Lawley built..possible restoration candidate

[TimothyB]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about what to do next, and looked at a lot of boats that need work. Still doing that but this one spoke to me when I saw the pictures sent by the owner...

http://www.ennui.net/~timothy/Boats/Lawley

The images are links to the BIG sized ones, if you want to see all the nicks and scrapes. I haven't seen her in person yet, but I'm probably going to do that next weekend, or perhaps a bit sooner.

Any wisdom as to her heritage? She is listed as a 1938 Lawley built boat. I can't tell, but I think she is a sloop (no info on that yet). No info on her designer yet. No hull number. etc. I'll be getting more details soon, but I wanted to know if anyone knew something right off the bat on this one.

Thanks muchly!

EDIT TO ADD: Silly me.. I didn't realize the text document he sent me had two pages.. wow.. and me an IT Manager smile.gif

Here is the text:


The last owner abandoned it 10 years ago, leaving it with his sailing partner. His partner continued to sail it for 5 years, until he decided to take it out of the water for repairs. A divorce followed forcing him to sell the boat. That was 5 years ago, when I acquired it. It came with just a bill of sale and no title. My plans were to do the repairs and get it back in the water. However, my two daughters decided at that time to graduate and go to expensive colleges, dashing all my hopes of restoring this boat. At this point, I think it's in everyone's best interest to let someone else have her, as she's not doing anyone any good sitting in my back yard!
Restoration:
This is an old wooden Sloop needing a lot of work. As any wooden boat-owner will tell you, they constantly require attention, and this boat is no exception. The hull needs to be scraped, sanded, caulked, and painted. The stern needs repairs. The mast is laminated Sitka spruce, and needs repair at the entry point of the doghouse-roof. The decks are canvas covered, needing repair. The mahogany is in need of sanding and refinishing. As far as I am aware, the frames are all still good (upon inspection this October ), however, they should be inspected, as it's been a while since she's been in the water. If you are interested in a project boat, then this is a good project. The price is negotiable (sharpen your pencil and try me!)


[ 10-27-2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[TimothyB]

Spoke with the owner and he seemed lke a nice fella. Definitely likes wooden boats! With his daughters in college he is sailing a 20 footer weekender these days. smile.gif

Decks are canvas covered. They need renewal. The mast has some rot at the point where it met the step in the coachroof. He believes the frames are in order and in decent shape, as well as the keel and deadwood .. etc.

So, I'll go and take a peek and let you guys know what I see. If she is a deck job, repaint/caulk + cosmetics and a mast repair away from being in the water, I think she'd be worth the time.

By the way, she is a Lawley Weekender, designer is S&S.

[ 10-27-2005, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[Bob Cleek]

Lawley built = finestkind!

[Norske3]

Now how would you know that BOB C.?....living in a strange country like you do ? ... and using the word "finestkind" ..not even Webster used it.........reserved for New Englanders that...Maine specifically...AYUP... :D

A IT MAN?.....or a HIT MAN....and have you dug out my WB mag...Issue #2 yet......TIMOTHYB??

Is Ed Harrows boat a Lawley?....to lazy to check the posts.

[ 10-27-2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

[TimothyB]

Wow Norske3, you're a hard man.. smile.gif

Not yet. We'll be looking through those boxes once we put up some shelving, and then I'll know for sure if the issue was lost in our move. I sure hope it wasn't.

I'm an Information Technology Manager ;)

oof. good thing I meditate. Maybe thats why I am drawn to a boat prioject like this...

Phoenix is a Lawley Weekender, but the post has been purged. I did think she was, and Google confirmed it for me.

[ 10-27-2005, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[Norske3]

WHAT?!...PHOENIX PURGED!...off the face of the Forum?....WHY?

LOTTSA INFO GONE.

LAWLEY WEEKENDER.....identical model then?....except the rig perhaps.

OH...bye the way....did you get any WB mags at the bookstore?...Cambridge.

[ 10-27-2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

[TimothyB]

Haven't gotten to it yet.. haven't had the time! My masters have been laying the whip into with VVIP visits the past month. Lots of project planning going on.

Grr. I just want a lunchtime to myself...

anyhoo... anyone got any comments on the Lawley for me? smile.gif

[ 10-27-2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[Norske3]

Comment: Check out the WB mag site....article achives .......and if any ,I can print and send you copies from all mags you don't have.

And oh my....no time to eat...you must be very skinny by now then.

[ 10-27-2005, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

[Bob Cleek]

Well, Norske, Lawley, Herreshoff and Nevins were about the top US yacht builders in their day. I guess I've known about three Lawley boats. Not many in my neck of the woods, being on the left coast and all. One, I got to know quite intimately as she was berthed on my finger for a long while. A ~38' schooner. Was for sale cheap and probably still is. Owner had her forever and just got too old to keep up with her. Surveyed her a couple of times and studied the workmanship... the way their mechanics built her. Learned a bit from that boat, I did. Lawley didn't build junk. The boat has a pedigree.

