Diesel/cooking oil

[kulas44]

I have an old Onan mdjf 15kw genset sitting outside of my shop that has been running nonstop for three days on cooking oil (used vegetable oil, deep fryer, no additives) It is not smoking or missing, it seems to run just fine and is turning the preset 1800 rpm. It smells like frech fries !!! I can buy this stuff for a pittance from area restaraunts, as a byproduct. I think an old detroit 4/53 would run great on it and I just happen to have a boat with 2 of them in it. The engine needs to be warmed up before the switch over (on diesel) and the cooking oil needs to be kept hot. A small (5 gallon) tank with an engine coolant heat exchanger could take care of that, and a heater in the bulk tanks to help it flow would not be a problem. Any comments ????

[Gary E]

What happens when summer turns to fall and the temps drop? how low can it go before it's jelled?

How can you refine it to make it actually start the diesel?

I can see using the generator the way you are in a stationary setup at home, maybe even put the engine in a semi heated garage, but are you sugesting running the boat on it?

Is this a "Summertime Fling" ?? smile.gif

Long ago I had a Old's Diesel, and below a certain temp they wanted a lighter wgt oil. Well I said, I'll do that next week... ummm, woke up one morn and the temp was well below zero and the engine would not even turn over. So, fired up the little Coleman single burner stove and slid it under the pan, let it cook for a while and also plugged in the block heater... eventually it started...

But if the fuel had jelled, it means towing the car into a warm garage and waiting.

[kulas44]

I have dealt with diesel engines half my life, I understand all those things. I have no confidence whatsoever that the engine will start on cooking oil even in moderate temps, but a shot of ether will start any diesel engine, even on used motor oil !!! If I used a heat exchanger at the engine and heaters in the tanks (aka, Alskan pipeline) that would not be a problem.

[Bruce Hooke]

Running a diesel engine on biodiesel is nothing exotic these days, even up here in chilly New England. It is my understanding that the engine will prefer a mix of diesel and cooking oil, but I am not sure why or what happens if you run it on straight oil. It seems to me that I've also heard that the rubber hoses that contact the fuel need to be replaced with a different material or they will not last well. However, this as all hearsay so please treat it as such!!!

It will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with a good reason not to run a boat on biodiesel...

[Alan D. Hyde]

Many restaurants PAY to have old fryolator fat taken away.

These places will give you as much as you like for free.

A while back, I ran into a guy who heats with the stuff--- at no cost.

Alan

[Gary E]

If I used a heat exchanger at the engine and heaters in the tanks (aka, Alskan pipeline) that would not be a problem Would the engine create enough heat on it's own?

Friend of mine had a 6-71 that kept running on it's lube oil after the fuel was shut off... only way he stopped it was a big boat cushion over the air intake... it got a rebuild that winter.. smile.gif

[GB-32]

Go to: greasecar.com they have just the set up you need for the boat. And if you start getting your used cooking from a Seafood resteraunt you might start catching more fish! smile.gif

[kulas44]

detroits are notorious for running on after shutdown, or even overrunning to the point of ultimate destruction, on crankase oil, there own. Hence, they all have emergency shutoff flaps on the intake, all of them !!! They will run great on diesel and very good on gasoline and used motor oil. Our military purposely designed (or had designed) a motor that could run on almost anything (White, Continental, 2 1/2 to 5 ton troop transport) I can solicite and carry away enough cooking oil to run my old tub for a long time, and smell like french fries (lack of capitolization intentional)

[RonW]

Any comments?

Yea I think it is great, more power to you.
Screw opec.

From what I have been reading about this, there are different blends that you can create, and even a way to cook the oil, in a hot water tank, and seperate it into layers. Then siphon the top layer off and run it as straight diesel, no gelling or other problems.

Funny thing is rudolph diesel ran his diesel engine at, I think the 1900 world's fair, off of refined peanut oil, and made the statement that vegetable oil is non polluting and the engine runs better, as well as creating income for farmers, and that some day in the future when petroleum becomes too high his diesel engines will be runned off of vegetable oil and things will be better off for it.

