc.

Nice post Eric , you to Pat!

rbgarr

06-08-2008, 01:48 PM

There is a saying in Spanish or French to the effect that someone "has no ears." We have a good example of that here.

This poster is so anxious to prove his prejudice that he can't hear or understand that the answer to his question has already been given.

PC,

You were the one who asked how long it would take a 'professional' to build a boat of this size and complexity. I offered a suggested length of time, which I hoped you'd respond to. You didn't. Eric posted and I thought I'd ask him. I'm genuinely interested to know what a good boatbuilder would think is a reasonable time for building this boat.

You're reading too much into my posts, I think. I care less about the asking price than I do about how much time it would take a workman to build it. If it takes three months to build, it's one thing. Less, another.

George Roberts

06-08-2008, 02:00 PM

"I would think a good builder should complete it in three, maybe four weeks."

The boat is certainly less than 4 weeks work. In a decent shop 2 people could build 4 of them in 4 weeks. There is a lot of economy of scale when you can remove the waiting and set up time.

pcford

06-08-2008, 02:30 PM

PC,

You were the one who asked how long it would take a 'professional' to build a boat of this size and complexity. I offered a suggested length of time, which I hoped you'd respond to. You didn't. Eric posted and I thought I'd ask him. I'm genuinely interested to know what a good boatbuilder would think is a reasonable time for building this boat.

You're reading too much into my posts, I think. I care less about the asking price than I do about how much time it would take a workman to build it. If it takes three months to build, it's one thing. Less, another.

Again, that question has been answered by me, Eric and Lew. The first two are professional marine carpenters, the last is a very knowledgeable amateaur. But I will try again and make things more explicit for you.

I think is fair to characterize all three of us agreeing that the price is high....but to put words in the others' mouths...I think it is possible that we might agree that 2/3rds of this price might be more reasonable. But.....the guy is selling the boat through a broker....maybe he is wanting to get his set-up time paid for....maybe he has a niche market in mind. And as Eric said, if he thinks he can get it, more power to him.

First, let's note that the term "build." is imprecise. I have heard that Dave LeClerq's shop on Lake Union built Bristol Bay boats in a day. Now, you have to understand that the boat was entirely patterned out with the pre-cut parts sitting on the shelf. All they had to do is fasten the backbone together steam in frames and hang planks. All done by a sizable crew.

That's a prefab build in a professional boatshop.

Now, let's consider the little boat under consideration. If we assume this is a custom build with lofting, setup, selecting lumber, building and finish work. You seem to assert that this could be done in three weeks. Well, let me say that you might have a vivid imagination but unfortunately you don't know much about the real world of this business. Or maybe you think that boatwrights make three or four thousand dollars a week. I can assure you this is not true.

Finally, I have to say that it is truly sad that in this place...a venue which is supposed to celebrate wooden boats that there seems...at least among a few people...so little understanding of what it takes to make a living at this craft.

rbgarr

06-08-2008, 03:07 PM

Well, I'm stumped. I still don't see where in previous posts anyone estimated how much time it would take to build the boat shown in the picture. (correction: I see George had an opinion) And I repeat, I don't care about what the price is.

I've built a few lapstrake wooden boats (peapods and others) of the size shown and the best I could do was six weeks even with a jig to build them on and some patterns for stems and some other pieces. I didn't think I could make a living even at that speed, assuming I could sell enough to keep me busy.

I thought it would have to be done in three or four week's time at worst. Jim Steele had complete jigs and patterns for his standard peapod and IIRC he could build them in two weeks.

I hope Steve Spurling can sell the boats. I've admired them since I first saw one thirty years ago.

pcford

06-08-2008, 03:12 PM

Well, I'm stumped. I still don't see where in previous posts anyone estimated how much time it would take to build the boat shown in the picture.

"No ears."

AngWood

06-08-2008, 05:27 PM

Gee, for $13,795 Canadian you could get a 26-foot Lunenburg Seine dory. Apples and oranges, I know.

psboatbuilder

06-08-2008, 05:27 PM

This is my 2d try at getting this in. If I remember correctly the small book about the building of the small Herreshoff skiff, with a jigged up shop, and a master craftsman who specialized in building that one boat, took 167 hours to build an unfinished skiff. I have been building proffessionally for ths last 17 years and from early childhood as an amateur. I built a Moosabec Reach Boat from Gardner's last book. It is a 14'3", cat ketch with two rowing stations. To loft, select materials, pick up materials, build the boat, masts, sprits, centerboard, tiller and rudder, modify trailer, paint and varnish took right at 800 hours. It is a shapely boat with a hollow at the bow and stern. It was a one off so ther were no jigs. If I were to do another as I did the first I could cut down the time some. With the cost of materials and shop overhead I would still have to charge $28,500 for the same boat finished at the same level. I know of another builder who has done the same boat as a strip plank and has been surprised by the time it took to build so I don't feel I am out of line with what I have done or would charge.

