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ishmael
05-27-2008, 11:24 AM
There have been a few stories recently here in Maine. Mostly intimate relationships gone awry. We had a murder suicide last week; a long time couple who had broken up and were trying to reconcile. Not successfully, apparently.

I've had that red rage just once. Relationship. It passed rather quickly, but it was there for maybe five minutes. Glad the woman and a loaded rifle weren't handy, cause when the blood is up any of us is capable of killing. After it passed I was a little ashamed to have had such emotion. Not hugely ashamed, but it did make me sit down and ponder about my human capacities. Because I'm by nature a reconciler that emotion took me by surprise. But it was definately there, the impulse to do murder.

Spin_Drift
05-27-2008, 11:56 AM
My, my, that's pretty heavy Ish...:eek:

Paul Pless
05-27-2008, 11:59 AM
cause when the blood is up any of us is capable of killing
I disagree.

Dutch
05-27-2008, 11:59 AM
Most of the husband wife or lover type murders hapen when one or more participants are under the influence of some kind of mood altering substance. Thats a fact.

elf
05-27-2008, 12:00 PM
Happened to me once. Scared the **** out of me. I didn't know I had that in me - that rage.

Never did it again, but had it done to me once too. Moved out two days later. Took 2 days to pack and organize friends to get moved.

ishmael
05-27-2008, 12:02 PM
It was heavy, very heavy, so I'm glad that shines through. I was willing, there just for a few minutes, to kill without any reason except I'd been cuckolded.

If you haven't been there you haven't quite lived.;)

Tar Devil
05-27-2008, 12:05 PM
It was heavy, very heavy, so I'm glad that shines through. I was willing, there just for a few minutes, to kill without any reason except I'd been cuckolded.

If you haven't been there you haven't quite lived.;)

I've been through far, far worse than being "cuckolded" without fighting that impulse.

Far worse...

Spin_Drift
05-27-2008, 12:16 PM
I think I'd have that impulse if my family member would be kidnapped and badly hurt or murdered.

I think I best leave it at that...

Wild Dingo
05-27-2008, 12:16 PM
Jack... its there its within us all... even the most meek quiet gentle have such rage.

Personally Ive felt its touch and recently sadly to my shame Ive felt it... but it IS something that you can control even in the absolute pitch of passion you CAN control it... a rider added after reading the above posts... it can be controlled EXCEPT when the person has partaken of mind altering drugs ie: cocaine ice etc note I do not include maryjane)

Its not so much the anger but what CHOICE you choose to make when you feel such fury that matters... these mongrels and I do call them that because they are... they CHOOSE to remain and CHOOSE to become physically violent to the one they profess to love... the one person in their lives they profess to love above all others... they feel such fury that they are impelled to stay and destroy that person rather than choosing to leave walk away RUN AWAY for gods sake anything ANYTHING but hurt that person they love... no matter who you are YOU KNOW when your starting to loose control THAT IS THE MOMENT to leave!!... so leave... walk away run away get in the damned car and drive away... but when you stay when you choose to remain to "fight it out" "to have it out" "to sort it out" you CHOOSE to allow your rage to control you...

Rage is an emotion just like any other emotion it can be controlled... instead of controlling their rage emotion these mongrels allow their rage emotion to control them

In some ways its like the compulsion to win... win at all costs... if she does such and such she wins so I must loose I cant loose so she cant do such and such... pride also impacts to some degree the feeling that if they allow their partner to "get off" or "get away" with something their very manhood is somehow threatened... so they allow their anger and rage to take control... irrational rage born of scorned love or "intimate relationships gone awry" can also be a part of depression and the anger being turn upon the one they love rather than being directed at themselves this though is seen as self destructive and I dont deserve to be destroyed they do! and blam they allow the rage emotion control.

Personally I think a lot of rage emotion especially with relationships is poorly directed by the one allowing it to control... often its based in insecurity within themselves their fears and personal lifetime insecurities play a major part.

But like ANY other emotion rage can be controlled... especially in the love relationship area... on reflection it also has a lot to do with a persons basic intrinsic nature their integrity their honesty with themselves and others and their ability to KNOW right from wrong and to be able to KNOW when to walk away... and when to RUN!!

Doing harm to someone you love or have loved for the term of a relationship particularily a long one is something I think anyway that goes to how you ACTUALLY feel about that person as an individual as your partner and what youve shared together over the period of the relationship... sadly many people in shattered relationships fail to even try to control their emotions particularily rage and fall into the trap constantly of letting their rage emotion take control at the slightest provocation... even percieved provocations... sadly in many shattered relationships the emotional hurt and pain along with isolation they feel lead them to believe assumptions about their once loving partner which may or may not be right but they beleive to be right and wont hear anything to the contrary and thus they build themselves into what they percieve to be a "righteous" anger and rage simply follows.

Shattered relationships are often a result of a lack of patience a lack of communication and a lack of understanding... what may have just been a need for a time away a break from life together a time to simply recharge and find some "me" time from a hectic life can be misconscrued into a desire to end the relationship when it never was intended to be... from then to frustration due to a lack of communication or even due to a lack of the ability to express their needs sufficiently for the other to understand... from their to anger as assumption fear and insecurities mount... then to rage... and then to the sad fact of violence and death of one or both of them (and yes sometimes even more sad of all of the children)

But equally sad is the failure to communicate... really communicate... When ANY couples communication breaks down eventually the relationship will break down... just a simple fact... but from that one simple fact rage can be born nurtured and through assumption fear and insecurity destruction either of the marriage itself or of the person can and does occur.

And sometimes... just sometimes... the person feeling the rage will step away... breathe... and slowly with time become aware of who their partner was and is and start to stop assuming stop the fear and stop their insecurities from controlling the feelings they have... and sometimes they can regain their relationship... with luck and love and communication it can work out without they will eventually end the relationship but hopefully with a better realization of themselves and their partner and so be able to end it and be able to move forward in their lives.

But rage is just an emotion a powerfull one but an emotion none the less and as such is controllable.

Well thats what I believe.

