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johnw
06-03-2008, 06:14 PM
AP has put out a story that Obama will have a majority of the possible delegates tonight. Is the endless primary campaign over? Are we better or worse informed after all these months, and is the better system the one used by the Republicans or the Democrats?

Memphis Mike
06-03-2008, 06:36 PM
Obama's the man. Clinton has expressed interest as his running mate. I hope the hell he doesn't pick her. I'd like to see an Obama/Edwards ticket.

botebum
06-03-2008, 06:39 PM
Ok, my memory ain't so good but weren't you a Clinton supporter at one time Mike?
Btw- Obama/Edwards would be a good ticket.

Doug

Saltiguy
06-03-2008, 06:41 PM
A-B-C
Anybody but Clinton.
When they shoot her with a silver bullet, drive a stake through her heart and bury her 10 feet deep, THEN I'll believe she's out of the race.
Next thing, she'll try to extort herself (and Bill) onto the ticket as veep.

Yeadon
06-03-2008, 06:44 PM
I think Obama will pick Joe Biden. I've always thought that. They would be a nice balance, experience-wise, and would make for a very intelligent team, though their overall uppitiness might be a bit overwhelming.

No clue as to McCain's choice.

seanz
06-03-2008, 06:56 PM
No clue as to McCain's choice.

Is there a limit to the number of terms you can serve as VP?
Just wondering.......

Yeadon
06-03-2008, 07:07 PM
Is there a limit to the number of terms you can serve as VP?
Just wondering.......

Stop. Now. Don't even think such things.

johnw
06-03-2008, 07:11 PM
I expect Obama and McCain to each pick someone who would make a good president should the need arise. That should be the first qualification. The parties of the candidates probably hope they will pick someone who can run for president eight years from now.

And no, I don't think there is a limit to the number of terms you can serve as VP, but there is usually a limit to the number a politician can endure.

Yeadon
06-03-2008, 07:16 PM
According the leading democrat here, you are bordering on accusing the democrat pair as being a bit racist.;) And you know he always claims to being right!!!!


ljb5 (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/member.php?u=7700) http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_1854517", true);
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: here
Posts: 9,916


http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Obamas other "Sprititual Endorser"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1854510#post1854510)
I wish someone could explain what the hell 'elitist' means.

The word used to be "uppity" but some people decided that they wanted their racism to be a little less overt.

Erster, I want to be the leading Democrat, too.

BrianW
06-03-2008, 07:25 PM
Erster, I want to be the leading Democrat, too.

You'll need to hold an election based on popular vote, delegate votes, and super delegates. I suspect ljb5er is a WBF democratic super delegate, but you'll take the popular vote with no problems. :D

Paul Pless
06-03-2008, 07:27 PM
I expect Obama and McCain to each pick someone who would make a good president should the need arise. That should be the first qualification. Nice thought, but the first qualification is how many votes will that person bring to the ticket.

johnw
06-03-2008, 07:33 PM
Erster, your boating posts are wonderful, but your political ones continue to baffle me. I've seen no sign that any of the major candidates this year is a racist.

Yeadon
06-03-2008, 07:34 PM
I don't have any idea what the Democrats around here believe, alleged or truthfully, but I would like a title, and the leading Democrat has a nice ring to it.

Of course, I'm an Independent, so I'll have a bit of explaining to do.

Duncan Gibbs
06-03-2008, 07:35 PM
Nice thought, but the first qualification is how many votes will that person bring to the ticket.

Not nearly enough for McCain to win Paul. The poor sod is hamstrung/handicapped/weighed down/tarred and feathered before the genral election's even started.

abbyj
06-03-2008, 07:40 PM
The poor sod is hamstrung/handicapped/weighed down/tarred and feathered before the genral election's even started.

Surely you are not speaking of McCain

Yeadon
06-03-2008, 07:40 PM
His name is Duncan.

johnw
06-03-2008, 07:48 PM
What I'd like to know is, after this long, painful process, was it worth it? Or should the Democrats follow the Republicans in using a winner-take-all system that would end things quicker?

johnw
06-03-2008, 07:51 PM
You need to ask your fellow democrats here.
Uppitity according to the one that claims to be always right has alerted the forum to the fact that :



So what are we to conclude when the ticket of Obama and Biden is also labeled by what we are now to conclude as another leading democrat on the WBF? :D:p Confusing you say? HEHE! I agree!

As an independent, I don't have any "fellow Democrats." And I still don't see any basis for slinging mud and calling people racist.

abbyj
06-03-2008, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by johnw http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1856458#post1856458)
Erster, your boating posts are wonderful, but your political ones continue to baffle me. I've seen no sign that any of the major candidates this year is a racist.


You need to ask your fellow democrats here.
Uppitity according to the one that claims to be always right has alerted the forum to the fact that :


Quote:

The word used to be "uppity" but some people decided that they wanted their racism to be a little less overt.


So what are we to conclude when the ticket of Obama and Biden is also labeled by what we are now to conclude as another leading democrat on the WBF? :D:p Confusing you say? HEHE! I agree!


Quote:

They would be a nice balance, experience-wise, and would make for a very intelligent team, though their overall uppitiness might be a bit overwhelming.

Ouch!!!!!:D:D:D

Yeadon
06-03-2008, 08:01 PM
The system is fine. All the states, and a few territories, voted, and then we got a nominee. No blood was shed, and we had plenty of time to get to know the candidates. The peaceful part is what is important to me.

Regardless of how it happens ... we have two parties that are dominating the system, and it is their choice how they nominate their own candidates. They could flip a coin, and it would probably be their right to do so.

As an aside, I truly suspect that during my lifetime we will have a third party, a centrist party, that is conservative financially and progressive socially, that will gain traction and effect the outcome of our national politics.

Duncan Gibbs
06-03-2008, 08:13 PM
His name is Duncan.

Thanks Tim! I'd nearly forgotten! :D:D:p

And yes Abby; 'tiz the Johnny boy I speak of. He will not win because... Let's just say that the story of The Boy That Cried Wolf has a good deal of relevance here. Once Billary is out of the race then they'll throw their support behind Obama and the Illinois Senator will be unstoppable.

MiddleAgesMan
06-03-2008, 08:16 PM
Financial conservatism is fine until someone tacks on all the baggage it usually implies.

It's not financially conservative to allow corporations to rape and pillage the land and the workforce. Left to their own (unregulated) devices that is exactly what they do.

Until someone properly defines Crony Capitalism as Fascist Anarchy I will not allow myself to be labeled as a financial conservative. Take Crony Capitalism off the table and I'm in.

abbyj
06-03-2008, 08:19 PM
You need to ask your fellow democrats here.
Uppitity according to the one that claims to be always right has alerted the forum to the fact that :



So what are we to conclude when the ticket of Obama and Biden is also labeled by what we are now to conclude as another leading democrat on the WBF? Confusing you say? HEHE! I agree!


Thanks Tim! I'd nearly forgotten! :D:D:p

And yes Abby; 'tiz the Johnny boy I speak of. He will not win because... Let's just say that the story of The Boy That Cried Wolf has a good deal of relevance here. Once Billary is out of the race then they'll throw their support behind Obama and the Illinois Senator will be unstoppable.

ROTFLMAO:D

That's all I can say about that pipe-dream. I loved that Hillary was in the ring, although terrified of her getting the nomination. If Barack is the candidate, and Hillary doesn't join his posse, I am quite pleased.:D

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 08:23 PM
abbyj --

If you think the Clintons will not campaign hard for Obama you are dreaming. They are going to get significant something out of this one way or another -- VP spot, supreme court slot, significant cabinet post.... you name it. But it will all depend upon a Democratic victory in the Fall.

S/V Laura Ellen
06-03-2008, 08:32 PM
http://bigbrassblog.com/media/20/20070515-fat-lady-sings.jpg

I think I can hear her now!

johnw
06-03-2008, 08:39 PM
The system is fine. All the states, and a few territories, voted, and then we got a nominee. No blood was shed, and we had plenty of time to get to know the candidates. The peaceful part is what is important to me.

Regardless of how it happens ... we have two parties that are dominating the system, and it is their choice how they nominate their own candidates. They could flip a coin, and it would probably be their right to do so.