boylesboats

06-08-2008, 06:04 PM

I think they ought to check that price again and drop that extra zero

rbgarr

06-08-2008, 06:41 PM

If I remember correctly the small book about the building of the small Herreshoff skiff, with a jigged up shop, and a master craftsman who specialized in building that one boat, took 167 hours to build an unfinished skiff.

If you're talking about the Charlie Sylvester account for the Herreshoff Columbia dinghy (10 1/2') it was 130 hours, which included nine hours for the molded sheerstrakes, nine for the centerboard box, nine for the centerboard and rudder, and one and a half for the spars. I may not be reading the sheet right, however, especially on that last item.

psboatbuilder

06-08-2008, 07:22 PM

Thanks. I believe you're correct. I own the book but can't seem to find it right now. I should have kept on to say that it does seem high for that skiff as it is a fairly simple shape with no reverse curves. I guess I'd have to see the plans to estimate the construction time (and then double it).
Allowing for ego.

Yeadon

06-08-2008, 08:22 PM

Just from wandering by Eric's shop now and again to waste his time and drink his beer, I'd guess it takes Eric about 11 to 15 weeks to finish a boat, though he's usually working in a repair or two on other boats along the way. That's probably a conservative estimate.

He's a one man shop, has no assistants, and seems to prefer the control that he can have over the quality of his work. If he had an assistant, he could probably turn them out a bit quicker. He'd also have to share control of his stereo. That might work for a day or two, but then Eric would demand the radio be returned to progressive talk radio.

ps - Lew, you need to get a sail rig for your hvalsoe. Sometime, just for kicks, go down to CWB and take their HV13 out for a sail. That's a great boat.

goodbasil

06-08-2008, 08:31 PM

The seller will price high because he can go down but not up.
Also, if he owns a gas guzzler SUV, he needs money.

pcford

06-08-2008, 11:13 PM

He's a one man shop, has no assistants, and seems to prefer the control that he can have over the quality of his work. If he had an assistant, he could probably turn them out a bit quicker. He'd also have to share control of his stereo. That might work for a day or two, but then Eric would demand the radio be returned to progressive talk radio.

An important consideration. I shared my space some time ago with a guy who was a baseball fan. He would listen to all of the Mariner games on the radio. As you know, baseball games commonly last 8 to 10 hours. 16 is not unheard of. Now, if there is a more boring thing to listen to, I would not know what it is. Subsequent to that, when anyone came in to share the shop to work on their projects, I had a clause in the contract that I had sole control of radio.

Having to listen to crap while you work is a true misery.

Thermo

06-08-2008, 11:17 PM

An important consideration. I shared my space some time ago with a guy who was a baseball fan. He would listen to all of the Mariner games on the radio. As you know, baseball games commonly last 8 to 10 hours. 16 is not unheard of. Now, if there is a more boring thing to listen to, I would not know what it is. Subsequent to that, when anyone came in to share the shop to work on their projects, I had a clause in the contract that I had sole control of radio.

Having to listen to crap while you work is a true misery.

I listened to the book-on-tape of Jubal Sackett by Loius Llamour when building my last boat, over and over again. I'll probably pick some different books next time. :)

pcford

06-08-2008, 11:22 PM

I listened to the book-on-tape of Jubal Sackett by Loius Llamour when building my last boat, over and over again. I'll probably pick some different books next time. :)

My grandfather read every Louis Lamour book ever published. Probably had to wait for the author to finish writing a volume.

When you work alone, doing repetitive tasks, it's good to have you mind engaged on something.

Kasey

06-08-2008, 11:59 PM

My grandfather read every Louis Lamour book ever published. Probably had to wait for the author to finish writing a volume.

My stepfather read those things like they were going out of style. I read them, too, when I didn't have any Harlequin romances - the thing was, I read much faster than he did - so he would hide them from me until he had finished reading them!

I love me some Sacketts!

Thermo

06-09-2008, 12:08 AM

I like Jubal Sackett in particular because it's not a 'cowboy' western, it's set a few generations earlier. It's a road movie through the new world from the eyes of a second-generation English settler.