Shane

Dutch
05-27-2008, 12:28 PM
My question is

If it is justifiable rage, why do yo want to control it? I mean short of going to prison. Theres been a lot of good done in this world by folk sporting a muderous rage against the right people.

Lew Barrett
05-27-2008, 12:38 PM
I disagree.

As do I.

ishmael
05-27-2008, 12:44 PM
Yes, Shane, we control it. Well, some do. The guy here in Maine who gunned down his long time lover and then turned the gun on himself didn't have a good handle on it. There are, likely, other disturbances there. I'll wait forever and never hear what prescription drugs that guy was on.

You know I'm a fan of the Swiss shrink, Jung.

"I only let myself be angry if I can just as well not."

I was outraged when my lover took another. The murderous passion didn't last for long, but there for a moment I wanted to go murder her in her bed. And her damn lover, too! A long time ago. I don't hold such passions anymore, have a hard time imagining them after all these years. But I know them.

ishmael
05-27-2008, 01:01 PM
"As do I."

So, you and Paul are pacifists? You would never pick up arms to defend anything? If you really believe that, I respect that.

Personally, after long thought about it, I'd pick up whatever was near and try to kill the attacker if it were that sort of fight. I wouldn't like it. I haven't been in any kind of fight since I was ten, but I'd do it to defend kith and kin.

May none of us ever come to that.

Tar Devil
05-27-2008, 01:08 PM
Ish, now you're changing the criteria.

Joe (SoCal)
05-27-2008, 01:19 PM
You catch me in a especialy vendetta kind of mood you tell the angels in heaven you never saw evil so singularly personified as in the face of the man that killed you.

How's that for my answer ?

Popeye
05-27-2008, 01:21 PM
i know a guy who knows a guy

top dat

Paul Pless
05-27-2008, 01:31 PM
"As do I."

So, you and Paul are pacifists? You would never pick up arms to defend anything?I never said that... and for the record I've been in a few physical confrontations, never have I started a fight, and I've never found myself in such a rage that I lost the ability to reason or had the desire to kill somebody, even momentarily. I have seen it in others though, and I've also seen others allow themselves to be led into such a position. All I can say is that I don't or can't understand that range of emotion.

I have no problem defending myself or others. But that's not what your original premise was.

Joe (SoCal)
05-27-2008, 01:35 PM
i know a guy who knows a guy

top dat

I'm that guy ;)

Tom Montgomery
05-27-2008, 01:38 PM
So, you and Paul are pacifists? You would never pick up arms to defend anything?"Murderous rage" is not necessary to defend oneself.

elf
05-27-2008, 01:56 PM
Well, it's not defense. It's anger. And I think there are different amounts of anger for different types of people.

For instance, I doubt I would ever reach such a pitch of rage that I would actually kill someone. It seems, emotionally, completely out of my range, and it did at the time I mentioned.

But at that time I doubted I'd ever reach such a pitch of anger that I'd hit someone. That sort of behavior was completely outside my range then.

And, at that moment, when I would have hit the person because I was so angry, I still didn't. I could see myself on the verge of doing it, but still was able to not cross over into that much expression of my rage.

It was seeing myself verging on something so completely contrary to everything I've lived by that stunned me and caused me to see something in me that I had no idea was there.

These behaviors are not one extreme or another, Jack. Just because one experiences this sort of thing does not mean one is not pacific in essence. Choosing to express rage without violence, verbal or physical, does not necessarily make one a pacifist or weak.

Whether it makes one some sort of higher consciousness being or not is yet another aspect of the problem. Some never express rage with violence and chew their bodies to ulcerated shreds because they have no other mechanism to manage and dissipate the rage. Some simply never experience rage of that quality. Some have methods of managing their rage that don't take it out on either themselves or others - psychologically or physically.

But it is instructive, indeed, to discover that one has the kernal of that anger in one when it is so far outside ones sense of self.

LeeG
05-27-2008, 02:20 PM
I remember projectile vomiting, it was amazing.

huisjen
05-27-2008, 02:47 PM
There's the story about the samurai who was about to kill someone, but the guy spit in his face and the samurai got angry. He knew better than to fight while angry, so he walked away. You make stupid mistakes when angry.

bamamick
05-27-2008, 02:50 PM
As a freshman in high school I beat a guy's head to a pulp on a row of lockers because he was saying unkind things about my 'girlfriend'. He was a senior, and I was a 5'1", 130 pound 13 year old. This guy never came back to school, and eventually joined the Air Force and left town. I had to go and sit with my father and be interviewed by detectives from the Mobile Police Department. I suppose that you could call that 'murderous anger' if you wanted to. Not proud of it, it just happened.

Along similiar lines I once had one of my brother-in-laws point a loaded shotgun at my head, and I walked up and snatched it out of his hands. It took every last ounce of self control to keep from bashing his skull in with it. If he hadn't been crying I probably would have.

Maybe it's the Scots-Irish blood? I don't know what it is, but it is there, and as many people have said, it is the ability to control it that separates the men from the monsters. I do admit that upon occasion that I could have been classified as a monster. My wife has seen a tiny glimpse of this once or twice, but only the tiniest of glimpses. My kids have never seen it. But it's there.

Mickey Lake

Chris Ostlind
05-27-2008, 02:50 PM
Rage is it?

Self defense is it?

Induced mood alteration is it?

Have any of you folks ever killed another human being... for whatever reason?

Dutch
05-27-2008, 04:47 PM
You catch me in a especialy vendetta kind of mood you tell the angels in heaven you never saw evil so singularly personified as in the face of the man that killed you.

How's that for my answer ?

Tootie Toot


Another internet tough guy. ;)

Joe (SoCal)
05-27-2008, 04:55 PM
Fart


Another internet tough guy. ;)

Bwaaaaaaa ha ha :D this from an Internet troll who hides behind a screenname and no real information, who has to beg Scot to help him not get picked on. A nameless faceless intermet tuff guy who's afraid to attend any real life forum function.

I'll be at leftys party and Mystic this year, will you my good fellow?