As an aside, I truly suspect that during my lifetime we will have a third party, a centrist party, that is conservative financially and progressive socially, that will gain traction and effect the outcome of our national politics.

If it's popular, one of the major parties will adopt it. First-past-the-post voting means it's hard for a third party to get a foothold. And by the way, Clinton balanced the budget and left it in surplus, so are you sure the party you dream of hasn't been and gone?

Rigadog
06-03-2008, 08:40 PM
M. Mike how would you be with an Obama/Hilton ticket?

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 08:42 PM
Is it finally over?

No. Hardly. ;)


June 03, 2008
White Women Take the Gloves Off
By Froma Harrop

The woman who shouted "McCain in '08" at the Democratic rules committee was speaking for a multitude. After mounting for months, female anger over the choreographed dumping on Hillary Clinton and her supporters has exploded -- and party loyalty be damned. That the women are beginning to have a good time is an especially bad sign for Barack Obama's campaign.

"Obama will NOT get my vote, and one step more," Ellen Thorp, a 59-year-old flight attendant from Houston told me. "I have been a Democrat for 38 years. As of today, I am registering as an independent. Yee Haw!"

A new Pew Research Center poll points to a surging tide of fury, especially among white women. As recently as April, this group preferred Obama over the presumptive Republican John McCain by three percentage points. By May, McCain enjoyed an eight-point lead among white women.

What's dangerous for the Democratic Party is that, for many women, the eye of the storm has moved beyond Hillary or anything she does at this point. The offense has turned personal.

They are now in their own orbit, having abandoned popular Democratic Websites that reveled in crude anti-Hillary outpourings -- and established new ones on which they trade stories of the Obama people's nastiness.

But worse than the online malice has been the affronts to their faces.

Tara Wooters, a 39-year-old mother from Portland, Ore., told me that wearing a Hillary sticker around town has become an act of defiance. She recalls one young man telling her, "I'd rather vote for a black man than a menopausal woman."

"We don't hurl insulting, berating remarks at Obama supporters, or at Obama himself or his family," Debbie Head, a 40-year-old from Austin, Texas, complained to me.

Remember Peggy Agar? The women do. They can't stop talking about the Detroit TV reporter who asked Obama a serious question at a Chrysler factory -- "How are you going to help American autoworkers?" -- to which he answered, "Hold on a second, sweetie."

The women are angry at the ludicrous charges of racism leveled against Clinton by the Obama camp -- amplified in the supposedly respectable media -- and projected onto themselves.

Jean B. Grillo, an "over 50" writer in lower Manhattan, was pretty straightforward: "I am so tired as a white, ultra-liberal, McGovern-voting, civil-rights marching, anti-war fighting highly educated professional woman who totally supports Hillary Clinton to be attacked and vilified as racist and or dumb."

Shauna Morris, a 44-year-old lawyer from Largo, Fla., told me, "I am upper-middle class, and I still can't stand him -- and it has nothing to do with race, believe me."

The women talk of being taken for granted by a party leadership that never spoke out on some of the outrageous Hillary bashing -- and despite the close race, joined the early rush to crown Obama.

"Many of us feel slighted," said Lynn Eyrich Harvey, 76, from Los Gatos, Calif. "We feel that years of supporting the party is unimportant, that we are to sit down and shut up -- but be sure to vote Democratic in November."

Passions can change, one supposes, but the women I hear from do not see the rampant sexism, particularly toward older women, as isolated gaffes but as a systemic dismissal of them -- an enormous voting bloc that has been reliably Democratic.

"How Obama's campaign has treated Hillary will not be forgotten," Janet Rogers, 55, who runs a Bed and Breakfast in Medina, Ohio, wrote me. "I will vote for McCain if Hillary is not the nominee. My husband and friends all feel the same way."

Indeed. McCain in '08 has suddenly become a more likely prospect.
fharrop@projo.com

johnw
06-03-2008, 08:54 PM
Bob, I meant the primary.

I think this will be a close-run contest in the general. McCain is a good candidate, although he was a better one from my point of view in 2000. And a black man running for president has a lot ot overcome.

coelacanth2
06-03-2008, 08:55 PM
S/V Laura Ellen, where did you get that picture of my first ltr girlfriend?
Just to throw a monkey wrench into the spokes of the electoral process, how about...McCain/Clinton ? I don't believe there's any rule that says the veep must be from the same party. She could still have her shot at it in 4 years. (uneasy might lie the head, though:D)

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 08:56 PM
Remember Peggy Agar? The women do. They can't stop talking about the Detroit TV reporter who asked Obama a serious question at a Chrysler factory -- "How are you going to help American autoworkers?" -- to which he answered, "Hold on a second, sweetie."Um.... I'm not about to fact-check every exchange listed in that essay. But if the Peggy Agar "incident" is representative, then Froma Harrop's essay is smoke and mirrors.

Keep dreaming....

glenallen
06-03-2008, 08:56 PM
That's laughable, Bob! :D

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 09:01 PM
Enjoy yourselves. Dis Hillary some more while you're at it. ;)

Talking to the shipyard crowd today I'm convinced the hate-Hillary crowd caused deep, deep wounds that aren't going away any time soon.

johnw
06-03-2008, 09:02 PM
When they say "it's not about the money," it's about the money. When they say, "it's not about race," it's about race. That's been my experience.

Memphis Mike
06-03-2008, 09:03 PM
Ok, my memory ain't so good but weren't you a Clinton supporter at one time Mike?
Btw- Obama/Edwards would be a good ticket.

Doug

At one time but now I just wish she would take her skanky old butt and go home.

skuthorp
06-03-2008, 09:04 PM
Love the gal Laura Ellen, send her down to sort out Mike!

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 09:05 PM
The ticket may will be Obama/Clinton.

John Edwards as attorney general?

botebum
06-03-2008, 09:10 PM
The ticket may will be Obama/Clinton.I'm not too thrilled about the idea but her supporters will help carry the election.

Mike- Thanks for responding. For a while there, I thought you were miffed at me for something.

Doug

johnw
06-03-2008, 09:13 PM
Enjoy yourselves. Dis Hillary some more while you're at it. ;)

Talking to the shipyard crowd today I'm convinced the hate-Hillary crowd caused deep, deep wounds that aren't going away any time soon.

I'm sure you are right about that. Personally, I think Hillary would do fine as president, but she started with many advantages and didn't run a good campaign. That's why she lost. She can help heal the party, but judging from the speech she made tonight, I'm not sure she will. Obama's got enough delegates to be the nominee, but she still won't concede.

There have been some strident Obama supporters and some strident Hillary supporters. I think we didn't see much from the Hillary haters until she went negative, so I'm not sure the issue is misogyny. Of course, some of the Republicans who are crossing the line are Hillary haters, and she's been around long enough to have made a few enemies in her own party. On the whole, I'd say if you wade in swinging, you can't complain about getting hit. And yet, she has.

C. Ross
06-03-2008, 09:14 PM
Congratulations to Senator Obama on an extremely well-run campaign, and hard fought victory.

I'm listening right now to the Minnesota Public Radio webcast of Obama's speech at the Excel Energy Center in St. Paul, where the Republican Convention will be held in September. The crowd is going nuts.

This primary season resulted in candidates that neither party favored or predicted. This is by all measures a good thing for American politics which has been choking on ingrown and self-serving political parties.

I think it's fair to predict that Sen. Obama will pick someone more southern and more conservative than he, and that Sen. McCain will pick someone younger than him (wink) and I think increasingly likely a woman to appeal to people who didn't necessarily want Sen. Clinton, but certainly wanted a woman.

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 09:20 PM
.... On the whole, I'd say if you wade in swinging, you can't complain about getting hit. And yet, she has.

Hillary's turned out to be a real trooper, and I'm sure after a decade+ or tutoring by Carville, Bill, Rove and other others...she understands the game thoroughly. But that's not the issue.

The issue is all those millions of working women in the shipyard and elsewhere who feel thoroughly betrayed. Not just by Obama's misoginist gaffs, but by so many like all our loyal Democrats here who've been dissing Hillary with wild abandon. Every one of those slights and insults rings true to women trying to make it in what's still a man's world....because they've experienced the same themselves.