[ 09-02-2005, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: RonW ]

[ssor]

Willie Nelson says the only problem with running veggie oil in the bus is if you stand behind it for very long you gain weight. :D

[BillyBudd]

Check out www.greasecar.com (http://www.greasecar.com) -- the webiste is of a local (Massachusetts)outfit that has been making conversion kits for diesel engines for some years now. Too bad they cannot figure out how to convert a gas-powered engine to grease, although I read not too long ago that in Sri Lanka the old Morris Minors (only gas engines as far as I know) are running , very slowly, on kerosene. Now for my Seagull, I think it would run on banana peels if it could figure out how to ignite them.

[Dan McCosh]

Diesels will run on lots of stuff. The problems come with the effect on some high-priced components such as distributor pumps and injectors. Lubrication and clogging are the issue. The specs on biodiesel are out there now, and it would be worth checking with the manufacturer.

[Katherine]

For the record, running an engine on bio-diesel or on cooking oil is not the same thing. Now bio-diesel can be made from cooking oil, but it has to go through a distilling and filtering process, not to mention have a few other things added to it before it's acceptable to the diesel engine. Using just straight cooking oil will eventually cause the problems Dan laid out.

As for running a boat on biodiesel (true bio-diesel), I don't see the problem. Most engines can switch between regular diesel and bio-diesel at any time without problems. My father does this quite reqularly with his 18 wheeler, although he did check with the manufacturer on his engine warranties first.

[kulas44]

my Detroits don't have an injection pump and if the oil ruins the injectors every 3000 hours, no big deal, they are cheap and easy to replace. Detroits diesels use the fuel to help cool the head, that adds heat to it. My setup uses a small holding tank with a pump and float valve that keeps it full. All engine fuel comes from this tank and returns to it, ideal for cooking oil.

[Gary E]

I think it's worth a try providing you have a way to quickly change from "FrenchFryOil" to Diesel.

My only concern is that if the heat from the returning fuel is not enough to maintain the day tank temp, it will eventually stop flowing then the engine stops. Maybe if the engine is started on Diesel, switched over to "FFO" , and returned to Diesel before shutdown, that this will assure that a drop in overnight temps wont prevent you from starting the next time.

How are you going to keep the day tank warm overnight and the main tanks warm? More heatexchangers?

Any better answers on T&T ?

[sbsbw]

Vocab Time

Veg - Vegetable Oil, Used or unused

WVO- waste Veg

SVO- Straight Veg

and i'm going blank at the moment but i know there is more.

Now for some INFO

first Biodiesel,
Biodiesel is made by adding methanol to Veg using Lye as a catalyst. the reaction yields Biodiesel and Glycerin. above forty degrees (F) you can run any diesel engine on straight Biodiesel. However between below 40 degrees biodiesel starts to gel, and needs to be kept in a heated tank. For this reason ( and cost) Biodiesel is primaritly sold in blends, B20 for instance is 20 percent biodiesel. Many truckers use B5 (5% biodiesel) or less only because of its improved lubrication.

Now SVO
At summer temperatures a running diesel engine will do fine on un heated Veg, however at temperatures less then 180 degrees coaking will occur. Accordingly heating systems are used. By rerouting coolant though the Veg tank and creating a heated jacket around the fuel lines (and in some cases electrical , the temperature of the Veg can be raised to above 200 degrees.

General information
In the process of growing the plants the Veg is produced from the more CO2 is used then will be emitted from the burning of the Veg. There is virtually no SOX (Sulfuric oxides, which contribute to acid rain), and a similar levels of NOX (nitrogen oxides, which also contribute to acid rain), and similar or slightly lower levels of particulates.

And no my personal input.
By 2020 world oil production will be less then 50% of what is today. Our culture is so dependant on oil that this will probability cause anarchy if sound policy and systems are not developed (forget Iraq, energy policy is much more important, iraq is a short term conflict(assuming we aren’t as dumb as the English and get out quicker then they did in Ireland) Oil is a long crisis). Veg presents an opportunity to allow the US to gradually change its policy and perhaps survive for another 220 years.

