View Full Version : O.K...Serious Help Here!
09-26-2001, 07:38 AM
Alright fellas, time to stop having fun and getting really serious. I build Ta'Ana Mari several years ago in Thailand without the assistance of really "experienced" builders like alla youse guys. She was built with laminated beams, keel stem etc, strip planked with two layers of Mahogany and three layers of vectra in epoxy outside. Laminated frames where chainplates attach to the hull...epoxy was T-88 throughout. When the keel was attached I bored the holes 1/4 inch oversized and really plastered the inside of the hole with epoxy, then inserted a 1/8th inch wall fiberglass - epoxy pipe in the hole. The keel bolts were inserted in the lead when cast. The exterior of the hull at the keel attachement surface had six layers of vetcra/epoxy on it, then an underwater seam compound and the bolts were pulled up tight against stainless backing plates inside the boat. She has never leaked a drop. The keel was then covered with four layers of Vectra and epoxy and faired.
The boat is now laid up at the Nickolaev Shipyard (actually a small yard adjacent to Nickolaev) Near Odessa, Ukraine. I have the interior being removed and a new layout being constructed for a single person or couple liveaboard and cruising. Ta'ana Mari is a 44 foot version of Lyle Hess Bristol Channel Cutter. I have been led to believe that my keel attachement was not proper and there should be some sort of barrier or other means of properly attaching the keel....Help........I didn't know better and it looked good to me.......What should be the best way to "re-do" the keel?
and Cleek...I assume you got the most recent prints that I sent you...how do you like the "new Ta'ana Mari layout....?
[This message has been edited by paladinsfo (edited 09-26-2001).]
Hi Paladin, a couple of questions first. Other than the laminated frames in way of the chain plates that you mention what else does the boat have for internal structural members? Floor timbers? Keelson(s)? Bilge stringers? Diagonal strapping? Who led you to believe that the present keel installation is "improper"? What exactly is improper about it? Is the ballast keel simply bolted thru the top of the wood keel and not thru any other internal wood structural members? What exactly is meant by this "barrier" that you mentioned in your post? How is the mast stepped? What material are your keel bolts made from?
09-26-2001, 02:34 PM
The boat stuff can wait.
I wanna know how the vessel wound up in Odessa first?
And as usual RGM poses some good questions.
[This message has been edited by Dave Fleming (edited 09-26-2001).]
09-26-2001, 03:11 PM
National secret Dave.
And yes, No me gusta la problema. Say more. From what you've said, I think sealing the whole shebang in less than impervious layers of cloth and epoxy might point to future problems, as water is inevitable. Sealing wood is one thing, joints between cast keels and wood substrate another. Who is saying what?
[This message has been edited by ishmael (edited 09-26-2001).]
09-26-2001, 04:43 PM
I'd say it's grossly over-engineered, by traditional building practice, which is why it probably made it from Thailand to Odessa and still doesn't leak a drop! LOL Usually, the sheathing would not be carried down over the ballast keel, as there is no purpose to it, really. The lead is impervious and, if you scrape bottom, the sheathing on the bottom of the ballast keel is history anyway. Same for the sleeves around the keel bolt holes. They really don't do anything except provide two avenues for leaks, one between the sleeve and the keel bolt and one between the sleeve and the keel. Filling both with goop takes care of that problem, and really isn't any different than having twice the number of keel bolts, leak-wise. Since you bedded the keel well when it was attached, you have what amounts to a "belt and suspenders" job, and you are still holding your pants up with both hands! If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
The only other question I would ask is: How thick are the stainless plates (washers) inside the keel that your bolts bear on? What are their overall dimensions? If the ballast is well supported thus and the hull is well connected across the keel I would not expect any problems soon.
09-26-2001, 06:43 PM
The only "problems" I could forsee would have to do with encapsulated stainless IF there were an electrolite (water) present. Given your layup, that does not seem likely to occur, as long as you stay off of rocks and reefs. Better than normal maintainance, as with any cored construction, keeping right after any cracks or dings, making certain no modifications violate the barrier, you should get several hundred years out of her. As long as you don't ever have to pass customs to bring her back here, and no hired help sabotage your carefull work, there should be no trouble. As long as all compartments are easily accessable, even those vile oafs at customs inspection shouldn't be able to do much damage. Let 'em find one of those LAWS rockets you've got built into a secret stash, and all bets are off!
09-26-2001, 11:29 PM
Hee...hee... They know about the LAWS and the two bandoleers of M-79 HE..........