This one ain't going away by November. This one is decades deep.

PS....these aren't Republicans either I'm speaking of. These are Norm Dicks Democrats.

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 09:27 PM
I am watching Obama's speech at this moment. There appear to be plenty of women in the audience.

glenallen
06-03-2008, 09:30 PM
McCain may choose a woman, Kay Bailey Hutchison, as his running mate.
I hope so! She's dumb as a box of rocks. In Texas all it takes to become a successful politician is to be an ex-cheerleader.

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 09:31 PM
I am watching Obama's speech at this moment. There appear to be plenty of women in the audience.

So am I.

They all have manicured fingernails, too.

Do I have to pull up his current numbers for working white women and compare them to three months ago? It ain't pretty.

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 09:34 PM
She's dumb as a box of rocks. In Texas all it takes to become a successful politician is to be an ex-cheerleader.

Making my case for me.

botebum
06-03-2008, 09:34 PM
So am I.

They all have manicured fingernails, too.
That was pretty lame Bob. I'll stick to your other posts that offer something valuable.

Doug

glenallen
06-03-2008, 09:38 PM
I am watching Obama's speech at this moment. There appear to be plenty of women in the audience.

Yeah sure, but don't they look alienated, pissed off, and disillusioned?
Aren't they shouting "down with the Racist woman-hater"? No?
I figgered!
Bob is really trying hard to make us fear our future with these scary races and genders, but suddenly his message rings hollow.

C. Ross
06-03-2008, 09:38 PM
They all have manicured fingernails, too.

Not in St. Paul. The right cultural reference is "they're wearing their dressy jeans".

Yeadon
06-03-2008, 09:38 PM
I'm confused. So women with clean fingernails are bad?

LeeG
06-03-2008, 09:39 PM
I'll try and contribute something thoughtful to this thread later but for now all I want is bananas flambe

C. Ross
06-03-2008, 09:39 PM
I'm confused. So women with clean fingernails are bad?

Didn't your mama tell you to avoid girls with bad hygiene?

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 09:40 PM
That was pretty lame Bob. I'll stick to your other posts that offer something valuable.


They didn't just get off shift at the shipyard.

But I'm always happy to leave you alone to dig your hole deeper.


A new Pew Research Center poll points to a surging tide of fury, especially among white women. As recently as April, this group preferred Obama over the presumptive Republican John McCain by three percentage points. By May, McCain enjoyed an eight-point lead among white women.

What's dangerous for the Democratic Party is that, for many women, the eye of the storm has moved beyond Hillary or anything she does at this point. The offense has turned personal.

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 09:42 PM
Whistling past the graveyard.

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 09:56 PM
The latest Pew Research Poll: 81% of the American public feel this country is on the wrong track. This year John Sidney McCain has voted 95% of the time to support Bush administration policies. That is why he is going to be sucking wind uphill in this coming general election campaign.

I'd rather have Obama's problem of soothing the hurt feelings of Clinton supporters.

elf
06-03-2008, 09:57 PM
McCain would do well to choose Condoleeza Rice. Then he could move towards the center and not have to be tarred with the McSame brush which the Democrats have been dusting off for the campaign.

Obama would do well to choose a Southern democrat, preferably white and female. He will choose Mrs. Clinton to lead his HHS campaigns once elected, and he will get her to behave. Or else he will ask her to move into Teddy's place in the Senate psychological structure.

For sure the way to defuse the racism issue is for both parties to have a candidate who is non-white. For sure the way to defuse the sexism issue is for both parties to have one of each gender.

elf
06-03-2008, 10:00 PM
Obama is clearly exhausted and needs to go home and sleep for a week or so. He didn't have the energy to do even one riff on his speech tonight, although he did pull off the invisible teleprompter trick again.

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 10:08 PM
Hillary did not concede tonight for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that her campaign has debt. She is still appealing to supporters to log-on to her website and contribute money. And they will. Would they if she had conceded tonight? I doubt it.

Then there is the fact that she has gained a lot of political capital. She is going to negotiate with Obama in the next few days. She may end up on the ticket. She is certainly going to get something that she wants. And she'll get it because Obama needs her to campaign for him in the general election.

Memphis Mike
06-03-2008, 10:09 PM
I'm not too thrilled about the idea but her supporters will help carry the election.

Mike- Thanks for responding. For a while there, I thought you were miffed at me for something.

Doug

No, not miffed at all. I think what changed my mind about Hillary was she should have bowed out of this thing a couple of months ago. If she cared anything about her party and the country she would have.

I believe now what some of the other forum members have been saying all along. She's nothing but a power hungry bitch.

And then there was an interview with a waittress on NPR a few months ago. Hillary had stopped at some small mid western cafe for lunch and to hob nob with working class women. The waitress who served her { a former supporter} was not impressed with her upon meeting her in person. She said Hillary didn't even leave her a tip when she left. Sometimes small personal actions speak volumes about a person.

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 10:09 PM
I don't know why anyone would be concerned about my comments.

Looks like Hillary will force the party into selecting her as Obama's VP. She certainly has the leverage, as her strengths are Obama's serious weaknesses.

That means McCain loses in a landslide...but Bill in turn, will likely turn Obama's Presidency into a disaster. Then we all continue to lose.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/a_big_dog_in_winter.html

Bill Clinton has always been a man threatened to be swallowed by the yawning maw of his own ego. Even as he has tirelessly stumped the country on behalf of his wife, he's given the impression that it's all about him. His rage at the process -- his temper tantrums at reporters and twisted attempts to make himself always the victim -- bespeaks an aggrieved sense of entitlement, that for all his good fortune he's owed even more.

That abiding sense will ensure his post-presidential career continues to be a restless, cringe-making affair. When he comes around to supporting Obama, who can doubt that he'll compare the candidate to himself, in the highest of all possible praise?

Yeadon
06-03-2008, 10:12 PM
Obama's greatest challenge will not be beating McCain, it'll be selecting someone other than Hillary, and getting away with it.

I agree that Bill is the potential long-term trouble here, not HRC, though she's no cup of tea either.

johnw
06-03-2008, 10:14 PM
Making my case for me.

George W was a yell king. That is, a male cheerleader. So don't think glenallen is being sexist, it works for both genders.

Memphis Mike
06-03-2008, 10:20 PM
"That means McCain loses in a landslide."

If Obama picked Mickey Mouse, McCain will still lose in a landslide. I have seen absolutely no support for him in this part of the country. There are going to be a lot of Republican "no shows" come election day and a record turn out for Democrats.

Those draft dodgers you voted for have guaranteed there will not be another Republican president for a long time to come. That is their greatest achievement.:D

Hell, the people in Mississippi for gosh sakes are voting Democrat!!:D

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 10:21 PM
George W was a yell king. That is, a male cheerleader. So don't think glenallen is being sexist, it works for both genders.

I'm just pulling the chain I was invited to pull.

But dismissing the recent rounds of Hillary bashing as not being construed by so many as sexist, you may be wishing away a major problem.

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 10:25 PM
Who was the last guy y'all touted as a shoe-in based on the Bush record? Hell, he should have been too.

Carey? Karey? Kherry? Kerrey?

Kachong. ;)

skuthorp
06-03-2008, 10:28 PM
So, if you do get Bill as VVP, what job could you find for him? Safely out of mischief making range? How about the National Disaster organisation? Or an ambassador to some difficult post, like Burma?

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 10:29 PM
The June 2004 Pew Research Poll: 65% of the American public felt we were on the wrong track. And Bush won in a squeaker.

glenallen
06-03-2008, 10:29 PM
I wish Obama would choose McCain for VP tomorrow and McCain would accept. Party's over!
No more millions spent on campaigns, no more intolerable hours of jabber-headed media wimps, no more Bush. Make him leave office tomorrow night.
Obama and McCain in office Thursday morning.
All in favor say Aye!

Tom Montgomery
06-03-2008, 10:30 PM
So, if you do get Bill as VVP, what job could you find for him?There will be several Supreme Court seats to fill. :eek:

S/V Laura Ellen
06-03-2008, 10:31 PM
I wish Obama would choose McCain for VP tomorrow and McCain would accept. Party's over!
No more millions spent on campaigns, no more intolerable hours of jabber-headed media wimps, no more Bush. Make him leave office tomorrow night.
Obama and McCain in office Thursday morning.
All in favor say Aye!