Edited to add: my comment was a parody of Christopher Walken's dialog in "True Romance"

Dutch
05-27-2008, 05:13 PM
Bwaaaaaaa ha ha :D this from an Internet troll who hides behind a screenname and no real information, who has to beg Scot to help him mot get picked on. A nameless faceless intermet tuff guy who's afraid to attend any real life forum function.

I'll be at leftys party and Mystic this year, will you my good fellow?

Edited to add: my comment was a parody of Christopher Walken in "True Romance"


I dont beg anyone for anything.

As far as meeting up with you, or anyone else I dont trust and has repeatedly threatened me, I follow this sage advice. You may want to try and remember it.;)


The spot where we intend to fight must not be
made known; for then the enemy will have to prepare
against a possible attack at several different points;
and his forces being thus distributed in many directions,
the numbers we shall have to face at any given point will
be proportionately few.
and


Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.

Joe (SoCal)
05-27-2008, 05:21 PM
Cow

Dutch
05-27-2008, 05:28 PM
Pussywillows

got it :)

Joe (SoCal)
05-27-2008, 05:34 PM
got it :)

Proove it ;)

Besides you already admitted you are, in you so OBVIOUSLY deleted posts ;) hmmmmmm rotflol

I'm so much smarter and faster than you will ever be on this Dutchy

paladin
05-27-2008, 05:37 PM
Dan beat me to it....getting mad messes with your aim......

Tylerdurden
05-27-2008, 05:40 PM
Agreed Chuck. If you get mad walk away.

Revenge is best served cold.

ishmael
05-27-2008, 06:02 PM
Pistols at thirty paces.;)

Some interesting thoughts here. To know that one holds that capacity is a good thing, seems to me. Mine raged just that one time, and it never came close to action. My first impulse is to negotiate, but I have been in circumstances where that wasn't possible. My second impulse, unless I'm defending someone dear, is to retreat. I hope I never know my third impulse again. Killing is permanent.

As a sometime student of the human mind the stories that are truly disturbing are the ones involving premeditation. Rage and hot blooded murder kinda make sense, but you look at people who spend weeks or months planning it if you want a real shiver. There was a story on the toob the other night about a black widow. Twice she killed her husband for the life insurance. Anti-freeze in the tea. It was only the insistence of the men's families that caught her. Officialdom was writing the deaths off as severe food poisoning. A cold blooded murderer.

That is much more difficult for me to get a handle on.

Memphis Mike
05-27-2008, 06:06 PM
I would kill for Paris.

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Paris-Hilton-ta04.jpg

Tylerdurden
05-27-2008, 06:12 PM
I thought you would kill for a fifth?

Ron Williamson
05-27-2008, 06:12 PM
I do better when I throw a nice little tantrum every month or so.
I used to choke it down,but that's too stressful.
R

johngsandusky
05-27-2008, 07:12 PM
People are different. You don't really know what might happen until you're in that spot. On a personal level, I've been angry enough to dream of murder night and day. But I didn't do it. Maybe only because I don't want to do the prison time. Maybe because I'm too decent, or too optimistic. I have worked with men who have shot others, and some who have killed others. I've held a pistol under a man's chin, finger on the trigger, while I wrestled the gun from his hand. I didn't shoot him because I didn't think I had to. He was crazy, but I kind of hope he's doing alright somewhere.

ishmael
05-27-2008, 07:36 PM
Animals teach us. Catawumpous when she first arrived was hand shy because someone, a person, had hit her. After three years of showing her I'm not going to hurt her she now rises to my hand, invites it. It took a long time, because it was ingrained in her that the human hand hurts, but she learned.

It's real recent. To have her say I know now is good. Rise to meet the hand which is benevolent.

Woxbox
05-27-2008, 07:38 PM
I disagree.

That's logic, but logic isn't what drives people in these situations. Other stuff takes over, and no one can say what they would or wouldn't do in unusual situations that they've never encountered.

Joe (SoCal)
05-27-2008, 07:41 PM
Anybody remember the movie "Straw Dogs" ?

paladin
05-27-2008, 07:53 PM
At one stage in my life I have on more than one ocassion faced down someone with firearms and other weapons, and took them, and let it pass.....
I can't do that now. I can't play with a 5 year old grandson without the heart skipping a few beats, can't breath. If placed in a similar situation today, I would be forced to try to remain as calm as possible, then either kill or permanently disable the opponent. No negotiations. and I cheat.

ishmael
05-27-2008, 07:58 PM
Anybody remember the movie "Straw Dogs"

Yeah, it's quite a film. Peckinpaw was the director if memory serves. Dustin Hoffman, an innocent math professor on extended holiday.

Very violent. I watched that film with mother and brother Bill, and all of us came out of the theater a bit taken aback. Peckinpaw had a well earned reputation as a blood and guts director. That setting, in a country home in England really defined it. I can't say I like it much. Hofmann, meek and mild till the climax, really gets his mojo working.

LeeG
05-27-2008, 08:06 PM
I like glaring at cars sometimes

Joe (SoCal)
05-27-2008, 08:11 PM
Cow
:mad: PROOF !!!!!!! That Dutch is in Scots clique.

I did not post cow,
I did not post wow,
I did not post anyhow...


Scot deliberatly ALTERED my post.

This is TOTALY UNCALLED FOR AND A FOUL ON HIS ETHICS AND MODERATING OF THIS FORUM !!!!!

SHAME ON YOU SCOT :mad:

Wild Wassa
05-27-2008, 08:18 PM
I have always thought that one of the weakest issues with western criminal law is that it doesn't allow an open season ... on patronizing Fascists.

What needs doing, is not done as a malicious act ... but only done as a useful public service, of course.

Warren.

Joe (SoCal)
05-27-2008, 08:29 PM
:mad: PROOF !!!!!!! That Dutch is in Scots clique.

I did not post cow,
I did not post wow,
I did not post anyhow...


Scot deliberatly ALTERED my post.

This is TOTALY UNCALLED FOR AND A FOUL ON HIS ETHICS AND MODERATING OF THIS FORUM !!!!!