I will be converting my 1998 VW TDI soon, and buying several more vehicles that I will convert (both for personal use and to sell). My only complaint is that the Veg market in Vermont is pretty damn hot, to the point where I may have to buy a 1000 gallon tank and make weekly runs to out of state for Veg.

Ben.

[ 09-04-2005, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: sbsbw ]

[JamesCaird]

Hi Guys-Have to agree with Ben and Ron W. re: OPEC and all, etc. However this topic is now more political/economic. FWIW-I have been running "bioDiesel" in my 240 Mercedes now for a bit. Started with the B20 (20%bio/80%petroleum Diesel) then moved to B50 and then B100. Up until last week it cost more than Diesel but now....Meanwhile, all the emissions info are apparently true based on the specs re: sulfur diox, NO2, CO2, etc. It turns out that the new and improved petroleum Diesel, in order to satisfy air quality rules, has been stripped of most of the sulfur, hence "low-sulfur Diesel" but unfortunately that process also strips away much of the good lubricating properties of normal Diesel fuel. However, the "bioDiesel (which is soyoil/rapeseed oil) has the high lubrosity in it without ANY sulfur, hence 0 SO2 emmisions. The car runs fine and starts normally on the bioDiesel without any heating. I think it runs better (even the radio is better and the ride seems improved!) knowing the $$$ isn't going to OPEC. The bioDiesel is completely compatible with the petroleum Dieselfuel, no separate tank, no switching back and forth. My diesel is fine and strong (all 82HP)at 350K miles.
Unfortunately, I do not expect G. Bush and friends to be recommending BioDiesel before it becomes politically necessary for them. I am finding the BioDiesel experience to be extremely satisfying, thinking that the money is staying here, etc, and that this is a viable alternative which deserves our interest and support. my 2 cents-no experience with the WVO. Cheers/JC

[TimothyB]

http://www.journeytoforever.org/

Resource for Biofuels! Lots and LOTS of info.

Some of the poop I've gotten from using Biodiesel (and soon to be making small quantities of it) is as follows:

o Biodiesel is NOT straight vegetable oil. Biodiesel is Vegetable oil (waste or straight) which has been processed with Ethanol or Methanol, mixed with Sodium Hydroxide (lye) or Potassium Hydroxide. It is a simple reaction and if you have some time and a few barrels you can do it in your backyard. Also, it is biodegradable.. which means anybody can make and store as much as you like since it is not an environmental hazard. The caustics get turned into soap and glycerin during the process, which you can burn.

o American biodiesel is not up to European standards, so companies like VW and Mercedes don't vouch for American biodiesel. This is mainly because most commercial Biodiesel is made from Soybean oil, which is not anywhere near as good for the engine as rapeseed oil (Canola) which is what the EU is using. As it stands, random testing by advocacy groups show that commercial biodiesel is lower quality than the average 'garage' biodiesel.

o To supply the entire US with fuel would take a rapeseed crop about 1/2 to 3/4 the size of Utah. For those of you wondering about a size that large, realize that that much farmland can easily be come up with just from the land that the US is paying farmers (well, agro business) NOT to farm. In other words, supplying Bio to match our current consumption would absolutely, positively NOT affect our food supply. And that doesn't even factor in the fact that you can make Ethanol from the feedstock left over after oil pressing, to fuel flexible fuel and modified gasoline engines. We haven't even started talking about harvesting marsh gas, or creating wetlands that would serve as waste processors and fuel providers (methane).

o Biodiesel is safe to use in ANY diesel, though better used in indirect injection engines. The only issue is natural rubber parts will get eroded. All you have to do is replace them with synthetics. Also, if you start using Bio in a diesel it will release all the carbon and muck in the fuel tank, fuel lines and engine over a short period of time: watch and replace your fuel filter often for the first few months!! You'll then have a whistle clean engine ;)

o Biodiesel is more sensitive to cold temperatures. There are a few products specifically designed to deal with Biodiesel gelling.. see the above website to find them.