Aye (except for the McCain as VP part)!

skuthorp
06-03-2008, 10:33 PM
Bill? on the supreme court? OTOH Clarence is still there isn't he?

C. Ross
06-03-2008, 10:33 PM
There will be several Supreme Court seats to fill. :eek:

His disbarment might make that problematic.

Think whatever you like about his private behavior and whether it was impeachment-worthy, but lying under oath is not easily overlooked by the bar.

johnw
06-03-2008, 10:34 PM
No, not miffed at all. I think what changed my mind about Hillary was she should have bowed out of this thing a couple of months ago. If she cared anything about her party and the country she would have.

I believe now what some of the other forum members have been saying all along. She's nothing but a power hungry bitch.

And then there was an interview with a waittress on NPR a few months ago. Hillary had stopped at some small mid western cafe for lunch and to hob nob with working class women. The waitress who served her { a former supporter} was not impressed with her upon meeting her in person. She said Hillary didn't even leave her a tip when she left. Sometimes small personal actions speak volumes about a person.

I disagree. She could have stayed in it and conducted herself in a way that would not have divided the party. Bob is right, there are a lot of women out there who are bitter about how this campaign has gone. I think he's wrong about the cause -- Hillary has been the driving force in creating this division.

I have to say, I find it odd that the candidate who claimed to be ready to deal with the Republican attack machine is upset about some Obama supporters being rude. Almost looks like she's breaking up the party just to get a little leverage.

Huckabee stayed in the race long after McCain wanted him out. He didn't damage the party in doing so. It can be done if you don't spend all your time telling the party faithful why they shouldn't vote for the guy that's obviously goving to be the standard bearer.

johnw
06-03-2008, 10:36 PM
His disbarment might make that problematic.

Think whatever you like about his private behavior and whether it was impeachment-worthy, but lying under oath is not easily overlooked by the bar.

You said it. People must have very short memories to think that Bill could ever be on the court. Personally, I'd like to see our justices picked for their legal expertise. Politics will always enter in, but legal expertise is a must.

C. Ross
06-03-2008, 10:38 PM
I have to say, I find it odd that the candidate who claimed to be ready to deal with the Republican attack machine is upset about some Obama supporters being rude.

One of the hallmarks of both Clintons that I found most irritating was their ability to be simultaneously easily offended and always on the offensive.

I think when she said she was ready for the Republican attack machine she was telling us she was ready to dish it out, but not to take it.

glenallen
06-03-2008, 10:41 PM
George W was a yell king. That is, a male cheerleader. So don't think glenallen is being sexist, it works for both genders.

Thanks, John!
Right, and our current governor is himself another "yell king" at Texas A&M.
Texans are slow to learn and philosophically naive(hehe), but I'm happy to say that most Texans I've talked to lately have in fact learned a lot the past sixteen years.
I expect Texas to vote overwhelmingly for Obama in November, despite whatever lies and BS the Republics can come up with between now and then.

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 10:42 PM
While if it was just Hillary as VP, it would be such a dream ticket McCain should roll over now.

But since we last heard from President Bill, he has accumulated some baggage that the RNC will construe as corrupt. Add Obama's Rezko real estate deals and there may be a bigger problem than Obama trying to win over the working white vote.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/28/opinion/28dowd.html

“No, Bill, we’ll need full disclosure of your business dealings for the last eight years. And you can no longer accept Arab millions — not if I’m going to talk tough to them about oil. I can’t send Hillary on diplomatic missions to the Middle East if you’re taking money from Dubai and Kuwait. And no more trips to Kazakhstan. I wouldn’t want to have to put a Geiger-counter bracelet on you to check that you’re not involved in another shady uranium deal.”

“Ha, ha.”

“We need to know where that $11 million came from that you guys loaned your campaign. And the $15 million from Ron Burkle at Yucaipa and the $3 million from Vinod Gupta. And you must spill about any offshore accounts in the Caymans. And no more big-money speeches, Bill. You guys have already cashed in for more than $100 million.”

C. Ross
06-03-2008, 10:47 PM
Thanks, John!
I expect Texas to vote overwhelmingly for Obama in November

Current polls show McCain with a double-digit lead in Texas.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/tx/texas_mccain_vs_obama-628.html (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/tx/texas_mccain_vs_obama-628.html)

Texas: McCain vs. Obama

Polling Data

PollDateSampleMcCain (R)Obama (D)SpreadRCP Average05/01 - 05/25--50.739.3McCain +11.4
Baselice & Ass. (R) (http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/pdf/05/052808_texassurvey.pdf)05/20 - 05/251005 RV5236McCain +16.0
Research 2000 (http://research2000.us/)05/05 - 05/07600 LV5239McCain +13.0
Rasmussen (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/election_2008_texas_presidential_election)05/01 - 05/01500 LV4843McCain +5.0
See All Texas: McCain vs. Obama Polling Data (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/tx/texas_mccain_vs_obama-628.html#polls)

skuthorp
06-03-2008, 10:54 PM
Quite a few of the pundits here think McCain is a goer, but he'll have to be careful with his VP choice.

George Jung
06-03-2008, 10:59 PM
Despite contrary conjecture, this election still looks up for grabs. It really doesn't matter how the folks in any particular sector voted in the primaries; looking at the big picture, it's still a toss up. I've seen polls predicting both McCain and Obama as leading. But... an awful lot can happen before November.

Sounds like Hillary is playing her cards hard, pushing for some concessions. I agree, most likely she'll get them. But VP? Unmitigated disaster. Instead of 'two for the price of one', you'd have a trifecta - and I doubt they'd be working in concert. I think someone else noted, Hillary really needs to get elected four years from now, or likely that window of opportunity has passed her by. How does that work?

The best scenario for the Democrats is if Clintons get out of the limelight, and Obama brings in someone who would support him, not be a distraction.

I disagree that Obama / Clinton would be unstoppable. Folks I've talked to fear the same things I do - those three would be a disaster.

C. Ross
06-03-2008, 11:03 PM
I think McCain will have to be careful with his VP choice, and a whole lot more.

I hoped he would have prevailed in 2000, but the point is that the cultural and neo-con conservatives were then in the ascendency. It was their hour, and they screwed things up radically.

McCain is fighting uphill against: the most unpopular President in modern American history, a wildly unpopular war, a shaky economy and some really troubling trends in basic commodity prices, etc. etc. The fact that he is still a credible candidate is incredible. And yet, the polling data shows him as competitive.

The only way McCain will win is to get substantially more disciplined, pick an articulate and appealing VP candidate that plays to his weaknesses and Obama's strengths, go figure out exactly where he will be maverick and where he will be conventional, and hammer out a positive message that is not about attacking Obama. No small order, that.

If Obama runs the campaign, he probably wins big. If the DNC or independent expenditure groups "help" it will be a tight race, not a Nixon/McGovern or Johnson/Goldwater landslide.

johnw
06-03-2008, 11:03 PM
I'm just pulling the chain I was invited to pull.

But dismissing the recent rounds of Hillary bashing as not being construed by so many as sexist, you may be wishing away a major problem.

I said you were right, that it is a problem, so how is that dismissing it? On the other hand, she said if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Is that just a rule for other people?

Glenallen, I lived in Odessa, Tx, for three years, and if Obama gets more than 25% of the vote in Ector County I'll eat my hat. If I can find a decent recipe.

McCain is going to win Texas. Republicans generally do. Besides, Obama was never a cheerleader like Bush.

johnw
06-03-2008, 11:10 PM
Despite contrary conjecture, this election still looks up for grabs. It really doesn't matter how the folks in any particular sector voted in the primaries; looking at the big picture, it's still a toss up. I've seen polls predicting both McCain and Obama as leading. But... an awful lot can happen before November.

Sounds like Hillary is playing her cards hard, pushing for some concessions. I agree, most likely she'll get them. But VP? Unmitigated disaster. Instead of 'two for the price of one', you'd have a trifecta - and I doubt they'd be working in concert. I think someone else noted, Hillary really needs to get elected four years from now, or likely that window of opportunity has passed her by. How does that work?