The boat has traditional laminated floors and the keel bolts are 1 1/8 inch with 5/16 stainless backing plates across the tops of the floors. The floors are epoxied in place and have drift pins through to the keel...the drift pins are .250 carbon fiber rods like used in heavy cement reinforcments. The inside of the hull is two layers of kevlar in epoxy, the hull is strip planked 1 3/4 in juniper(equal) with two layers of Mahogany veneers over that. There are bilge stringers at the floor perimeter, all the bulkheads and furniture are taped in with several glass/epoxy tapes. The mast is set on a very massive laminated plank supported off the keel about 4 inches by a pair of heavy laminated planks that run over several floors. I was under the impression that I should have put tarred felt or something between the keel and the glassed wood bottom of the boat.....Hey ..I read some books..O.K.
Dave...sweet thing wuz there....she's a Doctor at the local hospital. If I could figure out how to post pictures...I would.
[This message has been edited by paladinsfo (edited 09-26-2001).]
09-27-2001, 05:25 AM
I must admit I dont know much and others definantly know a lot more... but this sounds like an armoured plated hull to me! She sounds bomb proof... not boob proof but definantly bomb proof!
Take it easy
As Ive heard elsewhere if it aint broke dont mess with it... and this sure dont sound broke to me!... good routine maintaince should take care of any problems as they arise.
09-27-2001, 05:36 AM
Hi there, Shane,
Well on the topside of the world "Boobs" has more than one meaning....if you refer to idiots in boatyards...I don't let anyone make any unauthorized field modifications on my boat...if you refer to those soft warm bumpers that most women have on the front side, well those have been known to be aboard also.. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif
09-27-2001, 08:32 AM
Its the same down here mate!
Boobs should be banned from any good boatyard... one sort is just plain dangerous to the boats themselves and those who build and sail them and the other is simply downright dangerous distracting and well....... lovely that they are.... no work gets done with them around... http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif
Its good that you realise what I meant there mate http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif Keep the boobs away while any modifications are underway... although I dont think any are needed given the info above... and they will be done without distraction and avoidable mistakes... plenty of time for boobs of the best kind after shes back on the water!! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif
Take it easy
Disclaimer... No offence of predjudice was made in the construction of this posting... I actually like all boobs of the soft warm frontal portions of the human female anatomy kind... so any offence taken was not encouraged or alluded too.
09-27-2001, 12:28 PM
Boobs aside, well on the side, if ya folla?
I am NO expert on goos but, the general practice in regular woodenboat construction was to lay a layer or two of Irish Felt set in either 'bear ****e' or thick red lead paint between the ballast keel and the wooden keel. Supposed to make up for any slight irregularities between the two surfaces and act a some form of barrier between two different materials with expansion and contraction the issue. That second really does not penetrate this old bald 'haid' but the first makes some sense and of course would help in keeping the damn worms away from a free lunch/dinner/mid-night snack.
How was ever a vessel built before Petro-chemicals? I wonder?
09-28-2001, 10:36 PM
So... either your original construction is still working or it isn't. Which is it? It makes a difference.
Is the boat really in Sevastapol, or Ablantos, or some such former Soviet shipyard?
[This message has been edited by ishmael (edited 09-28-2001).]
09-29-2001, 08:25 AM
Yes, Jack...it normally is parked right where sweet thing is sitting. Right now the interior is being removed and a new layout installed. There is no visible problems with the hull or keel, but since she's on the hard for a few months I thought that now would be the time to correct any potential boo boo's that I made when she was being built. The Nikolaev shipyard is near Odessa, quite a ways from Sevastopol. There are numerous small shops but they seem to all build in metal or fiverglas, there's no wooden boatbuilding or molding as such being carried on......the fellows are cabinetmakers and interior builders that are doing the work on Ta'ana mari....their salary is higher than the 88 cents a day I paid in Thailand. These guys are really high priced at about $250 a month.
[This message has been edited by paladinsfo (edited 09-29-2001).]
09-29-2001, 11:08 AM
Sorry about my flippancy Chuck. You have to admit your life is 'Ludlum-esque'(as in the spy/thriller novelist) at times. I'm glad someone is doing it so we Walter Mittys have something to fantasize about.
I would say, if your original construction ain't broke, don't fix it. Inspection of the sheathing for bubbling or any water intrusion would be in order, but unless you find something bad it sounds like your original work, worked.
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