[kc8pql]

A divorce followed forcing him to sell the boat. That was 5 years ago, when I acquired it. It came with just a bill of sale and no title. That part would bother me. Could be a big problem. May be worth checking out before going to far.

[Norske3]

HI BOB!...yeah I know you know your boats smile.gif .From what I have read they were "furniture"....fine furniture...did see a big beamy power sedan cruiser a few years back..about 45 feet ..total restoration..awesome.....the Capt( a medical doctor..big money man of course) is a member of the Lawley club on the East Coast.(I have a couple of dozen Yachting mags...1920's, 1930's with Lawley full page adds....great stuff)

Also old man McInnis worked there for a few years...another reason they were.."finest-kind"..(he designed my 26' Sportfisherman..1958 Maine built...the smallest power boat he did, I was told ).Ayup. smile.gif

I lived in your country for a couple of years...back in the early sixties....when there was far less smog in Southern Cal.....San Pedro had a good number of wood boats then....I don't miss the smog but oh do I miss that sunny weather.
We pay dearly for our nice New England Summers with looong Winters....not only do we suffer but we have to pay big bucks for the "priviledge" of living in the snow.. :mad: ..an this year will be worst of all if it stays very cold. :mad: :mad:

Have you ever been to New England Bob?

[ 10-27-2005, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by kc8pql:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> A divorce followed forcing him to sell the boat. That was 5 years ago, when I acquired it. It came with just a bill of sale and no title. That part would bother me. Could be a big problem. May be worth checking out before going to far.</font>[/QUOTE]Turns out they found the original owner and he will sign over title, no problem. I asked about this as well smile.gif

Thanks for the info .. I checked into the Lawley club and they have a great list of boats. I will be looking at her tonite. I'll have a name to match the boat, and I can find out which one on the list she is.

The current owner is a high school shop teacher! Told me he has a HUGE shop with BIG machines that he is happy to let/help me use to restore the boat. smile.gif smile.gif Another point in favor of the decision.

[Norske3]

We need a project to follow on this Forum...so now a shop is part of the deal!...not to far from Rockport either I hope....or is it in Rockport?....GOOOO TIMOTHYB! smile.gif

Ed Harrow's boat ....has he stopped work for now.I miss seeing Finbar. :(

[TimothyB]

No he is about 1 hour away from Rockport, but its mostly highway miles, so if I got me a pickup truck it would work out ok.

Thanks for the encouragement! We'll see if she happens out or not.. I am not about to make the same mistake I made LAST time. Eesh. As far as following the project, whenever I do, in fact, start a project, I intend on making up a website for it and updating her as often as I can. smile.gif

And thanks to The Cleek (tm) for his good words. That definitely works in this boat's favor!

As far as Ed is concerned, I don't know if he stopped work.. but he did stop contributing to the Forum due to some shenanigans in, I assume, the bilge.

[ 10-28-2005, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[pcford]

Now how would you know that BOB C.?....living in a strange country like you do ? ... and using the word "finestkind" ..not even Webster used it.........reserved for New Englanders that...Maine specifically...AYUP... [Big Grin] Funny. Yes, always wondered about that...people that feel they must use words New England dialect to be "boaty." Wooden boats were built in other areas. Guess they don't know that.

I am surprised that nobody has suggested that you have a survey done on the boat.

Consider these words very carefully:
A FREE BOAT CAN BE TOO EXPENSIVE.

It is impossible to make any judgment on the boat from pictures. And, of course, Lawley was one of best builders in the interwar period. However, a boat that has been hauled out and uncover for several years may have severe problems. Holes in the deck are a particular concern.

It's a no-win situation to counsel prudence in a case like this. It's like telling a guy that has a new girlfriend something like...."Hey, you should be careful with that Betty."

Nonetheless this is what should be done. This is a project which will probably take years of time and many thousands of dollars.

And good luck.

[preston]

Originally posted by pcford:
Yes, always wondered about that...people that feel they must use words New England dialect to be "boaty." We don't have too, of course, but it's fun.
We're having fun, remember :)
It's like Fleming saying "corking", 'cause that's the they said it around here.

Preston

[pcford]

quote:Originally posted by pcford:
Yes, always wondered about that...people that feel they must use words New England dialect to be "boaty."

We don't have too, of course, but it's fun.
We're having fun, remember :)
It's like Fleming saying "corking", 'cause that's the they said it around here. The salient difference is that Dave Fleming worked here. The guy that was using the New England dialect is from the San Francisco Bay area. Rather far from Maine. Rather precious. Ayup!