The best scenario for the Democrats is if Clintons get out of the limelight, and Obama brings in someone who would support him, not be a distraction.

I disagree that Obama / Clinton would be unstoppable. Folks I've talked to fear the same things I do - those three would be a disaster.

About this time four years ago, John Kerry was way ahead. Current polls show Obama and McCain in a dead heat. It could go either way. I'd feel great about that if we were seeing the McCain of eight years ago.

Keith Wilson
06-03-2008, 11:14 PM
Obama will be running to a large extent against George W., which is why Rice would be a very bad choice for VP. No, it's not fair; politics isn't. Bush ran against Clinton when he could, and it worked. McCain gave a speech tonight where he said, basically "No, dammit, I'm not Bush's third term." If he has to keep saying that, he's dead in the water. OTOH, the policies McCain supports are, objectively, not that much different than Bush's. He'd almost certainly do a better job, but that wouldn't be difficult. "More of the same, only not so stupid" may be accurate, but it just doesn't have that zing.

glenallen
06-03-2008, 11:15 PM
Odessa? Poor devil! I'm happy you recovered!:D
Send me the hat and I'll make my special enchiladas and send them to you frozen. You'll never even guess the hat is in there.

skuthorp
06-03-2008, 11:16 PM
"I'd feel great about that if we were seeing the McCain of eight years ago."

Will his age play against him in the long run? He'd need a VP who could be a credible Pres, just in case.

Bob Smalser
06-03-2008, 11:22 PM
Obama will be running to a large extent against George W....

It's a nice line but I don't think it'll sell for very long. The facts simply aren't there.

McCain was Bush's most bitter rival and the worst of Rove's dirty tricks were played on McCain, not Gore. McCain fought Rumsfeld tooth and nail over Iraq strategy, and when he finally got his way, a bad situation improved. Plus McCain is a team player with an extensive track record, both in bipartisan Congressional efforts and internationally. Neither Bush nor Obama can match him there. And that's just the tip of that iceberg.

Obama will need a better line of attack than painting McCain as Bush III. You can keep at it if you like, but it'll eventually be a loser.

C. Ross
06-03-2008, 11:22 PM
Will his age play against him in the long run? He'd need a VP who could be a credible Pres, just in case.

Age plays against all of us in the long run!

Yeah, he needs somebody under fifty who is credible. Remember GWBush Sr. picked Dan Quayle trying to skew young...and that didn't work out so well...

johnw
06-03-2008, 11:30 PM
Odessa? Poor devil! I'm happy you recovered!:D
Send me the hat and I'll make my special enchiladas and send them to you frozen. You'll never even guess the hat is in there.

When people in Odessa found out I was from the Northwest, they'd ask how I ended up in Odessa. I told them it was a miscarriage of justice. I'm sure I've never done anything bad enough to be sent to Odessa. Lubbock, maybe.

I'm looking for a nacho hat...

Keith Wilson
06-04-2008, 08:53 AM
McCain was Bush's most bitter rival and the worst of Rove's dirty tricks were played on McCain, not Gore. True, although their disagreements were in a few narrow areas. His voting record in Congress belies his independent image. Only the Bush administration's intolerance for even the slightest disagreement within in the party made him a "maverick".
McCain fought Rumsfeld tooth and nail over Iraq strategy, and when he finally got his way, a bad situation improved. Also true, and it's to his credit. I'll willingly concede he's far better than Rumsfeld. And if that's the best you can come up with . . . . :D He's also much better than Pedro the Cruel, Ismail the Bloodthirsty, and Vlad the Impaler.
Plus McCain is a team player with an extensive track record, both in bipartisan Congressional efforts and internationally.Can you be a "most bitter rival" and a "team player" simultaneously? They're both Republicans, yes? However, considered objectively, the policies McCain advocates are very much the same as Bush's. If you think those policies are basically correct, but Bush's execution was flawed, then McCain's your man. "More of the same, only not nearly so stupid" started out as a joke, but, it's really not far wrong. OTOH, if you think that the problem was both the policies and how they were executed, best not vote for McCain.

johnw
06-04-2008, 12:33 PM
So I've now heard Hillary's comments from last night. Still pushing the idea that she'd be the better nominee. If she keeps running when there is no hope of being elected, people will start thinking of her as Harold Stassen. Honestly, that part of the speech sounded a bit delusional. And we do need a president who lives in the real world.

Saltiguy
06-04-2008, 01:11 PM
A-B-C
Anybody but Clinton.
Much is being made of the idea that Hillary "owns" the female vote and that Obama will need her to win in November. I think that is false.
The "real" Hillary female loyalists have always been the liberal, college educated, women, not the blue collar factory types she picked up in the primaries. The blue collar working women (Pennsylvania/Ohio/West Virginia) no-college women voted for Hillary, not because they liked her so much, but for 2 other reasons. (1) They wanted to vote for a woman. (2) They did NOT want to vote for Obama.
In the fall, these same women will either stay home, or vote for Obama. They won't vote for McCain in any event. Same for the Hillary loyalists.
What does this mean? IMO, Obama does NOT need Hillary to win the election, in fact, her negatives are so deep among independents that she will create a negative factor for Obama.
I will be astonished if he selects her for veep.

Bob Smalser
06-04-2008, 01:55 PM
Presidents often say that they don't govern based on polls... and they're right to say that. Candidates, however, who are out of step with popular opinion, don't have that refuge.

You and Kieth may well be right. But it's gonna be fun to watch and argue about.

I'm just glad I don't have to decide to go for the sure win with Hillary and a disastrous tripartite Presidency.....or a real horse race between two candidates instead of three. ;)

Keith Wilson
06-04-2008, 02:06 PM
I'm just glad I don't have to decide to go for the sure win with Hillary . . .Bob, do you really think that Hillary as VP candidate would be "a sure win"?? Justified or not, a lot of people seem to think of her as the Wicked Witch of the West's nastier sister, (or seemed; some have started to shift their ire to Obama now that he's winning) and were she the candidate both her and Bill's hidden skeletons would be dug up and paraded around by legions of zealous reporters. I think that the resentment of Hillary's supporters will evaporate once they get a closer look at what McCain is really proposing. There's really very little difference between Obama's and Clinton's positions on the issues, and significant differences between them and McCain. Winning primaries is not the same thing as winning the general election, and I'm not at all sure that Hillary on the ticket would help.

Bob Smalser
06-04-2008, 02:26 PM
Bob, do you really think that Hillary as VP candidate would be "a sure win"?? Justified or not, a lot of people seem to think of her as the Wicked Witch of the West's nastier sister....

I certainly do.

The Republicans already have the economy, the war and Big Government against them, making the Dems the overwhelming choice backed up by a lot of history.

The only thing that can possibly screw up Dem chances is another bad choice like Kerry....a candidate weak where his opponent is strong, a candidate of questionable judgment, and an aloof candidate who doesn't connect with critical voter segments like older women, Hispanics, Jews, and white blue-collar workers. The DNC didn't do an adequate job helping Kerry overcome his weaknesses, and history may well repeat itself.

The only people demonizing Hillary right now are her fellow Democrats who can't stand to hear Obama challenged....her toughness and stamina gained a helluva lot of respect (and support) from independents and Reps alike. She can win critical voter segments a doctrinaire liberal Obama or Kerry never will...segments that will probably go for McCain in November.

Obama supporters will do well to shake their complacency, take their candidate off his pedestal, acknowledge his weaknesses, and work to overcome them. While I think someone like Wes Clark or Sam Nunn would be a perfect compliment to Obama's weaknesses, they probably won't bring in the votes where Obama needs them to win.

Captain Blight
06-04-2008, 02:28 PM
I hope Hillary doesn't get the nod for Veep; I think she'd be the Kiss of Death for anything she touched right now. Or ever. Reason being, remember all those rights and privileges that used to NOT belong to the Executive Branch? Remember how the Current Occupant has arrogated himself a much larger piece of the the pie than the Framers ever intended the President should have? Well, when he leaves office, he doesn't take those powers along with him: they remain with the Presidency. Do you trust HRC to use that power with any kind of restraint and wisdom? I certainly didn't and that's why I voted for Obama. That, and I didn't want to see McCain have that power either. "More of the same but not so stupid this time" just ain't gonna git it, boys.