It's similar to another of his books I really liked, in which a Native-American born Air-force pilot crashes his Cold War spy-plane in the middle of the USSR, and has to sneak his way across Siberia and cross the Bering strait in a canoe to get to safety.

Lew Barrett

06-09-2008, 12:38 AM

Yeadon, we have to get together one of these days, we really do.

I'd love to have a rig for that boat. I was down at the Center yesterday and they had the 13 footer out in the pond. She looked great in the water. It was tempting to take her out for a row, but mine's starting to come along now. The hardware is all organized, the boat is sanded for paint, the interior is ready to put back in, but I do have to fill the dings and various holes (there are a bazillion of them) get the paint and varnish on. She's really close if only the weather would cooperate and I weren't so damn busy.

I'd love to sail her. Eric and I discussed that, but I think I'd have to do some sort of leeboard or the like as she was never set up for sail originally, and anyway, she was an impulse purchase. So I'll get her ready to row and take it from there; keep my eyes peeled for bits and such. Rowing her will be lovely in any case. By the way, I think the Center's boat is for oar only, unless they two of them, one having the rig. I hope mine tows well; she doesn't fit on deck, just a tiny bit too long. That really bums me out, but they didn't have a ten footer available on Craig's List the day I got her. She's great fun to work on. I'd take her everywhere but towing her in four foot following seas doesn't sound too fun, while doing it in head seas sounds even worse. You'd really like to get a boat like that out of the water on the long transits; one less thing to worry about. She just may be my own little lake boat for lazy days, in which case a rig would be....nice!

Yeadon

06-09-2008, 01:04 AM

I love me some Sacketts!

I read Hondo when I was about 14. Loved it. Lamour has such a great tone.

Yeadon, we have to get together one of these days, we really do.

Lew, Big Food and I'll be at the CWB festival in a few weeks. I'd love to get a tour of Rita. Also, first round in the beer garden is on me.

Oh, and the center only has one HV13. The sprit rig is on the racks next to the shop. (If you unfurl it, you'll see that it says "HV13" on the sail.) The rudder is on a set of gudgeons back behind the shop. To sail it, you pretty much have to round up the rig yourself, move it out from under the footbridge and onto the main dock, and step the mast yourself.

Eric Hvalsoe

06-09-2008, 10:33 AM

I'd love to sail her. Eric and I discussed that, but I think I'd have to do some sort of leeboard or the like as she was never set up for sail . . .

Lew,
We can retrofit your 13 with a centerboard trunk, and a mast step. It is a bit of work but entirely possible. It's ok if you don't care about sailing, you are just missing half the fun. To sail the CWB 13 you should be sail checked with the staff, or collar myself or Yeadon to get out there.

No point in getting too specific with this time business on the Spurling, that is what clients are for. Are you asking for apples or oranges? Did somebody suggest 3 or 4 weeks - finished from a new loft? Not in my time dimension. Other more useful suggestions. There are complicated little boats, and there are really complicated little boats (Vintage), starting with the backbone. A planked and framed hull can be less than half of the work, certainly with a rig, of the finished product, at least the way I finish 'em. A week anyway lofting a strange little boat with deductions and projections, a couple weeks making patterns and backbone parts, how many parts - one bacbone could nearly twice as complex as another. Get that spine up over the molds - how many molds - how do they fair out. Line it off - you gonna stick with nine like the plans show or go for 10 strakes . . . planking, ok, one and a half or two man weeks, if you are competent and no wheels fall off. Lapstrake you put the time into beveling laps as you plank up, carvel you might be working in shallow caulking seams, then you've got to fair the darn hull when it's all said and done. Framing - are you going to rivit or clench nail, or possibly screw for a carvel hull. Prefinish the interior - paint or oil - your not mad enough to varnish are you . . . risers, breasthook, knees, thwarts, gunwales. The more careful you are in finish sanding and coating the individual parts the longer they will hold up. The boat is repeatedly constructed and deconstructed. Are you going to just run floorboard screws into the ribs like a heathen, or are you going to carefully steam bend individual floorboard frames and spiled floorboard pieces to the shape of the boat . . . And when you get ready to paint the hull exterior are you going to fill and fair all those nail divits smooth as a baby's bottom?
How many parts are you going to varnish and what to mask off - well hopefully at least the transom and stem. How many coats of varnish and paint are you going to build up? Uh oh, thinking about bottom paint?
Grounding shoes, rub strips, stem bands . . . oarlock pads . . .
Oh, is there a sailing rig? (in which case you would have already spent a good chunk of time fabricating, prefinishing and installilng the trunk) . . .