SHAME ON YOU SCOT :mad:


Wow again I did not post the aditional Dr. Sues part.

Either scot has gone off his meds or someone can hack my screenname.

Rigadog
05-27-2008, 08:33 PM
". . . from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee."

Wild Dingo
05-27-2008, 08:35 PM
That's logic, but logic isn't what drives people in these situations. Other stuff takes over, and no one can say what they would or wouldn't do in unusual situations that they've never encountered.

Thats it exactly I suppose... while at one particular time one may be able to completely control their rage emotion given another time place environment and effectors they may not... but it remains an emotion and therefore controllable... BY CHOICE.

The "heat of passion" that leads to crimes of passion is not an excuse its a lack of control... which as humans we all experience at some point in our lives...

Actually when it comes down to it... ALL of life what we do think say how we act and are is a matter of choice nothing is really chance but rather a set of choices that we make and the effects of that choice lead us to a particular place event or emotional state... we choose what we do say think and how we act in public and in private

Sadly we more often than not will treat the one we profess to love above all others with less respect dignity care nurture and love than we do our friends workmates or collegues... therefore is it not a wonder that at times those we love above all others will do say or act in a way that is totally unexpected and unlike them to act? no its not... love is a street paved with choices

How we ourselves act speak interact with our partners everyday impacts on them and their emotions and so they will react to that whether instantly or over time matters not the fact is that they are also human and WILL react... some people I believe are "reactors" who hold their emotions so close to the surface that they will react to any and all slights weather pecieved or real instantly and sometimes violently... others will react slowly over time sometimes reletively short periods of time others can take years but react they will... and its more often than not the first that will be the ones that react with increased violence and "passion" whilst the others will more often than not react with an increased contempt that leads to loathing and so they either leave suddenly or the "passion" to anger and snarling "spats" increases... thus one feeds of the other

In relationships over time each partner KNOWS the other well... they KNOW without even thinking what buttons to push to rile the other to push the other away to make the other react in a known way... and this also can be a catalist for frustration hurt and on to violence

More often than not the downward slide in a shattered relationship begins with a) a lack of true deep communication with each other then progesses to b) a lack of care for oneself c) a lack of care for the other d) a lack of pride in oneself e) a lack of pride in the other and it begins a swirling style of living that gradually builds toward anger and more often than one would suppose violence as the hurt emotional pain and lack of care and pride esculate to a general lack of self worth and self esteem... till something has to crack.

Communication of needs wants desires hurts pains is vital in ANY relationship between two people... PARTICULARILY in a loving relationship for without it time will cause the split and that then can lead to violence.

Each of us has the POTENTIAL for increadible violent rage within us NO MATTER who you are it IS there... weather just under the surface or hidden deep within you it is there... all thats needed to bring it out like an erupting volcano is the right set of circumstances the right emotional state and it can occur.

Rightly said by others rage is the WRONG emotion to wage a war battle fight or argument... it does not achieve any good result for anyone... far better is to stop BREATHE and try to hold on...

Funny thinking about this... if one imagines the state they are in when they get angry what is the first thing one does? One STOPS breathing you hold your breath!!... but if you walk away run away whatever and take the time... months if necessary... to slow it down consider and BREATHE 9 times out of 10 what got you worked up into anger or rage was not that bad after all...

Take the time to stop and breathe consider the person what they are like how they have been over the time youve been together consider what they may well be feeling... and maybe it wont be what you think and assume it is... maybe... and perhaps if you have done so early enough before your mouth got in the way of your brain and hasnt said something increadibly hurtfull so hurtfull that forgiveness is impossible then maybe reconsiliation is possible?... or not... but you wont have a bloody snowballs chance in hell if you dont stop and just BREATHE

Anger and rage ARE controllable but you have to be prepared to walk away... and thats where stupid bloody pride gets most in trouble... its seen as week to walk away from an arguement of fight its seen as unmanly to let a woman win or in control... as the husband its seen by what our society dictates that we should be in control and thus pride kicks in and we feel undermined by our partners... thus does control go out the window and anger frustration and violence come in.

Many factors can contribute... in the home with the kids with what we do work and home how we ourselves contribute and how we ourselves are toward our partners can in obvious and in subtle ways cause frustration hurt and confusion in our partners who will more times than not hold it in bottle it up say nothing... and communication stops... and this then starts the downward spiral

Sadly it is more often and commonplace than any suspect... and crosses all socio-economic barriers... a sad indictment on our societies and our humanity that we often fail to see feel and hear what those we profess to deeply love and care for simply because we fail to communicate the simple needs wants fears and concerns we have... or listen really deeply and respectfully listen to theirs... we may not think something could possibly such a problem to ourselves but to them our loving partner it IS a problem and so we more often than not treat it with contempt snide comments disrespect or ignorance... and this then hurts them more

AND!!!... us blokes have no friggin idea of the inner workings of the female psych... NONE WHATEVER!!... and more so as they age and their bodies and hormones and such change which impacts on their state of mind... us blokes are just not attuned to it... and often we think what is a "mood" isnt a mood at all but a state of depression a state of yearning for something more something different some time "just for me"... we become so wrapped up in what we are doing to earn a crust to provide for our families whats conserning us whats affecting us that we forget what our partners are doing what they are feeling how they are doing emotionally mentally and physically... oh we might see changes (weight loss/gain a lack of energy a drawing of the skin of her face etc) or think "man wonder why shes so phissed lately" but we dont consider what EXACTLY might be the problem we just think "she'll get over it" and go on our merry way... but they dont... thinking about that as we age together as a couple one would think and expect that we would become closer and more attuned to each other and some do but most dont... and hence a deterioration in the relationship occurs with a buildup of frustration hurt anger bitterness etc... and meanwhile the other partner is also feeling phissed of frustrated hurt angry bitter... and they dont talk they stop breathing and so trouble balloons.

ah life tis a strange thing indeed

pcford
05-27-2008, 08:40 PM
stupidest thread in some time. and that's saying something.

uh, thank you ish.

contented
05-27-2008, 08:40 PM
what ever happened to quietly pissing in a mans well?

shamus
05-27-2008, 08:47 PM
:mad: PROOF !!!!!!! That Dutch is in Scots clique.