It's going to take more than an election to fix the problems this nation has. It's going to take years and years of hard work and sacrifice--on everyone's part, from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to Main Street, USA. Neither party has all the answers, because America is too diverse a nation to have a "one-size fits all" philosophy for anything. What will benefit you will screw me--or the guy down the street from me. Either way, our culture has been in crisis since 1967, and simply fothering the leaks and sistering the frames isn't helping. I don't care how good the repair is, if you don't cut back to sound wood and eradicate the rot, you're not fixing the problem. You're only hiding it.

elf
06-04-2008, 03:01 PM
Looks like Hillary will force the party into selecting her as Obama's VP. She certainly has the leverage, as her strengths are Obama's serious weaknesses.


Mrs. Clinton does not have any strengths.

johnw
06-04-2008, 03:20 PM
From Jimmy Carter:

"I think it would be the worst mistake that could be made," said Carter. "That would just accumulate the negative aspects of both candidates."

johnw
06-04-2008, 03:25 PM
The only people demonizing Hillary right now are her fellow Democrats who can't stand to hear Obama challenged....her toughness and stamina gained a helluva lot of respect (and support) from independents and Reps alike. She can win critical voter segments a doctrinaire liberal Obama or Kerry never will...segments that will probably go for McCain in November.

Obama supporters will do well to shake their complacency, take their candidate off his pedestal, acknowledge his weaknesses, and work to overcome them. While I think someone like Wes Clark or Sam Nunn would be a perfect compliment to Obama's weaknesses, they probably won't bring in the votes where Obama needs them to win.

Bob, if you think Democrats are the only ones demonizing Hillary, you don't get out much.

John of Phoenix
06-04-2008, 03:52 PM
When people in Odessa found out I was from the Northwest, they'd ask how I ended up in Odessa. I told them it was a miscarriage of justice. I'm sure I've never done anything bad enough to be sent to Odessa.
I spent a week in Odessa one night. We got weathered in on a crosscountry flight flying some Kiowas from Corpus Christi to California -thunderstorms, tornadoes - nasty weather. Got the helicopters secure and headed for the Holiday Inn about 8 pm. No bar (a dry county), the restaurant closed at 6 and the 7-11 (I kid you not) closed at 9.

They offered me Odessa in the witness protection plan. "No thanks, I'll take my chances on my own."

johnw
06-04-2008, 03:56 PM
Isn't Sam Nunn about 70 these days? That's a little old for a VP. I like the Wes Clark idea. Certainly someone with good military cred would help. Obama's biggest weakness is a lack of experience. And Democrats do best with a Southerner on the ticket.

Hillary is certainly running an unusual campaign for the VP slot. As recently as last night she was saying she was the stronger candidate. Usually, disrespecting the person you are asking to give you a job is considered a bad technique.

johnw
06-04-2008, 04:03 PM
I spent a week in Odessa one night. We got weathered in on a crosscountry flight flying some Kiowas from Corpus Christi to California -thunderstorms, tornadoes - nasty weather. Got the helicopters secure and headed for the Holiday Inn about 8 pm. No bar (a dry county), the restaurant closed at 6 and the 7-11 (I kid you not) closed at 9.

They offered me Odessa in the witness protection plan. "No thanks, I'll take my chances on my own."

Ector County wasn't dry when I got there, although as I recall, the county to the north (Andrews) still was. I'm guessing the oil boom changed things. When I covered the police beat, a guy claimed he wrestled with a man who had a gun, which discharged into the ceiling. Nobody saw nothin', and the police were unable to determine whether any of the bullet holes in the ceiling were fresh.

Odessa is celebrated for a large plastic statue of a jackrabbit, and a meteor hole at the edge of town. I kid you not, they brag about having a hole.

On the other hand, they have a pretty good sense of humor about the town.

Nicholas Scheuer
06-04-2008, 04:20 PM
Yes, it's o-v-e-r, but what complaint did anyone have?. All everybody seemed to be able to cry about in the beginning was "HAVING A VOICE, HAVING A VOICE, HAVING A VOICE in the selection of a Presidential Candidate".

Well, almost every state was important, which is to say, EVERYBODY HAD THEIR GOD DAMMED VOICE".

Got any more complaints?

Hey, if democracy is too much trouble, move to a country that doesn't have it. There are plenty around.

Moby Nick

Bob Smalser
06-04-2008, 04:27 PM
Mrs. Clinton does not have any strengths.

Except perhaps 17.49 million votes to Obama's 17.54 million and a 100+ vote electoral college advantage over Obama.

But like I said, it's no skin off my nose to watch y'all double down on a questionable bet. ;)


http://www.utterz.com/~u-NTA3OTk4NQ/utt.php

If you listen to this argument from Hillary Clinton this week, she makes a very good point. The math is currently in favor of Barack Obama to win the primary, but the math is in her favor to win the thing that actually puts people in the White House, Electoral Votes.

She's won in states where the electoral votes are high enough to put someone in the White House bringing in what would be over 310 electoral votes. (It takes 270 electoral votes to become president.)
Obama has won in states that would only yield electoral votes in the low 200's.

Now the argument can and is regularly made that Democrats that voted for Hillary will vote for Obama. That may be true, but there are more Independents and former Republicans (not counting the Limbaugh Loonies) that voted for Hillary and will be on the fence again if she is not the nominee. McCain can potentially take those people that are more centrist but voted in the Democratic Primary for Hillary, who has always been centrist herself. (As much as McCain has been painted a clone of GW, he has always been considered and acted like more of a centrist himself, and only moving more right over the last few years.)

From another perspective Hillary has accumulated over 16 million votes. Those are 16 million people around the country, in large states and in swing states that voted for her over Barack Obama and the other Democratic candidates.

I ask you, "What type of moron running for President would not do everything in their power to bring such a person onto their team?"

Could Barack Obama actually be dumb enough not to choose Hillary as his VP? I understand that he represents 'change' (because he says so, even though he has not yet changed anything other than changing his address with a questionable real estate transaction), and that Hillary is a blast from the past with her ties to the White House in the 90's.

But we are talking about 16 million voters. Is Barack Obama going to assume that he will pick up 16 million votes? Will he try to run for the White House gambling on 16 million votes? We all know what happens when you assume something, we all also know what happens when Democrats gamble for the White House (Al Gore), is there any way that Obama could demonstrate ineptitude any better than by failing to pick the one person that could deliver him to the White House?

Tanbark Spanker
06-04-2008, 04:33 PM
Hillary has more Annunaki royal blood than Obama, right?

George Roberts
06-04-2008, 04:59 PM
"pick an articulate and appealing VP candidate that plays to his weaknesses"

There is only one criteria for picking a vice president: the president might die.

That happens more often than one would like.

paladin
06-04-2008, 05:20 PM
JohnW...dunno Knock the wabbit statue in Odessa......they grow big rabbits down there....I have photos of that particular one with a saddle on it, fer back in the days when I was a wabbit boy punchin' wild wabbits instead of longhorns......

Bob Smalser
06-04-2008, 05:21 PM
I think NOT!



Asked and answered. The statement was that Hillary has no strengths.

As she was within 50,000 votes of 35 million cast, and those in states with more electoral votes, the statement is absurd, as is your objection.

botebum
06-04-2008, 05:24 PM
It's more likely that Republican voters will stay home rather than Hill's supporters. They are just as sick of the current admin as everybody else and will vote by not showing up.

Doug

johnw
06-04-2008, 05:37 PM
And you're presuming that some highly significant number of 'Hillary's' votes are either going to stay home, or vote for McCain, in some instaneous fit of pique? They're all Democrats...and most of them will vote Democratic. The number of dissapfected Hillary supporters who will stay home or vote GOP can be debated, but it's hardly arguable that it will be a large number.

Will Romney and Giuliani supporters be voting for Obama based on the same reasoning?

I think NOT!

Hillary doesn't have ANY electoral votes. Presumptions about how a candidate will do in a general election, based on the results of a primary, are utterly ridiculous. What's the reddest state in the nation.... Mississippi? One of them won that state.... why would anyone think that it's any sort of indication that the Dem nominee will automatically win that state in November?