Dave R

06-09-2008, 12:12 PM

I think that price includes the trailer.

pcford

06-09-2008, 12:44 PM

I think that price includes the trailer.

Hey Dave R, what's that sketch for your avatar? A sailing canoe?

Dave R

06-09-2008, 12:50 PM

Yeah, I guess. It was just a clip art image I found doing a Google image search. I thought it was kind of neat.

Dave R

06-09-2008, 12:54 PM

Hey Dave R, what's that sketch for your avatar? A sailing canoe?

I found the link for it. http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/6000/6020/sailboat_1.htm

http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/6000/6020/sailboat_1_md.gif

I guess it is a sailing canoe.

pcford

06-09-2008, 12:58 PM

Definitely a sailing canoe. Thanks

rbgarr

06-09-2008, 04:26 PM

LOL. Now there are two different boats shown on the 'Spurling site': http://tinyurl.com/4r797u

pcford

06-09-2008, 04:32 PM

One of the strangest phenomena that I have encountered in the wacky world of boatbuilding occurs when those that don't know how to do something will nonetheless presume to tell you how much it should cost.

Saltiguy

06-09-2008, 05:51 PM

When I first moved to Florida I set up shop to build wooden kayaks. My design was hard chine, okome, 17 foot. Fast, light and beautiful and finished to perfection. I set up a nice web site, and built 4 boats to exhibit at kayak shows along the Florida west coast. People would ohh and ahh about the boats. They would salivate over the beauty and the compliments were endless. If compliments and praise were money, I'd be a millionaire, but the reality was that it took me 2 years to sell those 4 boats. My price? A very affordable $1400. ea. -a bargain in my book, but the buyers just were not there. I'd sit in shows and watch people spend a bunch on heavy slow tupperware kayaks. Finally, I couldn't stand it any more - I was so frustrated at the ignorance that I gave it up.

Thermo

06-09-2008, 07:13 PM

I think the problem here is when 99% of people think of an $18,500 purchase, they don't quite think "really nice 11' dink."
They're probably recalling all the nice boats they've seen for the same price:

http://images.craigslist.org/011507010205011602200805181e0a7374f9899eae1b000a58 .jpg
2001 challenger sea doo boat - 20 foot. excellent condition. eight passenger, bimimi top, life jackets (4), am/fm/cd radio. custom nose cover, travel/storage cover. trailer included. $18,500.00 (negotiable)

http://boatstore.floridasportsman.com/i/o/f/1209926798.jpg
REDUCED AGAIN: Fully rigged, ready to fish. Boat, trailer, custom cover. Asking $15,500. In great shape!! Yamaha 115 Fourstroke with ~350 hours! (Was $18,500, but no buyers.)

JFK's very own Star (no picture)
MONTICELLO, Fla. -- When John F. Kennedy raced sailboats as a teen-ager off Cape Cod, one of his prized boats was a Star Class sloop named Flash II.
The future president skippered the sleek 22-footer to an Atlantic Coast Championship in 1936 as a 19-year-old member of the Nantucket Sound Star Fleet.
Six decades later, its mast broken and its white paint weathered, the boat brought $18,500 at auction yesterday at a Florida Panhandle farm.

http://images.craigslist.org/010109011506010208200805240aec45f09cad4715b600221b .jpghttp://images.craigslist.org/010110011506010206200805240b961d031a8241425a0079da .jpg

1968 Columbia 36 foot sailboat. Registered to 2009. Fresh water cooled Yanmar Diesel engine with 40 gal tank , 70 gal fresh water storage, tiller steering, gps, vhf radio, anchor with plenty of rode, refrigerator/freezer, propane stove with oven, sleeps 6, head/shower with holding tank, bottom recently painted. In Eureka. $18,500

http://kijiji.ebayimg.com/i15/01/k/000/79/dc/5447_18.JPG?set_id=1C4000
1981 30ft. Kirby sailboat by Mirage Yachts Asking $18,500

1981 Contessa 26 (http://www.sailingtexas.com/scontessa26b.html), Greenwich, Connecticut, $17,000 (no pic)

http://www.sailingtexas.com/piccontessa26100a.jpg
1974 Contessa 26 $15,500

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/sailimg/5566/3-Original.gif
Bruce Roberts 34 $17,000

rbgarr

06-09-2008, 08:39 PM

Some 2004 news about that Star owned by JFK: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/10/14/agents_seize_jfks_old_sailboat/