Don't mean to make the thread make the thread descend to triviality. It is important that the guy consider the Lawley project carefully. And it's important that others in a similar situation hesitate before they jump.

[TimothyB]

As 'the guy' I agree that I need to consider the project carefully smile.gif

I'm interested in it for sure, but if she requires major restoration before I can get her in the water, I'm not going to take her.

For me, major = keel replacement, more than 50% frames/floors replaced, entire deck needing to be ripped out and replaced. I don't think I'll have to worry about major plank replacement.

Im worried about the deck holes as well.. I am hoping that the damage is localized enough so that I can get away with replacing a few deck beams, carlins and maybe bit of the sheer clamp, and patching in repairs.

If, however, she can be a sailing restoration.. that is to say I can get away with a year of major repair and then ongoing replacement as needed, even and up to keel replacement 5 or 10 years down the line, it would be worth it I think.

As Jim Trefethan's sentiments reflect in his book, even though it might cost more to do temporary, but sound, repairs in the short term and major repairs/replacements in the long term, you might actually DO them instead of sitting there with a pile of sticks for 3 years wondering when it will ever get done. smile.gif

We'll see.

[pcford]

Timothy-

One point...on the Phoenix site it said that the floor/frame joints were fastened with iron. Would the rest of hull be fastened with iron? Might be a problem. However, in the old days they were not as fastidious about not mixing metals.

Can't remember if the Weekenders were all iron fastened.

Surely is a nice boat. They had a big cockpit, right?

[Bob Cleek]

Being as Lawley was an East Coast yard, "finestkind" seemed like an apt description of their work. Yea, Norske, I've been around New England a bit. My wife's from thereabouts. Her uncle has a compound on the beach at Truro, so I've been around the Cape, Martha's Vinyard and Nantucket a few times. Nice place. Good boats. Great people... but I don't think I could handle that short sailing season! LOL

[TimothyB]

I postponed the visit til next wednesday.. tonite turned out to be bad. Can't go this weekend, so I'll take one of my many days off (man they stack up when you dont use em) left to me next week.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I think the year of work before water is probably realistic, if you're thinking.... maybe ... 1000 hours.

There are a few Lawley built boats up in this area too, and they command a lot of respect. The boat you're looking at seems to have kept her shape. Nice boat. It might be work, but the pedigree is right for putting that work in.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
I think the year of work before water is probably realistic, if you're thinking.... maybe ... 1000 hours.My experiance as a part time, amateur, large boatbuilder says to double the time you think it will take. Just don't tell your wife. :eek:

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by kc8pql:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
I think the year of work before water is probably realistic, if you're thinking.... maybe ... 1000 hours.My experiance as a part time, amateur, large boatbuilder says to double the time you think it will take. Just don't tell your wife. :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]Hehehe. Well, she and I have come to an agreement on this sort of thing and as long as the cost isn't -too- high, including hours, she's ok with it. That and she is interested in helping do the work, since she is an artisan herself, though with jewelry. She loves making and repairing things and likes the idea of fiddling with bits of wood on a boat. I'll make sure I spare her the bull work though ;)

In fact, she actually would prefer we -build- a boat from scratch.. which is likely if I don't find a candidate for restoration that is reasonable come spring.

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
I think the year of work before water is probably realistic, if you're thinking.... maybe ... 1000 hours.

There are a few Lawley built boats up in this area too, and they command a lot of respect. The boat you're looking at seems to have kept her shape. Nice boat. It might be work, but the pedigree is right for putting that work in.Thanks for that tidbit Peter! Yeah, I was thinking something like 1000 hours, but some of it I would help along with hired unskilled (aka student) hands to do the lighter but time consuming stuff like wooding, sanding and painting the hull, etc. Also I didn't intend on doing a full rehab the first season, just enough work to make her sound and servicable, and to spend a month each year after, and additional work as the money came in.

But.. we'll see how she is. smile.gif

[pcford]

Yeah, I was thinking something like 1000 hours, but some of it I would help along with hired unskilled (aka student) hands to do the lighter but time consuming stuff like wooding, sanding and painting the hull, etc. I would certainly disagree that sanding and painting is unskilled work. (!) It's not like rolling on a coat of paint in your living room. The old girl deserves to look good. It's possible that an unskilled person could do a good job, but I'd have to say that it is not likely.

[TimothyB]

Well... I didn't mean it quite like that! Certainly sanding and priming the hull could be done with some simple instruction and that would take a huge load off my end. Interior painting as well would be simple to teach. Finish painting is, of course, exacting work, and you want to give it your full attention. Along with varnishing, and any finish work.

