Mahogany color

[Wherry Jack]

The Honderous Mahogany transom on the Rhodes Wherry that I am building has turned a beautiful red. I now must sand it. This will remove the red color. How can I bring back the color before varnishing?

[ishmael]

Varnish will breath, and the color will come back.

A complex topic. I like to let wood do its thing, but with mahogany filling the grain is an issue, and that's usually with a filler stain. Some are without color.

When I watch a TV woodworker like Norm Abhrams I always cringe when he reaches for Minwax for a cherry cabinet. Yeah, let's make this the color we imagine! I hate it! Most wood makes a nice accomadationm, if given a little time.

So, a bit of time will darken the mahogany.

[pcford]

Stain it. The z-spar and international have several colors of mahogany. Go to a place that sells marine paint...if none nearby is available try fisheriessupply.com Get a chip chart and choose two or three colors that you like. Get the smallest cans available. Try it on your transom or similar wood.
Remember that the color of the varnish will affect the final color of the wood.

It is possible to match whatever color your transom used to be.

[Bob Smalser]

I adore Honduras Mahogany. Wish I could grow it.

Mix and heat a soup of BLO, Japan Drier and pine tar or Daly's Teak Oil, BLO and pine tar....wet sand it into the grain with 220....let dry, and varnish.

Darkens the mahog and put's a sparkle in those filled pores like nothing else, and it gets even more beautiful as it ages. For darker, simply add a little more pine tar.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7483424/97909701.jpg

Won't fade like many stains, do, either.

[ 10-15-2005, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[pcford]

When I watch a TV woodworker like Norm Abhrams I always cringe when he reaches for Minwax for a cherry cabinet. Yeah, let's make this the color we imagine! I can't speak to Norm and his Minwax stain but...I repeat (yet again) that the purpose of stain is not to change the appearance of the wood to resemble another or merely to change the color of the wood. It is to accentuate the grain of the wood. Without stain, many woods will look flat when finished. Mahogany is one of those.

Those that think it is somehow "purer" to not stain a wood are ignoring centuries of woodcraft.

"The only 'natural' wood is standing in a forest."

[ishmael]

Hey, I'm not constitutionally agin stains, and mahogany probably needs a little something to shine. It's just that Norm stains EVERYTHING. Many of our native woods, white pine, cherry, walnut etc take on a lovely patina, particularly under oil. I sometimes cringe when Norm hauls out the minwax, which he does for everything he builds. smile.gif He's gotten to be a very good, interesting woodworker over the years, but he could lay off some of the stain. To my eye, that cherry chest will look a lot better in a year if you leave the stain in the paint cupboard.

[Billy Bones]

Well I can grow it, I do grow it, and I work with it almost daily.

It will do a fair amount of its 'oxidizing' in the first few days being exposed to the bright sun.

You can cheat the process along by applying a very dilute solution of bichromate of potash. Be warned, however, that a little goes a long way. If you do not apply it uniformly, you'll know it in about 15 minutes. Fortunately the effect is whisper-thin, so if at first you don't succeed, sand and try again. Bichromate is poisonous, too, so be careful. This is how I match very old bits of mahogany with very new ones on antique furniture.

Never, never, never use 'stain.' It will look like you want it for a short while, then it'll look like some stained piece of wood. Pcford's comments are somewhat true, in an historical context, but one must realize that the currently available crop of 'stains' on the market are more closely related to paint than to 'traditional' stains.

good luck

[ 10-15-2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Billy Bones ]

[Victor]

Lemme get this straight - it's a beautiful red color and you want to STAIN it? (puke) Stain raises the grain and sanding makes it splotchy. You might find some kinda sealer to deal with this, but why on earth would you WANT to? Bear in mind if you stain the transom you'll have to stain everything else too. Let God choose the color if it's mahogany.

[ 10-15-2005, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Victor ]

[ishmael]

I'm no expert on staining, I guess I've made that clear. :D

The mahogany I've used on boats wanted staining but particularly filling with something. It was usually on a Chris or Lyman, which have particular stains and fillers to get their look. Most of that was Phillipine, not Honduran. If you don't fill the pores it will be much more difficult to get the varnish to look right.

Interesting discussion. I'm always open to learning new tricks. Bob's potions sound good, and his results, as pictured, are hard to argue with.