Lew Barrett

06-09-2008, 11:40 PM

I think I have learned from this thread that the real question would be: "Is this the 11 foot boat you would commission to have built," not "can an 11 foot boat with trailer command 18,000 dollars."
Using the math we have been provided, the cost of shop labor to build this (assuming 130 hours for an unfinished boat) at $55 an hour would be $7150. That would leave roughly $11,000 for the trailer, materials and the finish. I'd estimate labor to finish from a boat sanded to take paint and varnish at about 50 hours, or roughly $3000. That's a very generous 20 hours to prime and put two top coats on, and a realistic additional 30 hours to either oil or prime and paint the interior; and varnish out a few small trim pieces, plus or minus.

So that leaves roughly $8000 for materials and the trailer. I bought my EZ 14 trailer years ago for about $400, new. I don't know what they cost now, but let's say they are $800, and would require some modifications for this boat. Call it $1000 all up, then that leaves $7000 for materials. Is red cedar that expensive?
Using these numbers I find it within the pale to to say: "custom built and finished 11 foot pulling boat with trailer, painted your choice of colors $12,000." And I would be able to reasonably justify this as a good deal taking all into account. If one could build it faster, by all means, they should, but I couldn't do it.

But I'd call Eric first to see what he was getting for such a boat:D Makes me feel so smug about my own...what a bargain used wooden boats are!

boylesboats

06-09-2008, 11:51 PM

Tom Lathrop

06-10-2008, 09:13 AM

I think it's a good thing for boatbuilders to get such prices if they can. It raises the market for everybody, even if they don't or can't build such artworks as Philip Greene does with Woodsong. I meet him often at wooden boat shows and he usually sells something while most other builders do not. I should have bought one of his paddles when they were only a couple hundred bucks.

I doubt that many of his canoes have ever been wet. I know of some that are mounted above huge fireplaces in dens and hunting cabins. Most of the time when I see other builder's boats, I can say "I could do that just as well". Not so, with Philip"s canoes or paddles. On the other hand, I can, and do, build boats that are better as boats than his. I often see flaws in the lines and structure of these boats.

Philip used to be in the submarine Navy out of Charleston. He gradually was able to move into boatbuilding full time and resigned from the USN. Now, he is "in tall cotton", as we say down here. Being in tall cotton means that you don't have to stoop so much to pick the cotton. It's a lost phrase since all cotton is picked by machine these days and the plants are hybridized to be low to the ground.

Maybe we are being a little jealous of the success of these guys.

Lew Barrett

06-10-2008, 03:48 PM

There is not way.... That 11 footer goes for that much..

Seriously, I got a plan that I drew up for 15 foot strip-planked skiff,
with my estimate total with my labor, materials, minus the trailer is about $2,500... and that WRC on steamed WO frames.. My labor is cheap...

Look at it this way Larry. It's not how cheaply you can build it. It's how much you need to charge to build it and make a living. If you don't count your labor for much, then of course, the bill of materials is all that really matters. I agree with Tom though. While I think the boat David brought us as an illustration is over the money, I don't think the general math involved is that out of line. The $55 per hour figure has to cover shop overhead too, as Pat pointed out. Rent around here for a decent working space would easily exceed $12 a foot. Just as an example, if you need a double garage sized spot to build in, and that's minimal, you can figure 500 bucks just for rent on a four week build. Heat and power add to that. A home builder probably won't factor that, but a pro must. Of course, many won't see it that way, or have cheaper spaces, but you get the point.

In general, wooden boats are way undervalued in the market....good deals for the customer. The more value people se in them, the better for us as hobbyist/enthusiasts. After all, we don't have to count our labor as part of the equation; it's all fun and games for us.

Wild Wassa

06-10-2008, 05:25 PM

"My shop rate is between $50 and $60 dollars an hour." - Eric H.

The going rate here is between $125-160 an hour which is about $145US an hour, at the top end, which is the only end.

I'm taking a break from work for a while, I finished last week and some of the clients are not that happy because they are looking at the $160 rate all around town, after getting quotes.

They could have organized fixes before I left last week. As far as I'm concerned $145US an hour is a touch over the top, I know what it all costs, keeping the doors open. We don't pay only $4.25 US a gal for fuel, like you lucky drivers do even then a $160 an hour here is price gouging because there is so much work here to do and only a few to do it.

