Breasthooks...

[Tar Devil]

... are about to do me in. Such a basic thing, and I just can't make it fit.

I was kinda following Thomas Hill's book (or, trying to)

Suggestions? About the whole deal??

[sawcutmill]

Try using a piece of PINE first. or make a plywood template, complete with bevels and angles etc,.....then do the final one, of course, dont forget, Port and Starboard are not always the SAME! this applies to alot of boatbuilding.

[ChrisBen]

You can use a thin cardboard or even stiff paper for a template, one for the top and another under the inwhale, cut outside the line and like Larry says sand or plane and test till you get it right.

You're quick Larry.

[Tar Devil]

What you guys suggested is pretty much what I did. The initial cut isn't the problem... just making everything fit after cutting the bevels.

[ChrisBen]

What you guys suggested is pretty much what I did. The initial cut isn't the problem... just making everything fit after cutting the bevels.Just have to take your time, the angle changes ever so slightly even in that short span.

[pipefitter]

Do you have one of these? This is how I transfer bevels internally on many things I build.
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/ProductImages/markingmeasuring/067018.jpg

A straightedge across your contact points and this will give you the general bevel. Check it in a couple places to see if the bevel is consistent or within reason. Cross check it in the opposite direction as well to see if both sides are symmetrical. I have made my own and even used a bent piece of wire to gage bevels or bends. Seeing as you have already cut the bevel, you can use something to this effect to check matching contact points on your piece to where it should fit in the hull.

[Jim Ledger]

Sometimes, when a joint is roughly cut, I have difficulty seeing where the high spot is. And until the fit becomes quite close there is probably only one or two high spots. One trick is to slip a bit of carbon paper into the joint and wiggle the pieces around a bit. The high spot will show up as a little smudge, showing what has to be removed. Patiently repeating this procedure will eventually produce a decent fit.

Might help, who knows? A breasthook has a lot of fitting faces and can be a challenging bit of work.

[paladin]

If'n you wuz a REAL boatbuilder you would make it from 1/8th inch wood and a box knife, cut the first one to fit, tape it in place and epoxy the edges, repeat and repeat.....
See! Told ya twas eeezy......

[J. Dillon]

Phil,

Use the bevel as suggested above but this time make the breast hook a bit over size , then plane to fit.

JD

[Tar Devil]

Do you have one of these? This is how I transfer bevels internally on many things I build.
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/ProductImages/markingmeasuring/067018.jpg





Phil,

Use the bevel as suggested above but this time make the breast hook a bit over size , then plane to fit.

JD

That's what I did. It's just my ineptitude, inexperience, or just plain dense :eek: I've got it close but just can't get the really nice fit I wanted. Maybe I'm being too picky, but seeing some of the other work around here, I feel like I oughta make a better job of it.

Chuck, dont' think I didn't look hard at all that extra 1/4 ply lying around! :D

[erster]

Total and complete nonsense, Phil!!!!;) Just because you can fly an airplane, pilots practice all the time doing the same thing over and over and still each landing is a bit different, but rarely quit flying because they do a go around. :cool:

. Breasthooks in almost all builds are to be at least two inches larger in length than what you think you will end up with and use a grinder, 12.000 rpm to be exact and you will have no problem or severe cases of frustration. When you get the sides right, then mark accordingly the aft end to its proper running length and cut to desired shape. Every time you grind or cut the sides, the front end will also need to be refitted.

I bet the first tooth a dentist pulled was not a pretty thing either.:p

The edges in almost all cases will have a curve even in such a short run as breathooks in pirogues. But FWIW, fish do not look at the seam lines. Now where were we.......Get back to work. The weekend is fast approaching.

[J. Dillon]

What Mike said is good but I think it would be a good exercise to keep fiddling with the bresthook and get it so you would be proud to show it off. So you make some fire wood in the process but in the end.:D:D:D

JD

[Tar Devil]

What you say makes sense Mike ('cept I don't have a grinder... hafta make do with the plane). But I can also relate to what Jack's saying... the more I work with it the better I'll be on the other end (hopefully!). I just didn't envision it being all that much of a challenge.