However, where I get my panties in a bundle is when the current guru of power-tool woodworking, Norm Abrahms, finishes a nice cherry piece and routinely, as a matter of course, gets out the Minwax "antique cherry" stain. Gawd, what an abomination! smile.gif It makes a one-off hand-built piece look like something from Ethan Allan. I wanna scream, no, Norm, don't do it!

[ 10-15-2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Mrleft8]

When yer done sanding, give it a good rub down with rottenstone, which will act as a grain filler. Then varnish it. The beautiful red Mahogany color that's there now will return all on it's own. If you stain it, it will not.

[Victor]

Originally posted by pcford:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />When I watch a TV woodworker like Norm Abhrams I always cringe when he reaches for Minwax for a cherry cabinet. Yeah, let's make this the color we imagine! I can't speak to Norm and his Minwax stain but...I repeat (yet again) that the purpose of stain is not to change the appearance of the wood to resemble another or merely to change the color of the wood. It is to accentuate the grain of the wood. Without stain, many woods will look flat when finished. Mahogany is one of those.

Those that think it is somehow "purer" to not stain a wood are ignoring centuries of woodcraft.

"The only 'natural' wood is standing in a forest."</font>[/QUOTE]I couldn't disagree more. My boat came from the factory with a color that was a brownish red, and I tried for months to match it with stains. But every single piece of mahogany came out looking like it might as well be pine. I finally sanded down all the pieces I'd stained back to bare wood and varnished heavily, and now, even though they're hardly as smooth as I'd like, they stilll have that golden glow that you get from mahogany. Now I'm working on the theory that even if the grain is raised, if you put enough coats of varnish on it, eventually you can get it nice and smooth - although I must confess I'm not as concerned with that mirror finish as I once was. To me it says "trailer queen".

Varnished oak doesn't exactly glow, it just looks like varnished oak. Now the cedar pieces, they need staining.

[ 10-15-2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Victor ]

[lagspiller]

All my boats have been varnished mahagony or oregon pine. I have never used stain. Sanded bare and finished with 5-6 coats of Epifanies the wood will turn from a lusterless light brown to deep sparkling red in a couple of weeks. The layers of varnish give an almost 'metallic candy' effect over the wood... it gets a special 3D effect that nothing else can match.

BTW - we use a product called "Ferrobet" here to remove any black stains the wood may have aquired over the years. It is actually a rust remover for iron, based on phosphoric acid. Spray/stroke on over bare wood and let it dry overnight. Also helps to have direct sunlight. Leaves no 'watermark' and the color residue matches the wood.

[ 10-15-2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: lagspiller ]

[pcford]

It is not unusual for a new client to state that they don't want their boat stained. They would rather have the wood "natural." I guess stain has a negative connotation; stain sounds like something that happens to your tie at an Italian restaurant.

The fact is that staining is an old, even ancient technique. Here are a couple references are doubtless good woodworkers. Ron Clarkson-Very Expensive 18th c. Reproductions (http://www.woodworking.com/wwtimes_ronclarkson.cfm) Staining in 18th c. Marquetry (http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/wag/1999/WAG_99_philp.pdf)

Stain can be certainly used carelessly and can hurt or destroy the look of a project. Some woods can sometimes look just fine without a stain. Pine, doug fir, yellow cedar and cherry would be among these in my humble opinion. To say that wood should never be stained is, well, sophmoric.

As to what Norm Abrams does, I must confess that I rarely watch the program. I don't see him as a guru. It's just a TV program, for gosh sakes. Any city of significant size will have woodworkers with greater skill.

If you care to respond to my opinions regarding stain please do. I think I've made my point for your consideration. I don't think I have much more to add.

Those with egos on the line could apply to the "popsicle" thread. Seems to be plenty of opportunity there.

[ishmael]

Let's not get huffy. We're exploring the nature of stains, not the virgin birth.

The only one I've read inject ego is you, PC.

Can't claim to be ego-less around any issue, but I can accept the possibility that you know more about stains than I do.

Different ethos's play a part too. Almost all the work I've done was intended to let the wood be; a little oil, some wax. I can't remember the last time I opened a can of stain. Check that, it was repairing a gunwale and transom deck on a Chris Sea Skiff.