It is a captive audience here and the boat shops know it. There is only one fully dedicated wooden boat shop here, they have a good reputation, one dedicated offshore shop, one dedicated powerboat shop, one shop that has a go at everything (but has a patchy reputation) and the two free lance workers and we are both having a break. There is so much boat work, just repairing race damage here, it is extraordinary. It is good to be having a break from it at last.

I've got a boat to work on, so I'll keep my hand in a day or two a month, so I don't lose the feel and return to the game twice as fresh at the end of next January. There is nothing at all glamerous about working on boats, it is just sheer sustained hard work.

Warren.

boylesboats

06-10-2008, 06:10 PM

Look at it this way Larry. It's not how cheaply you can build it. It's how much you need to charge to build it and make a living. If you don't count your labor for much, then of course, the bill of materials is all that really matters. I agree with Tom though. While I think the boat David brought us as an illustration is over the money, I don't think the general math involved is that out of line. The $55 per hour figure has to cover shop overhead too, as Pat pointed out. Rent around here for a decent working space would easily exceed $12 a foot. Just as an example, if you need a double garage sized spot to build in, and that's minimal, you can figure 500 bucks just for rent on a four week build. Heat and power add to that. A home builder probably won't factor that, but a pro must. Of course, many won't see it that way, or have cheaper spaces, but you get the point.

In general, wooden boats are way undervalued in the market....good deals for the customer. The more value people se in them, the better for us as hobbyist/enthusiasts. After all, we don't have to count our labor as part of the equation; it's all fun and games for us.

That is very true, Lew...
I build my boats affordable so anyone can have a nice wooden boat.
I don't have a set hourly rate.. Since I am doing this just for fun, as a hobby..

It'll be a dream, if I grows into a larger company

George Roberts

06-10-2008, 06:35 PM

"Rent around here for a decent working space would easily exceed $12 a foot. Just as an example, if you need a double garage sized spot to build in, and that's minimal, you can figure 500 bucks just for rent on a four week build."

A large number of professionals build small boats out of their houses. They build larger boats outdoors under temporary shelter.

Lew Barrett

06-10-2008, 06:52 PM

In fact Eric works out of his house, but working under a tarp isn't even possible here. Maybe in Java. Not withstanding, does that mean his shop doesn't cost him anything? If I were running it as a business, I'd reckon that any space I used had a cost, because it does.

pcford

06-10-2008, 07:20 PM

That is very true, Lew...
I build my boats affordable so anyone can have a nice wooden boat.
I don't have a set hourly rate.. Since I am doing this just for fun, as a hobby..

Then perhaps you should not criticize the business practices of those that depend on building, restoration and repair for food on the table for their family.

George Roberts

06-10-2008, 10:09 PM

"Not withstanding, does that mean his shop doesn't cost him anything?"

It just means that renting space is not the best economic solution.

pcford

06-10-2008, 11:35 PM

The going rate here is between $125-160 an hour which is about $145US an hour, at the top end, which is the only end.

I'm taking a break from work for a while, I finished last week and some of the clients are not that happy because they are looking at the $160 rate all around town, after getting quotes.

That's real money. Almost make it worthwhile to learn the obscure argot that Dingo speaks. Here, I'll try:
"G'day mayte."

Topless beaches too.

boylesboats

06-10-2008, 11:43 PM

Then perhaps you should not criticize the business practices of those that depend on building, restoration and repair for food on the table for their family.

Huh? :confused:

Eric Hvalsoe

06-11-2008, 10:42 AM

Just want to say, I don't work out of a garage - I work out of the shop space attached to my home that I invested a lot of money to create.
OK, it used to be the smaller footprint of an attached garage. Tore the roof off, extended the footprint, created clear story space. It's pretty much my dream shop, just right for one person to roam around in with a little help once in a while.
http://hvalsoe-boats.com/
When the dust settles on Vintage I will have to look back at the process
and carefully consider what price I will quote for a 2nd hull, should I get an inquiry. There are many things I do in my life for recreation and enjoyment, at least when I am not consumed with finishing a project for a client. Boatbuilding, boatwork and various kinds of woodwork are my tradecraft. In taking the opportunity to build a jewel of a traditional small boat, I will perhaps weigh some considerations differently than in addressing repair work. But it is bloody well still a job and will be treated as such. We no longer have guilds in this country. It's a crap shoot.
Those that stay in business have shouldered the responsibility of being a professional tradesman, have succesfully dealt with a variety of clients,
have shown value for their work - and have shown the value of thier work to themselves and their families.