[RonW]

This is interesting Timothy.

If it only takes a land mass about 3/4 the size of Utah to grow enough rapeseed to do what?
Supply all the oil needs to the u.s.
If so this land mass would be very easy to come up with.
That doesn't sound right, if it is, then vegetable oil diesel fuel may be just around the corner, I am sure it will start off with a large corporation , or maybe it will be a small crop deal, where the farmer does the processing himself, and a tanker stops by once a week or so to pick up a load.That would be neat.

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by RonW:
This is interesting Timothy.

If it only takes a land mass about 3/4 the size of Utah to grow enough rapeseed to do what?
Supply all the oil needs to the u.s.
If so this land mass would be very easy to come up with.
That doesn't sound right, if it is, then vegetable oil diesel fuel may be just around the corner, I am sure it will start off with a large corporation , or maybe it will be a small crop deal, where the farmer does the processing himself, and a tanker stops by once a week or so to pick up a load.That would be neat.Well, I looked up the US total gallons per year of oil consumption as of 2001. I then looked up the average production in gallons per acre of rapeseed. Divided, came up with acres, and then looked at how many square acres are in each state, and picked Utah as an example.

Now, what has to be understood is that something like 15 to 25% of our oil use is petrochemicals and plastics, so that doesn't go away. And also, vegetable oil is only a substitute for diesel fuel, not gasoline... BUT you CAN substitute Ethanol for Gasoline (with small modifications) so I decided to null that out since the seed cake can be fermented into alcohol. I did not look up yield numbers for that process tho.

Thats why I said 1/2 - 3/4. It could be more, but probably less to sustain our entire transportation and industrial infrastructure. If we added the rapeseed cake to the corn surplus I can't imagine we would be short of fuel.

As far as it not sounding right, its not about production, its about distribution. The Petro companies own the distribution networks, and they tried to lobby the EPA to make it almost impossible for small producers to exist. For quite some time the EPA threatened small producers with $30,000 a day fines for selling unapproved fuel, even though they could prove they were compliant with ASTM standards. A class action lawsuit ended that, and recently the ASTM standard has been set (ASTM D-6751), so there is no longer any room for interpretation.

Also, the Soy lobby is heavy into biodiesel. You would think that would be a good thing, however Soy is a much lower producer than rapeseed, at ~48 gal/acre (soy) vs ~130 gal/acre(rapeseed) Also, soybean oil is not ideal for biodiesel use.. rapesseed is much more appropriate (this related to iodine values and other arcane things)The most prolific is the Oil Palm, at ~635 gal/acre but that only grows in semi tropical and tropical climates, and the US doesn't own too much like that smile.gif

What you should also know is that many cities and counties, as well as school systems, are producing their own biodiesel and using it for their fleets, since you can't be taxed for fuel you don't buy. Not only is is cheaper, it is better for the equipment they are discovering. The higher lubricity of biodiesel equals longer life for the engines.

Umm... so all boats with motors could use this stuff. smile.gif See? I kept boats in the post!! No really!

Actually, I do believe there was a guy on the west coast who was powering around the world in a motor sailer using biodiesel... I'll have to look that one up.

[ 09-07-2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[Popeye]

Originally posted by kulas44:
a shot of ether will start any diesel engine, even on used motor oil WD40 starts 'em up smoothly with added lubrication

would a little kerosene added in the fuel mixture help with cold temperature performance?

[ 09-07-2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: popeye ]

[TimothyB]

I understand that that could help the gelling problem (but is highly dependent on the kerosene and seedstock used to make the fuel) however, if the biodiesel is not cleanly made it will form wax crystals in cold temperatures that can gum up injectors.

However, I don't think that B50 has that problem, so I have to assume that you could fiddle around and figure out how much Kero to use to get gel free, wax free fuel. Check the URL I posted for tons of info and jump points.

[TimothyB]

Ah! Found something:

" Additives and fuel-line heaters can solve the problem, and so can adding a proportion of petro-diesel or kerosene (up to 30% is usually recommended)."

There you go. :)