I did not post cow,
I did not post wow,
I did not post anyhow...


Scot deliberatly ALTERED my post.

This is TOTALY UNCALLED FOR AND A FOUL ON HIS ETHICS AND MODERATING OF THIS FORUM !!!!!

SHAME ON YOU SCOT :mad:
Hilarious.
When Tyler said this everyone thought he was kookoo.

Rigadog
05-27-2008, 08:47 PM
Not all cultures are as violent as ours. We've all seen too many movies where force is the best solution. We are steeped in it. The only reason to kill is in self-defense, anything else is just the ego talking. But all of this of course applies only to the sane. Mental illness is a whole other ballgame - and I'm not talking about "temporary insanity", which is a real state, but no excuse.

Tom Montgomery
05-27-2008, 08:53 PM
Wow again I did not post the aditional Dr. Sues part.

Either scot has gone off his meds or someone can hack my screenname.Why don't you email the administrator and ask?

LeeG
05-27-2008, 08:56 PM
http://www.guitarmusic.org/kottke/gcombat.html

[My father] had a degree...I'm going to come to the end of this but I ...he had a degree in physical education. As a result of that, when he was drafted during the war he was booked -- however you want to put it -- to train recruits in hand-to-hand combat. What this means is something that's a little too spooky to contemplate but for me what it meant was when we moved to Cheyenne, where we lived for a couple of years -- and we moved ever couple of years everywhere, I was performing my usual function as the new kid in town which is to be beaten up on a daily basis. And as much as I liked leaving the town I had been in and moving to a new place, I didn't enjoy fulfilling my role as a punching bag, so I asked my father to teach me how to defend myself. That was a mistake. I won't get into that. He sort of demonstrated...uh...well....he -- well, never mind...he...I shouldn't have asked him that.

What I did instead, after licking my wounds, was look up the book that he had on hand-to-hand combat. It was the instruction manual. I had never really spent much time looking at it because he had another one on jungle diseases. It's like pornography. You start looking at a jungle disease book and you get sicker as you go along but you can't stop.

In the combat book, which was made up largely of pictures, with little -- about six pictures to a page -- with little captions. The first thing that I remember seeing was a photo of a guy in an aviator helmet, who was evidently the good guy, poking a stick in the eye of the other guy who had no helmet.

I rejected that possibility because nobody was poking sticks in my eye and it is a little out of line. I kept looking and there's one that I remember fondly, when the guy in the aviator helmet is spitting in the other guys face and the caption to that is something like, "Even in the head of battle your enemy will be offended and shocked when you spit on him." And in the time it takes for him to register all of these reactions, you can poke him in the eye with your stick.

If I was off to war, I'd want more than spit on my side.

Tom Montgomery
05-27-2008, 09:00 PM
It must be a full moon.

shamus
05-27-2008, 09:01 PM
Oh no, not Erasmus, father of the enlightenment..

Memphis Mike
05-27-2008, 09:09 PM
It's pretty poor. Scot let the worst troll of all back on the forum and now they're crawlin outa the woodwork.

Nice going, Scot.

You never should have let Tylerdurdan and Jack Heinlin back on here, either.

Woxbox
05-27-2008, 09:15 PM
Another point for those who don't think this is the most stupid thread ever....

The only real difference between those in prison and those out is that those in are more inclined to act first and think later. And the experts haven't figured out how to teach such people to take a moment and think first. But it's all a matter of degrees. I figure everyone has their limit of tolerance, beyond which point they just act.

Rigadog
05-27-2008, 09:28 PM
So was William Golding right? Naw... I think most of us are basically pretty good. Reason: it feels better to do a good thing than a bad thing. It's a positive feedback loop, there to help us get past stupid, base emotions. It's intrinsic, like liking a melody over dissonance. You can get used to dissonance, but it's not our natural state.

Woxbox
05-27-2008, 09:37 PM
So was William Golding right? Naw... I think most of us are basically pretty good. Reason: it feels better to do a good thing than a bad thing. It's a positive feedback loop, there to help us get past stupid, base emotions. It's intrinsic, like liking a melody over dissonance. You can get used to dissonance, but it's not our natural state.


I'm not assuming good or bad in any of this. People do very good things impulsively too -- running into burning buildings to save kids or pets even, for example. We judge after the fact whether the impulse was a good one or a bad one. And there's plenty of examples where impulsive killings have been deemed good and the right thing.

skuthorp
05-27-2008, 09:44 PM
"I think most of us are basically pretty good"
Any military training manual will tell you it is difficult to train men to kill each other. That said modern computer games are quite good at doing just that. Some are less inhibited than others, some are so self centred that "its always about me" applies. Just the other day a man stabbed his ex girlfriend and then committed suicide with a head-on collision with an innocent unknown party on a public road. Drugs legal and otherwise make a difference where natural inhibitions apply, enhance anger and any sense of injustice. Un or under employment makes a difference too especially to men who feel the loss of 'traditional' power and roles. It's a problem that will continue to be felt I think.

Tom Montgomery
05-27-2008, 09:53 PM
Wow again I did not post the aditional Dr. Sues part.

Either scot has gone off his meds or someone can hack my screenname.


Datz phunee. Maebee itz Tabee gurl cuz yew sae sheez gut yur knumber.

No, it was Scot. Joe has booked. I don't blame him. I'll miss the pics and vids of Tidbit. The trolls have won. :(

Tabitha ( Gaff rig girl )
05-27-2008, 10:06 PM
No, it was Scot. Joe has booked. I don't blame him. I'll miss the pics and vids of Tidbit. The trolls have won. :(

I'll still post the pics and videos ;)

And for those who think I may have "altered" Joes post...sorry, Tabby doesn't play like that :rolleyes:

pcford
05-27-2008, 10:26 PM
:mad: PROOF !!!!!!! That Dutch is in Scots clique.