Some will vote for McCain. Chances are he'll win West Virginia, which Bill Clinton won twice, and which Hillary would have been favored to win. Obama has got a tough fight ahead of him, and I think Bob is right in saying it matters a great deal who he picks for vice president. With McCain, I think the running mate matters far less.

I'm not convinced that Hillary is the best choice. You'd have two northerners on the ticket. It would presumably prevent her supporters from staying home election day, but there may be other choices that will help more. The country doesn't know Obama that well yet, and his choice will say a lot about him to the voters.

Nicholas Scheuer
06-04-2008, 06:59 PM
You can tell the Reps are in bad, bad shape when Bob starts tooting Hillary's horn.

Hey, Bob there are a lot of women in the USA that don't work at your shipyard. My wife, who has been working in Obama's campaign for months, could fill your ear about Hillary, but she wouldn't waste her time.

Moby Nick

Bob Smalser
06-04-2008, 07:24 PM
You can tell the Reps are in bad, bad shape when Bob starts tooting Hillary's horn.


Y'all will have to figure out whether I'm tooting Hillary's horn or setting you up for a fall.

But listening y'all vilify the Clintons with only slightly less of the hatred you have for Bush has kept me rolling on the floor in laughter for months.

Captain Blight
06-04-2008, 07:27 PM
Really, Bob? Why?

Duncan Gibbs
06-04-2008, 07:44 PM
I think Bob missed the reason in this thread's title...


pugnacious, Pronunciation Rhymes: -e???s, Adjective
pugnacious (comparative more pugnacious, superlative most pugnacious), Aggressive, combative, war-like, belligerent.
Don't antagonize him; he's big and has a pugnacious disposition.

from wiki (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pugnacious)

skuthorp
06-04-2008, 08:01 PM
Hmm, one from left field. How about Obama pics Opra as his running mate? How do you think that would fly?

johnw
06-04-2008, 08:07 PM
Hmm, one from left field. How about Obama pics Opra as his running mate? How do you think that would fly?

Not.

High C
06-04-2008, 08:47 PM
....But listening y'all vilify the Clintons with only slightly less of the hatred you have for Bush has kept me rolling on the floor in laughter for months.

It has been amazing/amusing to hear, after so many years of unbridled support. Fair weather friends! :rolleyes: :D

I think Carter is right. Hillary would sink the Obama campaign like a lead winch handle. There are a lot of unenthused Republicans, myself included, who are less than anxious to throw the lever for McCain. Hillary on the ticket would get me up bright and early to be first in McCain's line on election day.

johnw
06-04-2008, 11:37 PM
She's going to concede and endorse Obama Saturday. At first they said Friday, but that's the 40th anniversary of Robert F. Kennedy's assassination...

Hillary has done herself a mess of damage in the last few months. Let the healing begin.

pila
06-05-2008, 12:34 AM
I believe there are simply a LOT of people who just don't like Hillary.

As far as John Edwards goes, I couldn't support a lawyer who chased ambulances that long to get that rich.

Bob Smalser
06-05-2008, 12:36 AM
Hillary on the ticket would get me up bright and early to be first in McCain's line on election day.

Yup. ;)

WX
06-05-2008, 12:40 AM
We get a lot and I mean a lot of coverage of your election process here. Christ, it's like watching Days of Our Lives! How much longer is it going to go for?

Nicholas Scheuer
06-05-2008, 07:00 AM
You were LOL (or was ROTFALMO?) about Obama's chances in the very beginning, too, Bob.

Keep it up, LOL and ROTFALMO are the things Reps seem to do best; not very constructive, but the contrast with a REAL Candidate only helps our cause.

Moby Nick

George Jung
06-05-2008, 08:05 AM
And that's the problem, Nick - "Your Cause". It's that polarization that is screwing up this country. Recognize, it's not 'Your Cause". It's Our Cause. I'd hope folks would be figuring some of this stuff out by now.
Politicking is fine, to a point - but eventually, if we're going to get somewhere, 'us vs them' needs to be put to rest.

elf
06-05-2008, 10:15 AM
We get a lot and I mean a lot of coverage of your election process here. Christ, it's like watching Days of Our Lives! How much longer is it going to go for?

November 4th, 2008. Between now and August something we have no actual nominees, only provisional ones (Obama), then in September we get the other one officially (McCain). After that they begin the official campaigning.

But don't you think for a moment that they aren't campaigning right now.

Thanks for watching.

johnw
06-05-2008, 01:09 PM
And that's the problem, Nick - "Your Cause". It's that polarization that is screwing up this country. Recognize, it's not 'Your Cause". It's Our Cause. I'd hope folks would be figuring some of this stuff out by now.
Politicking is fine, to a point - but eventually, if we're going to get somewhere, 'us vs them' needs to be put to rest.

Actually, polarization has been the strategy of Republican candidates since Nixon. George Packer wrote a nice article about it.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/26/080526fa_fact_packer?currentPage=all

Money quote: '“Positive polarization” helped the Republicans win one election after another—and insured that American politics would be an ugly, unredeemed business for decades to come.'

Dividing the country has been the central Republican strategy for winning elections for more than 30 years. The Kerry-Bush contest in 2004 was essentially a reprise of the 1972 McGovern-Nixon contest. I'd like to see the country move past the '60s and start dealing with the present. What do you think the chances are?

johnw
06-05-2008, 01:38 PM
Bob, before you go blaming Obama's supporters for all the bitterness, consider this bit of experience from James Clyburn, D-SC, as reported by the Washington Post:

'Clyburn said his office has been deluged with racist phone calls since his endorsement of Obama on Tuesday, some so vicious an intern had to be taken from his office crying on Tuesday. Clyburn blamed the dismissive tone set by Clinton and her supporters, a tone that he said continued Tuesday night when she held a "victory rally" and failed to acknowledge defeat.

"At some point, she needs to congratulate the man for having won," Clyburn said before Clinton announced the Saturday event. "Those kinds of things are important to us who grew up in the South with these kinds of slights. That speech cannot be seen as anything but a slight." '

I think she basically tried the 'positive polarization' trick in the primaries. Using the technique the Republicans used against Democrats to try to win the nomination has divided the party, and if the Democrats lose in the fall, Hillary will take much of the blame. The last two months, she hasn't exactly been appealing to our better angels. Her success in the later primaries shows it might work for the Republicans, but McCain will only resort to these tactics if his ambition is stronger than his principles.

gary porter
06-05-2008, 01:54 PM
Don't look now but the Dems have had it with Hillary....
Look for her to bail and run as an independent.
How about that???
Gary.....

elf
06-05-2008, 02:01 PM
Don't look now but the Dems have had it with Hillary....
Look for her to bail and run as an independent.
How about that???
Gary.....

Sad.

But for two weeks now the blogs have been talking about her Rovian tactics.

Sad.

Captain Blight
06-05-2008, 02:03 PM
That's a possibibility I think no one wishes to entertain. She might do it, too, in '12. I wouldn't be surprised to see that, and who knows? Maybe she'll pull a Perot and do WAY better than anyone ever thought she might.

elf
06-05-2008, 02:06 PM
Maybe she'll follow Lieberman, who just got a dressing down by Obama in the Senate this morning.

George Jung
06-05-2008, 02:33 PM
elf - details/link?

George Roberts
06-05-2008, 02:48 PM
It appears that Mr. Obama has problems with his temper.

johnw
06-05-2008, 02:53 PM
It appears that Mr. Obama has problems with his temper.

Doesn't look that way to me. He apparently was emphatic, but parted on friendly terms. Lieberman had attacked his speech on Israel without having heard it. If Obama were incapable of defending himself from that sort of thing, he wouldn't have made it this far.

elf
06-05-2008, 03:03 PM
It appears to me that Mr. Obama may be asking Mr. Lieberman to leave the Democratic party, and soon. I'll bet we'll be seeing him in CT talking to Ned Lamont sometime in the next week or so.

Mr. Obama is now the head of the party, and it will be interesting to see the many ways he goes about consolidating that position, having come from below so recently, and still not being certain of what the previous heads are going to do about their loss.