So, here's the compromise... I waited until it was dark, checked the fit and it looked great!!

Hope it still does tomorrow in daylight when I glue it! :D

[J. Dillon]

A sensile solution for sure.;)

JD

[Mrleft8]

I kinda did what Chuckie suggested..... But I used 1/8" plywood. Strike a center line on two roughly shaped pieces. Take one at the bottom of your "wale" take the other at the top of your "wale". Now transfer these lines to your breast hook stock. Cut to close to the lines and nudge them until it fits. Remember Phil...... It's not a freakin' piano! ;)

[S B]

I don't know how far allong you are with your boat, but here the breast hook is installed before the sheerplank. They are cut a little big and planed after being bolted in place. Usually doesn't cause too much grief.

[Tar Devil]

I kinda did what Chuckie suggested..... But I used 1/8" plywood. Strike a center line on two roughly shaped pieces. Take one at the bottom of your "wale" take the other at the top of your "wale". Now transfer these lines to your breast hook stock. Cut to close to the lines and nudge them until it fits. Remember Phil...... It's not a freakin' piano! ;)

Sounds like a lot of "cutting and fitting" that will be repeated again after you transfer the lines. But... guess I'd have to see pics of what yer talking about.

The bevel gage does a great job of getting the lines laid on the stock. Problem is, I suppose, my skill (or lack of) of getting that changing bevel right... like, getting one end good just to mess up the other end.

Oh well... hopefully it'll still look good in the morning!


I don't know how far allong you are with your boat, but here the breast hook is installed before the sheerplank. They are cut a little big and planed after being bolted in place. Usually doesn't cause too much grief.

It's just a little pirogue I'm building here, (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79841) so just one side plank.

[S B]

It's just a little pirogue I'm building here, (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79841) so just one side plank.[/quote]
I had no idea what you were building. To cut that breasthook, make a rough blank and secure it ,temporarily, 3-4" from the stem, Lay a thin batten along the sheer and scribe line on blank. Do the same underneath and other side. Cut to line. The only cut and try ,you should have left, is the stem bevel, which isn't all that complicated. Hope this isn't too simple an explaination.

[Tar Devil]

I posted this on my boat thread as well.

OK, I looked at it this morning and still relatively satisfied. Don't like that gap at the front, but I know without a doubt if I try fixing it I'll mess up the rest. I'm sure some thickened epoxy will cure that little gap.

I left about a 1/4 above the sheer so I can plan a crown...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/Boats/Ez%20Canoe/100_0110.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/Boats/Ez%20Canoe/100_0111.jpg

[erster]

OK, I looked at it this morning and still relatively satisfied. Don't like that gap at the front, but I know without a doubt if I try fixing it I'll mess up the rest. I'm sure some thickened epoxy will cure that little gap.

:eek: Heaven foribid if you are worried about that one right now. [insert sarcasm here. over limit of gremlins] Just wait till you get some glue in the seam along the sides. ;) That will make that one bigger. :eek: I think it really depends on the angle that you are looking at it. From the paddle seat I can guarantee you that you cannot and will not see it.:p:D From my seat I darn sure cannot see it. Looks great and now you have some practice and some experience for your next project when building one with two beautifull grand kids so they can paddle with you too. You will indeed look like a hero and they will look up at you and marvel at your new learned skills of boat building. Cheers and the the weekend is now one less day away!:D

[Tar Devil]

Thanks for the encouragement, Mike! I see more and more why you guys recommend starting with small simple boats.

The other end might be even more of a bugger than this was... the planking has a little warpage that might be a chore to work around. We'll see...