I did not post cow,
I did not post wow,
I did not post anyhow...


Scot deliberatly ALTERED my post.

This is TOTALY UNCALLED FOR AND A FOUL ON HIS ETHICS AND MODERATING OF THIS FORUM !!!!!

SHAME ON YOU SCOT :mad:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Like I said. Stupidest thread ever.

Ish, you do have the knack.

Wild Dingo
05-27-2008, 11:19 PM
Ish, you do have the knack.

The boy is good isnt he! :D Funny when you think about it these trolls come waltzing in with their garbage and stalking crud go to amazing lengths to phiss people off... and heres young Jack been here for years just posts a simple statement and all hell breaks loose... without even trying!!! :D

Lew Barrett
05-27-2008, 11:42 PM
so if you saw hitler walking down the street , and you had the foresight , what would you do ..

offer him a stick of gum ?

Of course not. But I prefer to think I'm in control or my own rages and would, if I killed, kill not in a rage, but for a reason that would allow me to accept the consequences with my head held high. I'd be pure Murder 1, if you get the drift. I wish to be thought a man.

Wild Dingo
05-27-2008, 11:48 PM
Of course not. But I prefer to think I'm in control or my own rages and would, if I killed, kill not in a rage, but for a reason that would allow me to accept the consequences with my head held high. I'd be pure Murder 1, if you get the drift. I wish to be thought a man.

aahh there it be eh... pride... damnable hell of a nuisence is pride... I mean a fella cant even go kill some buggar without pride gettin the way what next? eh??? WHAT NEXT I SAY!!! the worlds goin to shyte in a handbasket I tells yer!! :rolleyes:

Lew Barrett
05-27-2008, 11:49 PM
"As do I."

So, you and Paul are pacifists? You would never pick up arms to defend anything? If you really believe that, I respect that.

Personally, after long thought about it, I'd pick up whatever was near and try to kill the attacker if it were that sort of fight. I wouldn't like it. I haven't been in any kind of fight since I was ten, but I'd do it to defend kith and kin.

May none of us ever come to that.

I think you really missed the point, as did Popeye. I believe that rage is not the factor that would make me a killer. Wartime experiences excepted. If it were, I'd surely have killed already, as I rage like any other man. Perhaps worse. I feel tremendous anger about many things, from idiots in traffic to far, far worse behavior from supposed human beings. And yes, I've been betrayed. But that's not what would cause me to kill. As I said, were it to be so, there would be a dead man on my conscience already. I just consider myself......thoughtful, and in as much as I am able, in control.

Lew Barrett
05-27-2008, 11:50 PM
aahh there it be eh... pride... damnable hell of a nuisence is pride... I mean a fella cant even go kill some buggar without pride gettin the way what next? eh??? WHAT NEXT I SAY!!! the worlds goin to shyte in a handbasket I tells yer!! :rolleyes:

Hardly that, though I still have some. What's so hard to understand? I consider it wisdom, not pride, that would keep a person from killing in anger.

The Bigfella
05-27-2008, 11:56 PM
I just can't believe the way the courts accept excuses like rage, alcohol and drugs when they sentence someone for murder. We had a case in the Northern Territory a week or so back - a guy killed his wife - bashed her to death, was convicted and got 4 1/2 years. I reckon the Judge ought be made serve the rest of a life term for that.

Wild Dingo
05-27-2008, 11:57 PM
Lew me ol china plate... if you hadnt noticed Im in one hell of a good mood here so dont you go tryin to spoil it okay? ;) I was pullin yer leg ol son! :rolleyes: :p

Lew Barrett
05-28-2008, 12:02 AM
Lew me ol china plate... if you hadnt noticed Im in one hell of a good mood here so dont you go tryin to spoil it okay? ;) I was pullin yer leg ol son! :rolleyes: :p

Thank you for that. I was seriously thinking about how to go about it:D:D. I do believe we understand each other now, Shane!

Lew Barrett
05-28-2008, 12:06 AM
I just can't believe the way the courts accept excuses like rage, alcohol and drugs when they sentence someone for murder. We had a case in the Northern Territory a week or so back - a guy killed his wife - bashed her to death, was convicted and got 4 1/2 years. I reckon the Judge ought be made serve the rest of a life term for that.

Interesting you mention it. There's a case in Seattle being tried as we speak. A fella walked into a Jewish organization here last year and started popping some caps. Shot six, killed one. He was angry about the way things were. Happens the organization, B'nai B'rith is more or less the Jewish Ladies Benevolent League. In fact, that's how it translates. Anyway, his defense now? Insanity. Hey, if he was really insane, he wouldn't be offering a defense. Prima facie.

The Bigfella
05-28-2008, 12:10 AM
I've said it before - there's some crimes out there that I'd be prepared to don the hangman's hood for the execution. First murder victim I saw was an 18 year old girl with 30+ stab wounds in her - face, hands, etc - done by her jilted (older) boyfriend. Give me the rope - I'd hang him.

skuthorp
05-28-2008, 12:18 AM
It seems a part of our make-up, the desire for revenge. But is it any worse than a cold administrative legal process to achieve the same thing? A man executed in 1922 has been exonerated recently, the papers at the time were baying for blood, anyones blood, and their behavior probably tipped the scale against an innocent man. A belt and braces approach to guilt or innocence should forbid capital punishment. But if it was your child?

johnw
05-28-2008, 12:22 AM
I covered the police beat for a paper in West Texas for six months. Wrote about a lot of crimes, including half a dozen murders. I never wrote about a case where I thought the crime was something a normal human being would do. Most murders are the product of callusness more than anything else. I took on two beats to get out of the police beat.

Lew Barrett
05-28-2008, 12:25 AM
Australia doesn't practice capitol punishment anymore, does it?

Lew Barrett
05-28-2008, 12:27 AM
Oh yes John. You are exactly right. Rage I can understand. Moving beyond it, that's not normal.

skuthorp
05-28-2008, 12:29 AM
No Lew, not since Feb. 1967, the last execution here had a political and authoritarian element to it as well.