I think you will not see ill-temper, however.

Captain Blight
06-05-2008, 03:24 PM
I think you will not see ill-temper, however.
More in the rows of people queueing up to pucker up. I suppose that's one way to "reach across the aisle."

Keith Wilson
06-05-2008, 03:45 PM
Ms. Clinton is apparently now ready to concede and endorse Obama; she'll announce it on Saturday. From the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/us/politics/05dems.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Clinton+endorse+Obama&st=nyt&oref=slogin


Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton will endorse Senator Barack Obama on Saturday, bringing a close to her 17-month campaign for the White House, aides said. Her decision came after Democrats urged her Wednesday to leave the race and allow the party to coalesce around Mr. Obama.

Howard Wolfson, one of Mrs. Clinton’s chief strategists, and other aides said she would express support for Mr. Obama and party unity at an event in Washington that day. One adviser said Mrs. Clinton would concede defeat, congratulate Mr. Obama and proclaim him the party’s nominee, while pledging to do what was needed to assure his victory in November.

Her decision came after a day of conversations with supporters on Capitol Hill about her future now that Mr. Obama had clinched the nomination. Mrs. Clinton had, in a speech after Tuesday night’s primaries, suggested she wanted to wait before deciding about her future, but in conversations Wednesday, her aides said, she was urged to step aside.

gary porter
06-05-2008, 04:13 PM
I think she will be supportive at least until he picks his running mate.
If it isn't her then watch your back BHO.
Gary

Duncan Gibbs
06-05-2008, 05:16 PM
I think she will be supportive at least until he picks his running mate.
If it isn't her then watch your back BHO.
Gary

Nah! I saw Mareen Dawd (?Sp) on our Oz ABC last night and she was with Hillary after Obama claimed victory. She reckons Hillary will fall in behind Obama and give him 100%. Not VP but some plum cabinet post or somethingorother.

gary porter
06-05-2008, 05:31 PM
I'm thinking it doesn't make much difference either way. They've slapped each other so much in the past few months that it would be much of a farce to now join arms and play all kissy face. On the other hand if they don't then quite a few followers are headed to the McCain
camp. I'd say that McCain has a very good chance this election.
Gary

C. Ross
06-05-2008, 06:24 PM
Not VP but some plum cabinet post or somethingorother.

There are only four plum cabinet posts in the US -- State, Treasury, Defense, and Health and Human Services. I'm guessing she wants "somethingorother" which is another run at health care.

She'd have a better shot at that from the Senate, with a pledge of support from President Obama in her pocket and an hand-picked friend at HHS, than she would being Secretary of HHS herself.

huisjen
06-05-2008, 06:26 PM
There appear to be some here under the impression that this Democratic Primary season was supposed to be decided by the popular vote. You are wrong. (That's you, Colonel!) Obama plays by the rules, because the rules determine who wins. The rules of this game were that the score was tallied in delagates. If the rules had said that the outcome would be based on popular vote tallies, Obama would have allocated resources differently and he would have taken much more of the popular vote.

Furthermore, even when Obama lost states, votes for him grossly outnumbered those for McSame et al. People are fired up for Obama. John McSame doesn't have an original idea or clear concept of reality anywhere within a couple hundred miles of his campaign. He can't tell Suni from Shia. He can't tell toothpaste from preparation-H. Have you seen his "new" campaign imagery and slogan, both clearly ripped off from Obama?

Get the floor wax. We got a new mop.

elf
06-05-2008, 06:27 PM
Yup. I wouldn't want her leading the Universal Health Care effort, thanks. She can't think far enough outside the box. And that's the only possible one.

She's better off in the Senate.

S/V Laura Ellen
06-05-2008, 06:45 PM
It's time for you politically savvy Americans to answer a question.

Hillary is stating that she will announce that she will suspend her campaign.

Q1: If she suspends it, can she resume it later (at the convention).

Q2: If she suspends her campaign, what happens to her pledged candidates, are they still hers to use a the convention if she changes her mind.

elf
06-05-2008, 06:52 PM
Sigh.

Q1: yes
Q2: yes, but of course, if they have the courage they can abandon her

Gotcha.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-05-2008, 06:57 PM
Hillary Clinton seems to have gone from an icon of the womens' movement to an albatross round its neck inside 48 hours.

glenallen
06-05-2008, 07:17 PM
..."some freshman startup with nothing more than the primetime media on his side looking for ratings." erster

:DI love looking at your boats, but I love it just as much when you say something utterly stupid inspired by Sour Grapes.
Did you not notice those many millions of Voters on his side?

glenallen
06-05-2008, 08:02 PM
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
Millions of people, including me, share your love of simplicty and self-sufficiency, boats and water.
So, what's your alternative, McCain? Don't vote at all?
Would you use the name "messiah" for McCain and call his supporters Koolaide Drinkers too?
I agree, 16 months of this crap is way too much! And it ain't over yet!

Duncan Gibbs
06-05-2008, 09:31 PM
Mike,

Two things:
1. If Obama wins, and I predict a solid win at the very least, will you eat at leat half your words?
2. If Obama does prove to be an able and wise President, will you eat the balance of your words?
C'mon now... Public commitment time! :D:D

Keith Wilson
06-05-2008, 10:11 PM
The costs of running for national office are ridiculous, and the scrutiny of every word, then taken out of context to fabricate partisan rhetoric . . I entirely agree. That has happened to just about every candidate. It’s ridiculous.
I also think that its truly funny to read folks telling so many people to read Obama's books as if the books are Gospels according to Saint Obama. Heaven forbid that anyone talk about what the Bible says around this place and the comments are condemned by the very same ones that will drink the Kool-Ade in Obama's books telling others to read them and tell us that we are ignorant idiots for not reading them. This is truly silly. I've recommended that people read Obama's books so they can get a clear idea of what the guy thinks. The fellow's a politician, not any kind of messiah - better than most IMHO, but still just a politician. There have been some people here who have a seriously mistaken idea of what Obama stands for, and reading one of his books would give them accurate information. One very well might still decide to vote for someone else, and that's fine; it's a free country, and there are plenty of good reasons to vote against him. But one's decision should be based on accurate information; that's your mininal responsibility as a citizen. I have never, ever, told anyone he was an ignorant idiot for not reading the books. I have pointed out when someone has an obviously erroneous idea about what Obama thinks, and recommended reading his own words for a truer picture.

The Bigfella
06-05-2008, 10:30 PM
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6076155,00.jpg

pila
06-06-2008, 12:15 AM
I believe that anyone who would switch to a different party and candidate because of irritation on the primary, doesn't know the issues, and is just being stubborn about it. Like, "I'll fix them, I'll switch to the other guy". Hope they clean their gun after shooting themselves in the foot.

pila
06-06-2008, 12:31 AM
I would think universal healthcare is going to cost big bucks no matter what. Of course if one or two months worth of the cost of the war was used for it, it may get off the ground. That's like 10, or 20 billion bucks according the news media reports.

johnw
06-06-2008, 12:34 AM
If he turns out to be a good president??????? How can that be? The only good one and his wife has been thrown under the train, old fashion and out of style this past year or so.:p



Now, who could you possibly be referring to?

Can I offer you a drink? It's the hippest one around.

glenallen
06-06-2008, 12:47 AM
Now, who could you possibly be referring to?

Can I offer you a drink? It's the hippest one around.

What kinda drink?
Koolade? Hmmm! What flavor?
Cherry?
Yuuk! Loser!
Okay, gimme a tank of gasoline and I'll drink your Cherry Koolade.

WX
06-06-2008, 02:11 AM
I can tell you now, if Australians were forced to go through what you guys are going though there would be a revolt! Christ the lead up to our last one was bad enough.

The Bigfella
06-06-2008, 02:15 AM
The result was worse

johnw
06-06-2008, 01:03 PM
Yes, well, you don't give the politicians as much warning before the contest, which in my view is a very good thing.

WX
06-07-2008, 01:36 AM
Bigfella....rubbish. How could it possibly be worse...oh, Nelson could have got in!

PeterSibley
06-07-2008, 02:17 AM
Bigfella....rubbish. How could it possibly be worse...oh, Nelson could have got in!:D:D:D:D:D