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Your piece looks pretty good . . . How do I do it . . . in a few sentences? . . . Trace 1/4" piece of plywood for the shape of the breasthook at the sheer, pick up the bevel with a bevel rule, if it's a long breasthook pick up the bevel at both ends, read the bevel off a bevel stick (sort of a protractor) and mark the pattern. Cut the pattern to the line, cut the breasthook stock SQUARE to the pattern line. Assuming you are leaving a bit for the crown, now mark the sheer line on the breashook blank - along this line (not the top edge of the breasthook), cut the bevel, or the lesser of the two bevels with a bandsaw, or do all of this with a block plane. Adjust with a block plane or wood rasp. Simple, eh?

[gert]

This is Carina's breasthook; there is a piece of all-thread burried in it's underside running port to starboard. (Joel White's spec)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/47/176767455_dcb3b0af05.jpg

[Tar Devil]

Aw, you guys trying to make me feel bad?? Look at the fit on those boats!!

[esingleman]

When I made mine, I pretty much did as was already suggested, cardboard templates, bevel square, then I angle cut on the bandsaw a little proud, then clamped my belt sander to the workmate and slowly brought them in. The tougher part for me was drilling for the transverse bronze stiffining rods. I ended up drilling oversized holes and putting a lot of epoxy to fill the gaps. Alignment was the issue with tighter holes. Its been together for seven years, still looks perfect. Except for the varnish I've gotten behind on, but it's still better than a plastic boat any day!!!

[Syd MacDonald]

Bud McIntosh says the grain should run athwartship. Does it really matter?

[Tar Devil]

Hmmm... depends. If yer gonna be picking up and carrying a pirogue by the breasthook, I'd think the opposite.

[SMARTINSEN]

What Mr. Ledger said.

Once I got close, I used chalk to find the high spots, switching from a disc sander to a patternmaker's rasp to contend with contrary grain to get a good tight fit. Otherwise a sharp block plane.

[Yeadon]

Sounds like you're getting there. I found the breasthook to be a tough piece to conquer. I have a double-ender, so there were two to fit, and I bet I fiddled with each one for a couple days apiece.

In the end, I was saved by using plenty of bedding, plenty of varnish, and the fact that the breasthood joints up against a nice soft (and forgiving) cedar plank.

Here's a lousy cell phone camera photo of Big Food during construction. Low pixel cameras also make my work look better.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/241/447915541_c42d9bebbe_o.jpg

[Yeadon]

It's epoxied and through-bolted. That breasthook isn't going anywhere. (Neither is the other one, either.)

[Canoez]

Here's one from another student's boat. I've had him install (bond with epoxy) a piece that goes under the deck. It makes a good handle and should help to keep it from splitting as he lifts the boat by the breasthook.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_MlvfQTkG04Q/SD2HW3kX0EI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/MlsVnDFAmxs/s400/IMG_0117.JPG

[Tar Devil]

Nice looking work, both boats!

I don't know if I'll get anything done on mine or not... supposed to go to a wedding. Gotta come up with some kind of excuse...

[dmede]

Here's mine pre glue up (the fit was nice and tight once the fasteners pulled it all in).

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2291/2481077531_b055d44223_o.jpg

Definitely do a full mock up with bevels. Use those angles to set your bandsaw and cut the stock freehand to keep the slight curve.

I used a set of files to fine tune it, a spokeshave would also work well. A handplane will flatten the curve too much and there is too much risk of tearing out a chunk of grain at the ends. As you get it close test fit with full clamping pressure to see how much you close the gap by flexing the sheer (you won't notice any change in fairness). Use chalk to see high spots on the BH bevel faces. Slightly over beveling the BH helps keep a tight line on the top.

HTH

[ishmael]

Tom Hill's description and photos are about as good as I've found for a built up breasthook. It's not that difficult. Maybe you were rushing? It does demand a bit of concentration for measuring bevels, and then a bit more to get the inwales to sit correctly: and then a bit more to get it all nicely faired. I always found it rather pleasant work. Hill points to direct whenever possible, which appealed to this math challenged mind. Don't measure if you can avoid it! LOL.

Try it with an apple or other grown knee sometime. Those seem to move whenever you ain't got an eye on them.

[Tar Devil]

Here's mine pre glue up (the fit was nice and tight once the fasteners pulled it all in).