[ 10-15-2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[pcford]

A couple more things that might be useful:

It's common in boat restoration the a newly hung plank or other piece is lighter than the surrounding original wood. You have probably seen hulls with a checkerboard effect. Not pretty.

The challenge is to match the new wood to the old. Now to some extent, the new wood will darken as it ages. But new wood is so much lighter it is usually necessary to help the process along by dyeing and staining. We mask off the original areas with chemically resistant tape. Then we dye with water based dye. Dye is good because it is fairly transparent and can be mixed to exact shade and color.

As someone said earlier in this thread, it is not easy to match colors. Furthermore what makes a color appear the way is quite complicated. The science behind this, color theory, makes my head ache pretty quickly. Also, I'm red and green color blind so I have to have someone help me. One thing that very important is that an exact match on color is _not_ critical. More important is the darkness of the wood (it's so-called "value"). Your eye will not see the difference in color, but you will notice the plank if it is too light. A bit of over-correction creating a plank which is too dark is not too bad. One's eye does not get hung up on that.

After the dye has succeeded in approximating the color of the plank's neighbors, you apply the typical wiping filler stain.

Maybe further about staining at another point.

Oh, another point at no added cost....
My "philosophy" is that when you look at a boat, your eye should not "hang up" or "snag" at any point. You should see the entire boat, not its parts. Hope I'm expressing myself well?

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Billy Bones:
You can [apply] a very dilute solution of bichromate of potash. Be warned, however, that a little goes a long way&hellip;Bichromate is poisonous, too, so be careful.It's been used as a wood dye for several hundred years. And it works well.

However, it's also a known carcinogen, teratogen and mutagen. From the MSDS (http://www.nvcc.edu/Alexandria/science/MSDSweb/PotassiumDichromate.htm) (I like the way it can turn your blood chocolate brown :eek: ):
EMERGENCY OVERVIEW

Appearance: orange crystalline powder. Danger! Strong oxidizer. Contact with other material may cause a fire. Corrosive. May cause sensitization by inhalation and by skin contact. Cancer hazard. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause blood abnormalities. Causes eye and skin burns. May cause severe respiratory tract irritation with possible burns. May cause severe digestive tract irritation with possible burns. May be fatal if absorbed through the skin. May be fatal if swallowed. Dangerous for the environment. May cause fetal effects based upon animal studies.

Target Organs: Blood, kidneys, liver, lungs, teeth.

Potential Health Effects

Eye: Causes eye burns. May cause chemical conjunctivitis and corneal damage.
Skin: May be fatal if absorbed through the skin. Causes skin burns. May cause skin sensitization, an allergic reaction, which becomes evident upon re-exposure to this material. Chrome ulcers, penetrating lesions of the skin, occur chiefly on the hand and forearm where there has been a break in the epidermis.

Ingestion: May be fatal if swallowed. May cause severe and permanent damage to the digestive tract. Causes gastrointestinal tract burns. May cause perforation of the digestive tract. May cause methemoglobinemia, cyanosis (bluish discoloration of skin due to deficient oxygenation of the blood), convulsions, and death. Methemoglobinemia is characterized by dizziness, drowsiness, headache, breath shortness, cyanosis with bluish skin, rapid heart rate and chocolate-brown colored blood.

Inhalation: May cause asthmatic attacks due to allergic sensitization of the respiratory tract. May cause ulceration and perforation of the nasal septum if inhaled in excessive quantities. Causes chemical burns to the respiratory tract. Aspiration may lead to pulmonary edema.

Chronic: Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause sensitization dermatitis and possible destruction and/or ulceration. May cause respiratory tract cancer. May cause liver and kidney damage. Chronic inhalation may cause nasal septum ulceration and perforation. May cause reproductive and fetal effects. Effects may be delayed. Laboratory experiments have resulted in mutagenic effects. Repeated or prolonged exposure may cause erosion and discoloration of the teeth. Oh, and it kills fish.

[Victor]

Dye, now there's an idea. Hard to get deliberate results with stain. What kind of dye do you use?

I dunno pc, my cedar looks just plain awful with nothing but varnish on it.