Lew Barrett
05-28-2008, 12:32 AM
As I remembered. We're the last of the barbarians here.

The Bigfella
05-28-2008, 12:34 AM
Last (legal) execution here was over 40 years ago IIRC. Ronald Ryan. Shot a prison guard during an escape.

There's been a few executions carried out without having to go through the court system.

skuthorp
05-28-2008, 12:35 AM
It depends how you look at it though, the Chinese view it as a resource to be exploited, mined if you like.

johnw
05-28-2008, 12:59 AM
Ish, I don't get you. I've been cuckolded as well. Why would I mess up my life over someone who just showed she wasn't worth it? If your lover proves differently faithful, she demonstrated she doesn't love you, so why let her mess you up? That's probably what she's shooting for. Much better to say, sorry babe, you aren't good enough to care that much about. Then, the power is yours, and you've still got control of yourself.

skuthorp
05-28-2008, 01:43 AM
I went back and read the start Ish, no one owns anyone else, commercial matters can be sorted. Learn to live with yourself first, everything else is a bonus.

pcford
05-28-2008, 01:49 AM
I went back and read the start Ish, no one owns anyone else, commercial matters can be sorted. Learn to live with yourself first, everything else is a bonus.

Jeebus. Actually a lot of good philosophy here tonight. Learned that myself about 25 years ago. Nobody has control over anyone else in matters of the heart.

johnw
05-28-2008, 02:07 AM
Jeebus. Actually a lot of good philosophy here tonight. Learned that myself about 25 years ago. Nobody has control over anyone else in matters of the heart.

But you've still got control of yourself, if no one else.

A shrink I know told me that in cases of violence provoked by infidelity, if the guy is under 35 he tends to kill the guy. If he's over 35, he tends to kill the woman, having, by this time, learned that all men are hounds, and therefore having decided to blame the woman. Neither makes sense to me. If she doesn't care about you, why should you care about her? If she's trying to provoke a reaction, it better be you walking away, because that's what she's going to get.

Rational Root
05-28-2008, 02:18 AM
People are strange.

Some people freeze up under pressure, some people show a frightening calm.

Funny thing is, like a box of chocolates which no index card, you don't know what you got until you bite.

People are strange until you remember that ultimately we are emotional animals with a very thin veneer of something that vaguely approximates reason and logic.

Rational Root
05-28-2008, 02:22 AM
Yes, but given the choice of stick or no stick....


http://www.guitarmusic.org/kottke/gcombat.html

...
...
"Even in the head of battle your enemy will be offended and shocked when you spit on him." And in the time it takes for him to register all of these reactions, you can poke him in the eye with your stick.

If I was off to war, I'd want more than spit on my side.

tattooed john
05-28-2008, 03:28 AM
I'm weak and a coward.

I only feel murderous and irrational rage towards people that are smaller and weaker than me.

Faced by any realistic threat to my own wellbeing and I'm going to rise above ;).

ishmael
05-28-2008, 04:39 AM
"Ish, I don't get you. I've been cuckolded as well. Why would I mess up my life over someone who just showed she wasn't worth it?"

I didn't, and wouldn't. That was part of my point. When confronted with the emotion I didn't pick up a weapon. I sat down and had a long look at myself. It startled me that I could even imagine it, but being honest there it was. It passed, quickly. I didn't like seeing myself in that light, but I didn't hide from it. Some of our regulars might take a lesson from that. There are ways to commit small murder just with words.

What huppened with Joe? Someone was using his screen name? That's weird. This place always seems to have its share of drama. I posted my original question out of genuine curiosity and it has developed some interesting conversation. Ya know, if you find a topic or a poster boring or stupid no one is holding gun to your head.;)

Dutch
05-28-2008, 07:12 AM
Tootie Toot


Another internet tough guy. ;)

Tootie toot?:rolleyes:

Does anyone seriously think this is what I said?

I need an explanation!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Sam F
05-28-2008, 10:11 AM
It's not for nothing that anger is a deady sin

Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that

brought countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did

it send hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a

prey to dogs and vultures, for so were the counsels of Jove

fulfilled from the day on which the son of Atreus, king of men,

and great Achilles, first fell out with one another. (Homer)

paladin
05-28-2008, 10:32 AM
Never, ever, get mad and try to kill someone. If you're gonna do it.....calm yourself, breath deeply, relax.....a target is a target and anger messes with your aim. In close quarters a pencil will do fine, at medium distances a bow is much quieter than a suppressed weapon, at long ranges, the suppressor is fine, but the muzzle blast will lay down the grass or kick up dust 10-15 meters in front of the weapon. Caution, calmness and planning....if you really dunno like the troll a little ground glass in his hamburger....arsenic is fine but not too much, too large a dose will make someone regurgitate it. Natural stuff am better...an asp in bed, scorpions or the like. If the person keeps a firearm around, snitch some bullets, remove the lead, pour out the powder, reseat the bullet on top of C4....he'll get a bang out of it.

ishmael
05-28-2008, 10:38 AM
Good quote from Homer!

Getting back to the film, "Straw Dogs." That is Peckinpaw's masterpiece. It's very difficult to watch, I think I only saw it in original release, but I remember being terribly stricken by it.

In it a mild mannered, peaceful, professor of mathematics, played by a young just off his success in "The Graduate " Dustin Hoffman, puts his foot down. He says, NO. I'm gonna fight you assholes. What transpires is a man defending his home against yahoos. Justly so. It is very violent and on the edge of your seat film making.

Dutch
05-28-2008, 11:38 AM
I said:

SOMEONE HAS CHANGED MY POST DAMNIT!:D:D

Sam F
05-28-2008, 12:52 PM
Good quote from Homer!...
And they're the very first words. It's not too big a stretch to say that the entire Illiad is an exploration of anger and it's effects.

Canoez
05-28-2008, 12:57 PM
I said:

SOMEONE HAS CHANGED MY POST DAMNIT!:D:D

We'll be expecting evidence.

8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was...