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2291/2481077531_b055d44223_o.jpg


Sometimes, honestly, you guys make me sick!! :)

[Canoez]

The easiest way I know of to do a breasthook is to first make up your blank (bookmatch, add stripes, etc...) Flip the blank upside down where it will be put align and center and a then clamp in place. Scribe from underneath. This marks the top edge to the inwale or the hull, depending on how you want it to look. I usually cut close to the line with a bandsaw and clean up with a plane.

Then using your bevel gage, mark the angle on the inside edge of the deck and bevel the underside (Leave your mark from scribing!) to meet the hull. Fit inside and using the carbon paper trick described by Jim Leger above, remove the high spots. If you take a bit too much material away from the bevel, you will not see it! It should fit nice and tight. If you do have a gap underneath, you can fit a small scrap to repair it or fill with thickened epoxy, depending on construction.

[Jim Ledger]

Sometimes, honestly, you guys make me sick!! :)

I know, and he's being so modest about it, too.

Nice fit, Dmede.

[dmede]

I know, and he's being so modest about it, too.

Nice fit, Dmede.

pics on a computer screen have a way of cleaning up your work ;) It looks nice but I'm no mechanic. Some of the stuff I see you guys do around here makes me very feel very lazy! :D

[Barrett Faneuf]

I get frustrated with attempting to transfer lots of bevels with a gauge. I have a bevel gauge, and I use it at the start for a first pass, but from then on it's a matter of planing/grinding/sanding, offering up, etc. I usually start with just the template of the top made from cardboard, and work from there.

One trick I use to find the high spots is to stick a light under the breasthook. Makes locating the sticky spots a lot easier:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2202/2173291686_c7d2ed2419.jpg

This worked out really well, 2" thick purpleheart breasthook and knees all fit quite nicely. Lots of planing and offering up. Just sneak up on it a bit at a time is my method. Seems to work.

[Eric D]

I get frustrated with attempting to transfer lots of bevels with a gauge. I have a bevel gauge, and I use it at the start for a first pass, but from then on it's a matter of planing/grinding/sanding, offering up, etc. I usually start with just the template of the top made from cardboard, and work from there.

One trick I use to find the high spots is to stick a light under the breasthook. Makes locating the sticky spots a lot easier:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2202/2173291686_c7d2ed2419.jpg

This worked out really well, 2" thick purpleheart breasthook and knees all fit quite nicely. Lots of planing and offering up. Just sneak up on it a bit at a time is my method. Seems to work.

dang, I am too late, that was my tidbit to offer.

LIGHT.

that and Jim's point on carbon paper or chalk works well too. Learned that one in the dentist chair....:(

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
It seems to me that much of what some of you people have been describing would best be called "mini-foredecks" rather than breasthooks.

At bottom, a breasthook is really a knee -- a single piece of wood like a quarter-knee, or the hanging knee supporting a thwart. Its purpose is to provide strength at the junction of the two sharply-angled sides of the vessel. As such, a breasthook like all knees is preferably a grown piece, with the grain running around it convex towards the inside of the angle (ie the bow, in the case of a breasthook.)

If such a piece can't be obtained, you'd bookend two pieces together with the grain running parallel to the outside edges. I've been trying without success to find a decent photo of my own, but Gert's and Dmede's look right (with or without Dmede's finishing piece on the after edge, which looks very neat.)

Gert's all-thread is a very good idea if you're not rivetting, and in a small dinghy it's probably sufficient (much better than relying just on glue.) But in my opinion rivetting right through from the outside of one sheerstrake to the outside of the other is by far the strongest way to proceed. Breasthooks, like quarter-knees, are there to provide strength and rigidity to offset the wracking strains produced in the hull by wave action, and the stronger you can make these corners the better.