Its the bull work and simple tasks that can be given to your average high school student (while you're supervising) and it will cut your time down drastically. In addition, if you hire one reliable assistant who is enthusiastic about the project, and you pay him/her to be there, you will be FAR more likely to show up on time, on schedule, and get things done. Plus since you have someone there you are trying to mentor you'll be alot more precise and careful about doing things. All around a good setup, I think.

[Norske3]

HI TIMOTHY.......gives us the dimensions.....identical to Ed's boat perhaps.

[ 10-31-2005, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

Nothing wrong with using newbies, as long as they're supervised well, and use hand tools (they'll make their mistakes less rapidly that way).

That's how the old-timers trained their apprentices.

A GOOD way to learn. Combined with some yarning (at lunch and at break-time) with the masters during the day, and with some reading nights, it's probably the BEST way.

Alan

[ 11-01-2005, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Noah]

There is no way that it would only take 1000 hours.

I had 600 into my Hinckley this spring, and that was basically wooding the entire boat, and painting and Varnishing inside and out. I also did some systems work, including a new head, and fresh water plumbing.

I think you might be able to do it in a year if you had a perfect place to work, and could do so every night.

The trouble with a project like this is you need to do it right the first time.

[TimothyB]

Well, I have good news and bad news. I'll give the bad news first.

I went up to see the boat (DOREIDA) and she was in a sorrier state than I had anticipated. She definitely needs lots of help, including new deadwood, possibly (probably) a new keel, new deck and deck beams, the interior completely torn out refinished and reinstalled, as well as repaired and fleshed out, and probably 75% of her frames need renewing. There was evidence of "hack" level work everywhere and numerous sister frames, rotten frame ends, and a hard spot on the starboard aft quarter that was obviously a broken frame(s). The mast is done. The sails are in poor condition. The transom needs to be refitted though possibly doesn't need to be replaced. The sternpost probably needs to be renewed. The floors need to be replaced (fastened with Iron).

Now.. the good news. Her planking is almost all good. The quality of the original mahagony is amazing and there is no evidence of rot in any of them that I could see. The cast iron ballast is bolted on through pockets, so the bolts can be removed.. the ballast bolts look to be massively thick Monel, two per ballast floor, and the ballast floors are also massive, clear oak and showing no signs of rot or sickness. The bolts have a pale green cast to them and when scraped show silvery through..no evidence of any corrosion at all on them. The coachroof and house sides have almost no rot except for one small area. The cockpit looks to be a refinish and renew, not replace job; almost all the wood looks to be that same mahagony and has not rotted at all. The cockpit coamings are in very good condition. The stem looks good. The mahagony trim looks good. The toerail looks ok. The planks were fastened with bronze slotted screws. The rudder is in ok shape, as is the tiller. The mast fittings, as well as all fittings found on the boat are bronze and in decent to very good shape. The mast spreaders are in good condition and could be salvaged and reused. The boat comes with two anchors as well, a marine head and etc, a bronze draw pump (galley) and other extras.

I'm really upset at the care this boat didn't recieve, but then I suppose that sort of things is not uncommon. My first instinct was to turn it down, but I found myself deciding to think about it more deeply and consider the idea before discarding it.

I'm open to advice smile.gif

[Alan D. Hyde]

IF you can make yourself do an appreciable amount of work every day--- even if it's just for an hour, and then spend whole days here and there thru the year, then you'll eventually end up with thousands of hours into her, but there's nothing there that can't be made right, and most here couldn't afford the level of quality you'll have when you're done. You'll have a splendid boat.

She can be restored, and what's there is well worth the effort. By a triumph of thought, will, judgment, and sweat, you can take Katherine Hepburn at ninety and make her into Kate at twenty again. Few opportunities for such glorious transformations offer themselves to us.

Whether you WISH to make the profound effort it will require, and whether you can persistently continue to MAKE it happen over a substantial period of time thru irritations, disappointments, delays, unforeseen expenses, and frustrations, is a question that only you can answer.

But, IF you answer in the affirmative...

Then, by God, you'll have something. :D

Alan

[Jack C]

This boat is in BOTM condition. Break Out The Marshmellows.

Just my opinion. All good things must come to an end eventually.

Jack

[Norske3]

Yes marshmellows....but save the planking so you can build a nice mahog table to eat your marshes on.....so sad.....a fine boat trash!....by many owners :mad:

[TimothyB]

I've thought abuot it long and hard and I agree that she is too much of a project to take on. It is really a shame, but I just don't have the resources to spend the 30k or so to do it. She'd be amazing if restored, but she's out of my reach at the moment.

Still looking though...

[Adamant]

I hope before the match is lit it gets posted on the Wooden Boat Rescue Foundation's website.
There may be someone interested in saving a classic no matter the hours or cost.

[TimothyB]

Thats a good point Adamant. I'll forward the info to him.