[ 10-15-2005, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Victor ]

[ssor]

I guess I will weigh in here. If you don't like the color of the wood you are using then choose another species of wood. Wood is a natural material, a varition in color and texture is to be expected. If you are going to demand uniform color and texture then use plastic. :confused:

[ssor]

Deleted a redundant posting

[ 10-15-2005, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[sdowney717]

That beautiful red color will bleach out in the bright sun. The red color of H Mahogany is water soluble. I have seen it wash out of fresh wood. The reason it returns in a finished piece I think is moisture in the wood brings the color up to the surface.
The filler stains I have seen are pastes with heavy color to fill the grain pores scratches etc...
A good match for the red is WalMart red primer in a spray can. I emptied out a can by punching in a nail and draining it into a bucket. An almost identical color as the red paste filler stain. One reason these filler stains are used is to give large areas of different pieces of wood more of a uniform appearance.

[Mrleft8]

Lots of conflicting advice here... I'd pay closest attention to the people who've been working with the stuff every day for the last quarter century or so...

[Jay Greer]

For replication of antique mahogany cabinetry finish color, I use a solution of Potassium Dichromate and Distilled Water. This is what is known as a "Mordant"
The chemical reacts with the tannins in the wood and enhances the grain pattern as well as enriches the color. It is poisonous if injested. Wash the residu off the wood.

[Adamant]

I've tried staining to achieve a uniform color in different pieces of the same species of wood.
Although the results were not bad I've had better results matching the wood from the sawyer prior to fabrication and then just varnishing. Don't get me wrong this is a tough job. It's hard to match wood unless freshly planed.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Jay Greer:
For replication of antique mahogany cabinetry finish color, I use a solution of Potassium Dichromate and Distilled Water.FYI, "potassium dichromate" = bichromate of potash = Dichromic acid = dipotassium salt = Dipotassium dichromate = Potassium bichromate.

See earlier post for discussion of possible health hazards.

The nice thing about standard nomenclature is that there are so many to choose from :D

[ 10-17-2005, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[sdowney717]

Where do you buy potassium dichromate?
Who has a source, I would like to try this out.

[Jay Greer]

Potassium Dicromate can be purchased from chemical supply houses. Yes it is toxic! I have always exercised precautions not to expose my skin, lungs or innerds to it. If you choose to try it, remember that it is powerful stuff. Experiment on scrap.

[sdowney717]

Agreed it is dangerous.
How much wood can you color using a pound of K2Cr2O7?
I can buy a pound for 15$, is this a good price?
What proportion do you mix with water?

[sdowney717]

I found this site.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Is_potassium_dichromate_worth_the_risk.html

"I run a finishing shop in southern British Columbia, and our clients are always asking for "old looking" fir.

I have found that potassium dichromate is well worth it. Because it is a chemical reaction (oxidizing agent) it does not have the same effect as a wiping stain. It retains the same relationship between the winter and summer growth. A stain will darken the soft summer growth more than the winter growth. Potassium dichromate will darken the two equally, resulting in a very even and very convincing "old" look.

George Frank also said that gasoline is a very dangerous substance, and yet, we all use it safely. It is important to be safe and wear gloves.

As for concentration: try 3 grams of potassium dichromate for 1 litre of water (warm is better). This is a very light colour change. Go as high as 40 grams per litre for a very rich dark colour (beautiful).
Even though it is a chemical reaction, you still must sand all parts equally to ensure even colour. And be aware that it does not touch hemlock, so make sure you are not mixing spieces. "

[Elcoholic]

Actually, Honduran mahogany is not supposed to be red....it's a golden brown. For the record, nothing.....NOTHING beats Minwax Gel Stain Mahoigany 603. You put it in a paint shaker for a minute and then apply it with a brush to areas of about one square foot and then immediately wipe it off with a rag. It's the "right" color and has the "right" grain enhancing properties.

[Matt Cohen]

Originally posted by Wherry Jack:
The Honderous Mahogany transom on the Rhodes Wherry that I am building has turned a beautiful red. I now must sand it. This will remove the red color. How can I bring back the color before varnishing?I nterlux Wood Stains (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/find;a;1;ID;,Paints,Interlux.Compounds...Fillers,I nterlux.Wood.Filler.Stains) - a couple of mahogany colors. There is a color chart on the Interlux website...

www.yachtpaint.com (http://www.yachtpaint.com)

[ 10-18-2005, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Matt Cohen ]