:D:D:D

johnw
05-28-2008, 01:54 PM
"Straw Dogs" was a bloody awful film. It looked like the revenge fantasy of a director who had been powerless in dealing with bullies as a kid. Peckinpaw had issues. So does anyone who thinks that was a great film.

pcford
05-28-2008, 02:15 PM
Never, ever, get mad and try to kill someone. If you're gonna do it.....calm yourself, breath deeply, relax.....a target is a target and anger messes with your aim. In close quarters a pencil will do fine, at medium distances a bow is much quieter than a suppressed weapon, at long ranges, the suppressor is fine, but the muzzle blast will lay down the grass or kick up dust 10-15 meters in front of the weapon. Caution, calmness and planning....if you really dunno like the troll a little ground glass in his hamburger....arsenic is fine but not too much, too large a dose will make someone regurgitate it. Natural stuff am better...an asp in bed, scorpions or the like. If the person keeps a firearm around, snitch some bullets, remove the lead, pour out the powder, reseat the bullet on top of C4....he'll get a bang out of it.

Many people have a confusion between their penis and firearms. One of the major problems in this country today.

Over the last weekend a guy shot two people at a festival at Seattle Center. He had a concealed weapons permit, was sporting a ankle holster and was schizophrenic.

I've been around firearms all my life. I can tell them from an intimate body part.

Bragging about a concealed weapons permit from "Hank Kissinger," arguably one of the major international criminals of the last century, only makes the situation more sad and tacky.

ishmael
05-28-2008, 02:23 PM
I didn't say it was a great film, I said it was HIS great film. You do see the difference?

I was appalled by it. I don't much like Peckinpaw. But to ignore his influence is to be blinded. What are the Terminator films but one long Peckinpaw riff with a few clever sci-fi plot twists thrown across the plate? Kill, kill, I've got blood and guts and veins in my teeth!

Did Peckinpaw ever try his hand at, um, a sensitive film? I'm quite sure not. His meat and potatoes was that raw violence.

Though I don't like the film, I do see the honesty in it. Hoffman does take on those attackers rather effectively, cleverly. OK, the house is under attack, let's boil some water and get that bear trap off the wall. Any port in a storm.

John of Phoenix
05-28-2008, 03:05 PM
As anger dulls one's senses, fear most surely heightens them.
My first kill is etched in my mind's eye like it was yesterday.

Tanbark Spanker
05-28-2008, 03:15 PM
I will post a lot of youtube videos to help you understand why murderous anger is so abundant in our USAnian society. It's mostly poor diet and bad television programing. Sure, there is some wierd-ass doctrine involved, but the problem lies mostly in prevention -and prevention just don't make the G money Jim.

johnw
05-28-2008, 04:23 PM
I didn't say it was a great film, I said it was HIS great film. You do see the difference?

I was appalled by it. I don't much like Peckinpaw. But to ignore his influence is to be blinded. What are the Terminator films but one long Peckinpaw riff with a few clever sci-fi plot twists thrown across the plate? Kill, kill, I've got blood and guts and veins in my teeth!

Did Peckinpaw ever try his hand at, um, a sensitive film? I'm quite sure not. His meat and potatoes was that raw violence.

Though I don't like the film, I do see the honesty in it. Hoffman does take on those attackers rather effectively, cleverly. OK, the house is under attack, let's boil some water and get that bear trap off the wall. Any port in a storm.

"Honest?" Get a grip. And calling it his masterpiece does sound a teeny tiny bit like praise.

Rational Root
05-29-2008, 03:24 AM
Paladin,

I think I Like you.

D.

ps I also hope you never end up disliking me.:eek:


Never, ever, get mad and try to kill someone. If you're gonna do it.....calm yourself, breath deeply, relax.....a target is a target and anger messes with your aim. In close quarters a pencil will do fine, at medium distances a bow is much quieter than a suppressed weapon, at long ranges, the suppressor is fine, but the muzzle blast will lay down the grass or kick up dust 10-15 meters in front of the weapon. Caution, calmness and planning....if you really dunno like the troll a little ground glass in his hamburger....arsenic is fine but not too much, too large a dose will make someone regurgitate it. Natural stuff am better...an asp in bed, scorpions or the like. If the person keeps a firearm around, snitch some bullets, remove the lead, pour out the powder, reseat the bullet on top of C4....he'll get a bang out of it.

Spin_Drift
05-29-2008, 03:30 AM
Paladin,

I think I Like you.

D.

ps I also hope you never end up disliking me.:eek:

I've always liked Paladin... He is a very, VERY SPECIAL man.:):D

ishmael
05-29-2008, 06:16 AM
"Honest?" Get a grip. And calling it his masterpiece does sound a teeny tiny bit like praise."

I can read "Lolita," admire the skill it took to write it, without endorsing lechery. But that's not quite it. In that film the Hoffman character and his wife are under attack. He's not a fighter by nature, which is part of what makes the story compelling. He has to reach deep, into something primal, in order to fend off a bad crew who want to murder him and rape and murder his wife. One of them has already raped his wife.

It's not a story I like to watch, as I said I think I only saw it in original release. But I can admire the skill that went into telling it, and I'm not so naive as to think such horrible things don't happen. Blessedly, they are rare.

The making of graphic violence for the screen, both large and small, is probably not a good thing. Making entertainment out of the darkest human motives and actions is titillating. It's a form of pornography. Peckinpaw's work, what I've seen of it, is rather mild compared to what is regular "entertainment" on those screens.

switters
05-29-2008, 12:09 PM
cow!

this thread is so funny on multiple levels.

it's like the hand of god with a sense of humor trying to prove that someone can get into a killing rage while everyone else around just debates the issue in a way that is oblivious to what is happening around them.

Cow, yea, I posted it.

pcford
05-29-2008, 12:16 PM
cow!

this thread is so funny on multiple levels.

it's like the hand of god with a sense of humor trying to prove that someone can get into a killing rage while everyone else around just debates the issue in a way that is oblivious to what is happening around them.

Cow, yea, I posted it.

Yes. We should have a Hall of Fame for Bilge threads.....this thread would be the pick of the litter.