Mike

[AussieBarney]

I am not, ever going to post a photo of any of my woodworking efforts on this forum:o:o. My very best efforts would just look terrible against the work I see here I stand in awe of the skills demonstrated and shown with such understated modesty. You could do a better job with a blunt hand axe than I could do with the finest tools.:p:D:D. All jokes aside,That work blows me away,you should be proud to show it off. Thank you for demonstrating what can be acheived Barney

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

.
It seems to me that much of what some of you people have been describing would best be called "mini-foredecks" rather than breasthooks.

At bottom, a breasthook is really a knee -- a single piece of wood like a quarter-knee, or the hanging knee supporting a thwart. Its purpose is to provide strength at the junction of the two sharply-angled sides of the vessel. As such, a breasthook like all knees is preferably a grown piece, with the grain running around it convex towards the inside of the angle (ie the bow, in the case of a breasthook.)

If such a piece can't be obtained, you'd bookend two pieces together with the grain running parallel to the outside edges. I've been trying without success to find a decent photo of my own, but Gert's and Dmede's look right (with or without Dmede's finishing piece on the after edge, which looks very neat.)

Gert's all-thread is a very good idea if you're not rivetting, and in a small dinghy it's probably sufficient (much better than relying just on glue.) But in my opinion rivetting right through from the outside of one sheerstrake to the outside of the other is by far the strongest way to proceed. Breasthooks, like quarter-knees, are there to provide strength and rigidity to offset the wracking strains produced in the hull by wave action, and the stronger you can make these corners the better.

Mike

We are talking about a PIROGUE. It's nothing but a flat bottomed, flat sided canoe made from plywood. If carefully built a Cheap Canoe can weigh 40 lb. or a bit less. Breasthooks that are epoxied up from contrasting pieces of wood work very well without splines, threaded rod, rivits or dowels.
My Cheap Canoe has breasthooks made from scraps of firewood I gathered in my back yard. I had the misfortune of losing the boat off my roofrack at about 65 MPH. The boat got a good thump when it landed and the breasthooks survived just fine.
Here's a picture of my scrapwood breasthook with the patch I applied to conceal the damage.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/displayimage.php?album=333&pos=13

[Tar Devil]

I am not, ever going to post a photo of any of my woodworking efforts on this forum:o:o. My very best efforts would just look terrible against the work I see here I stand in awe of the skills demonstrated and shown with such understated modesty. You could do a better job with a blunt hand axe than I could do with the finest tools.:p:D:D. All jokes aside,That work blows me away,you should be proud to show it off. Thank you for demonstrating what can be acheived Barney

Tell you what... I'll keep posting my work - that'll make you feel better! :D

[pipefitter]

Tell you what... I'll keep posting my work - that'll make you feel better! :D

Yeah, right! The boat looks fine and some fish slime goes a long way to covering up any so called defect even better than epoxy and wood dust. You aviation guys sure are picky. :D

[Tar Devil]

Worked on them again today. Did little more planing/rasping/cussing... finally quit, drilled some holes, ran some screws, marked my tabs and took the thing to the bandsaw at which point I made a silly, stupid mistake - so stupid I won't tell you what it was.

Anyway... here are my new breasthooks and I'll begin fitting anew tomorrow! Think I'll like these better anyway...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/100_0112.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/100_0113.jpg

[Tar Devil]

This is feeling better...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/Boats/Ez%20Canoe/100_0120.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/Boats/Ez%20Canoe/100_0118.jpg

That rear gap pulls up nicely when fastened.

Now I gotta try and do this again on the other end... :rolleyes:

[Tar Devil]

Fastened and epoxied...

Bow
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/Boats/Ez%20Canoe/100_0125.jpg

Stern
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/Boats/Ez%20Canoe/100_0126.jpg

Now I'll leave this thread be and go back to my build thread...

[Bob Triggs]

Something that I have found helpful is to begin with oversized stock. I draw the shape that I want- in this case a breasthook but it works for knees etc too- but I leave it considerably overlength. That way I have room for error as I nibble the thing into place. Once I have the oversize piece fitted up on all areas that I want in full contact, bevels etc, then I final shape the piece prior to attatching it. If there are any notches or dovetails, mortices etc, ie for the inwales or rails etc, I do them last.